The Protection Guide - Page 27

Ihmes · 01/30/08, 6:49 AM

Complete change of topic again :>

The original guide says:
1 stamina = 11.0 HP with max vitality for Tauren warriors (you did assume additive? why?)

However, isn't the correct amount 1*1,05*10*1,05=11,025, rather than plain 11? Does WoW handle the rounding correctly (as in rounding in the end for correct final hp amount) or does it do the roundings somewhere in between so the 0,025 doesn't matter? Ran into this when calculating stamina break-point for paladins having more hp than warriors.

My calculations:
Warrior base hp+stamina*TAUREN stamina scale%=paladin base hp+stamina*stamina scale%

4700+11,025x=3400+11,66x
1300=0,635x
x=~2050

(scaling: 1 sta*1,05(vitality)*10(sta -> hp)*1,05(tauren racial) for tauren warrior, 1 sta*1,06(sacred duty)*1,1(combat expertise)*10(sta -> hp) for paladin)

Non-tauren: (scaling: 1*1,05*10 for warrior, 1*1,06*1,1 for paladin)

4700+10,5x=3400+11,66x
1300=1,16x
x=~1120

Anyone noticed that char screen says amount of HP differently than it's assumed? Naked it says 141 sta, "Increases health by 1230", that's just ~8,7 hp per stamina.

Any ideas?

Havuc · 01/30/08, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Reliknom

5/5 Anticipation gives you 20 defense skill. That's 20*0,04% = 0,8% +chance to be missed, +dodge, +parry and +block. (Also -chance to be crit but we're all above 490 def already, aren't we?) So really that 20 def skill is not 0,8% but 3*0,8% = 2,4% pure avoidance and 0,8% block chance which gets better the more block value you have and the less mobs hit you for. Or you could say it's +3,2% chance not to be crushed, which is something a lot of people seem to like nowadays.

Point well taken. I didn't