◊ Quigon

As for T5 - its still great even with expertise, especially for trash and mobs that don't hit that hard. Remember, the most important part of your entire week in farm mode is trash, not the bosses. You probably shouldn't be chugging around in full Tier 6 against trash, but hey - whatever works for you. I think Edgewalker uses no shield sometimes when tanking.

 

Mem

I've banked my T5 nowadays. For trash a mix of expertise/hit (heroic badges and tier 6 non set loots) will suffice for threat concerns in my experience. Pushing a little bit block value isn't wrong as well. The most important part is imho to reduce your avoidance to have a steady rage flow. Your hit and expertise will guarantee that you will use it pretty efficiently.

 

KooZ

Since I don't have any real T6 loot as of yet -just the gloves- and got my T5 head finally I use the T5 set for trash and heroics, just to push TPS. I took the plunge and stacked 34 AP/16 hit on my helmet, let's see how BT bosses and TPS go now.

 

Kyron_LB

For a Fury prot hybrid spec, using arena legs (of any season) in dps-tanking gear (i.e not high mitigation set), would it be best to use nethercleft leg armor or nethercobra leg armor?

 

Enkidu

I've been trying out some varied sets recently, and came up with a good example for how powerful avoidance can be once gear allows your worse case TTL to be somewhat unchanged while still having such high avoidance.
Enk - WWS

That's 765 incoming melee DPS from Mother, most MT healers ended the fight at full/near full mana. The hp loss wasn't really a huge hit since as mentioned previously by Maraudor, with T6 you can have the cake and eat it too when it comes to mitigation. The oh shit keys were never really needed but they were used on bad ports just the same. It was a lot less spikey than my 65-70% avoidance sets on other nights. Overall it was a very thumbs up experience, though the only thing that kept my cycle going at times were those lucky white swing crits.

There are also parses there for Teron and Naj'entus in variations of crush proof sets (Teron with a bit more expertise and hit), which is something I really do recommend people try out atleast once when they have enough T6 pieces to make it viable (~500 HP loss from my threat set, which is really just the trinket slot), it just feels a lot more solid and I can see why Dawts likes it so much. On a related note, Tidewalker in a crush proof set felt a lot smoother on the intake. Enk - WWS

 

Xav

What was your gear for the Shahraz WWS link? 80% avoidance seems unnaturally high, to the point where it seems like you may have just gotten extraordinarily lucky in a standard high avoidance suit. In the set I wear for mother, which is all avoidance/mitigation pieces, I averaged 66.6% avoidance for the fight. Xavastrasz - WWS
I'm not wearing the best possible avoidance options though, and I could definitely add about 3-4% dodge if I wore the best avoidance things. Do you have dodge gems in some alternate gear pieces, to get that extra 10%+?

 

Enkidu

I had a Major Agility pot and GoA (though not at the start) above the standard raid buffs. Most of the gems are stamina, a few are dodge/hybrids. I used pocket watch every cooldown/time I got hit and mongoose had a decent up time. It is about 68% unbuffed avoidance. Basically 3 piece T6, engi helm since I lack the faceplate, kael quest neck, supremus shoulder/ring, tidewalker ring, pocket watch, shadowmoon insignia and badges cloak (even if armory did work I'm currently fury and would not log out in that gear anyway). I did choose Brutalizer over Sun Eater. There was a bit of luck involved - but in that set and those buffs during mongoose it's near or past 80% avoidance with the NE racial. Wearing the set nets me about 700 less hp. Since threat was a none issue on that specific fight even with this set, next time I'll try T5 helmet with the exalted MH ring.

Moroes' Pocket Watch should really be on a must have list, since its on use scales so much better than any other trinket currently available, in extreme situations it can leave you with only 5-10% to be hit, total.

 

Xav

Yeah sounds like you just got a little bit lucky then, I always use Agi elixirs when raiding for the threat and avoidance boost in one consumable, and the rest of the gear you listed is the same, exception being Faceplate for me, and not using Supremus shoulders (DE'd them, actually going to pick them back up with an avoidance enchant on them next time they drop). I've been getting GoA, most of the time at least, although not on some of the more recent logs. You're going to have 1% more than us regardless cause of NE racial though!

 

Amathal

Hey guys, sorry if this has already been brought up, but the TPS sheet from the first page doesn't have expertise rating. I'm looking over it trying to figure out how to reduce dodge/parry of the mob, but it isn't working. Anyone know how to go about that?

Edit: Eeep, I forgot that the TPS spreadsheet was a link to another thread, not in this thread itself, which explains why it wasn't addressed anywhere here :P It is over in that other thread though.

 

◊ Quigon

This is an important point about damage on the main tank, and healer mana.

Even if most of Shahraz healing is on other people, having the main tank reduce their incoming damage will make a huge difference on healer's final mana.

Healers actually ride a very tight line between going oom and casting forever - this was very obvious for certain strategies with Patchwerk, and balancing output to input (regen) was critically important. So removing some damage from the equation puts them at basically infinite mana.

In EQ this was more straightforward cause there wasn't a 5 second rule, but an example might be:

(totally arbitrary):
You spend 325 mana per second, you regen 300 mana per second. At 5000 mana, you will run out of mana in 3 minutes 20 seconds, or 200 seconds.

If you gain 12.5 mana per second, you'll spend 325, and regen 312.5 - with 5000 mana you'll last twice as long, going out of mana in just under 7 minutes, or 400 seconds. So by going up just 4% in regen, you're lasting 100% longer.

Add another 12.5 mana per second, and your regen will match your expenditure, and you'll cast forever.

Tanks have the ability to reduce a healer's expenditure, and even if it may not seem like it - under normal, practical conditions, this balance of regen and expenditure is very close and just a bit more avoidance can turn a group from going oom into stabilizing or sitting around 90-100% the entire fight.
Anyway thats just an example to show how it works out - on Patchwerk when we planned healing assignments I calculated expenditures and regen for an entire 7 minutes, and it actually came out to be within 3% or so of exact... but then again patchwerk was very reliable on what you were going to be doing.

 

Diamedes

This is a great thread and I read through the various macros a lot of you use, and that a lot of people don't like macros at all. What Ive noticed is I prefer not using them on trash because I usually have to make decisions on how to use my rage but on bosses it helps a lot since theres more going on and you have a lot more rage to work with.

I noticed personally using combat monitor that I take about 6% crushing blows on bosses trying to manually keep up shield block and using a macro that has shield block in it my crushings are always less than 3%, sometimes just taking 1 or 2 CBs the whole fight. Anyways, currently I just use /castrandom Shield Slam, Revenge and /cast Shield Block on the next line and throw in devastates,thunderclaps, and demo shouts as needed. This works decently but I know sometimes I only get 3 out of 4 moves in a 6 second window because of human error. Ive tried a cast sequence and that doesn't work well because it hangs up if you hit low rage and won't start over till the macro is finished, I would just like something that does shield slam revenge, devastate in that order every time so that I can basically spam that as my threat key while watching my debuffs on the mob and paying attention to other aspects of the fight instead of a perfect threat rotation.

 

Badboi

Very nice thread indeed.

I was wondering if you could expand the TPS Gear section abit. What would be the 2nd best option to t5 4set for example? Not everyone still has access to TK, without buying loot from other guilds. Never had a chance to get t5 chest myself, and I doubt my guild would want to go back for a small tps upgrade for my threat-gear. Currenlty aiming for 4set t6 with [Gauntlets of Enforcement] + the avalible expertice items and [Madness of the Betrayer]

Also think the Consumables part is a bit vague. Adding some info on e.g tps gain from various elixirs and foods would be great under the X. Maximizing your Aggro – The Aggressive Style Section

 

Xav

What you have in mind is fine, 4 piece T6 + Gauntlets of Enforcement is excellent for threat, you can pull more threat than is ever needed using that setup. You should have a threat weapon, in your case, The Brutalizer with executioner on it is your best bet.

Euro Armory is very slow currently so I can't check your profile, but I imagine you're more than able to kill Zul'jin, and thus get the chestguard from him. You can socket hit or whatever you need in that for a nice threat chest before you get 4 piece T6. The main things you want in a threat suit are maximizing your chance to hit via expertise, and hit. Then you can get crit, armor pen, block value in extra slots.

For consumables, Major Agility is most likely the highest TPS gain by far, followed by Major Strength, but that's just a guess.

 

Badboi

Using 4set T6 with [Faceplate of the Impenetrable] and [The Unbreakable Will] at the moment. But thats part of my mitigation set. [The Brutalizer] simply hasnt dropped yet.Was thinking I would swap out Faceplate for T6 so I can use [Gauntlets of Enforcement] without breaking 4set bonus (For Threat gear of course). I have the Chest from ZA laying around, but there is no point in using that and 3 parts t5 (Never bothered picking up t5 head either)

 

Reliknom

Actually you'd be better off using [Faceplate of the Impenetrable], [Gauntlets of Enforcement] and the rest T6, than using only 1 offset item and 4pc T6. The 10% shieldslam bonus damage really isn't that much, but the 21 expertise rating and the faceplate's stats are awesome. It has been said earlier, but T6 helm is 1 of the most awfully designed items in the game, it's actually worse than T5 for tanking.

"Morituri Nolumus Mori!"

 

Badboi

I would think [Onslaught Greathelm] and the 4 set bonus is better for pure TPS, than [Faceplate of the Impenetrable], and no set bonus. Correct me if im wrong. Surely 23 str + 28agi > 10 Block Value in terms of Threat

I will still use Faceplate for the heavy hitters ofc, but im talking about maximizing TPS here

 

◊ Quigon

I wouldn't say that as its just not true - nor is it for any setup.
I would say you will pull enough threat to accomplish your goals with the 4 piece T6 + Gauntlets. It is a superb alternative.

The onslaughtt greathelm is definitely an increase in threat over the illidan faceplate - especially when you are gaining 4 piece tier 6. This is just another example of sacrificing mitigation for more threat. Hence why my guide takes this to what I feel is the logical extreme. Both sets of gear can act as mitigation and aggro - or aggro and mitigation. However, I think each is distinguished and has a strong purpose.

Don't just get stuck with 1 set of gear - be versatile... some waves of trash in Hyjal for instance it is greatly beneficial to wear some SR.

 

Xav

I really don't understand you saying "It's not true" and then not explaining how it isn't true besides saying "Oh, it's good though". Personal experience/bad luck? ("It isn't true for any setup" - uh, I was talking a threat setup, what else does it have to comply with?)

I suppose we're just going to have to disagree, my threat suit is 4 piece T6 with the gauntlets of enforcement, and I can pull enough threat to never, ever need to take off gear or downgrade further. That's why I've permanently banked T5. As for Faceplate, it's simply an extremely good item, but since wearing it and gauntlets will break the 4 piece, and the loss of AP/Crit to put it on, it's a significant loss of threat gen. It should be obvious by now that any warrior is going to have multiple gearsets and then to further change them based on the encounters, but I'll stand by 4 piece T6 + Gauntlets while using the rest of the proper threat pieces as being an excellent option that keeps above average survivability and more than enough threat.

 

Ihmes

Change of topic:

I got crit today by Tyrantus, lvl71 dinosaur in netherstorm. With 505 defense. >Screen<

And one weapon for consideration, as Brutalizer doesn't drop: [Umbral Shiv]. 60 stamina on one-handed weapon is nice. Pushing for 20k ub hp for fun ;P

 

Xav

Tyrantus might have a higher than normal crit chance, no reason to beat a dead horse in this thread about how you can get crit above the defense cap.

 

Ihmes

Afaik the crits over def cap were indeed hit by mobs that people think they have "higher than normal crit rate". But it would help if there was some sort of list for those mobs. And how many other ppl have been crit by the devilsaur?

- Instructors in SL
- Assassins in BT?

 

◊ Quigon

Because its not true? The point was your wording - or use of English. You qualified it as always being You're simply going to run into streaks where you do not generate much rage - the more avoidance you have, the greater the possibility for this. There is a reasonable probability, especially on mobs that aren't hitting often or hard, that you will not have enough rage in a situation where the DPS is bursting hard. Unless of course you think that it is impossible to miss 5-10 swings in a row, and be missed for 5-10 swings in a row. I mean, thats not an issue of opinion. The same holds true for being naked, or wearing T5 or T6...

I think you just need to be more realistic with your qualifiers. How I reworded it is fair. "I would say you will pull enough threat to accomplish your goals with the 4 piece T6 + Gauntlets. It is a superb alternative."
It is an issue of semantics, and plainly stated as such - you really didn't need the entire argument justifying it as I'm well aware of that 1000 times over - it wasn't as if I attacked your gear choice did I?

 

Xav

It's kind of silly to make exceptions to every statement with the obvious factor in mind that you can always lose the RNG regardless of what you're wearing. ("A fully geared T6 level destro warlock will do amazing DPS, unless, of course, your 1% chance to resist bites in you in the ass for 20 seconds straight").

Likewise it's pretty standard to say that wearing a threat suit designed for threat will give you the proper stats and rage income needed to out-threat anyone in any situation. You don't really have to say "Oh, unless of course you just dodge everything for 20 seconds anyway even though your avoidance is diminished"

The random-chance occurances that make WoW unpredictable are present just about always, and something that goes without saying.

It's not an issue of english or wording, it's just a "duh" factor.

 

◊ Quigon

Meh, I'm deleting this post cause this argument is kinda pointless.

 

Borodin

Actually 10 Block Value is more threat than 23 Strength (tiny) and 28 Agility (almost zero).
Using Threatdown I get: 10 BV about 2.5 TPS; 23 Strength + 28 Agility about 1.4 TPS.

It still holds true that for Threat the order of importance is Expertise > Hit > Block Value and not a lot else worth considering.

Tier 6 4-Piece Bonus
I played about with the Threatdown sheet to see if I could work out the TPS gain from using 4/5 Tier 6 (since this is a decision I will face very imminently). My figures showed a mere 10 TPS with my typical MT gear of around 480 net Block Value (varies from 300 - 930 depending on setup).

Various tests of this, TankPoints and just plain looking at the items has led me to the following conclusion:

The Tier 6 4-piece bonus is not worth using except in a pure "Shield Slam Damage" set (perhaps something you might PvP in!) and should be sacrificed in favour of 2 or 3/5 T6 + Faceplate of the Impenetrable and Gauntlets of Enforcement.
(the Praetorian's Legguards being a reasonable alternative to Onslaught Legguards).

Comments:
The Expertise on the Gauntlets of Enforcement is worth more Threat than the 4 piece bonus so don't swap out the Gloves for Tier 6.
The Tier 6 Gloves are better mitigation-wise than Gauntlets but depending on how you rate Expertise for Mitigation this is difference is probably not significant.
The Faceplate of the Impenetrable is hugely better as a Mitigation Helm than the T6 Helm.

Probably the same conclusions many have made already but I was still shocked at how poor the 4-piece bonus was in terms of TPS.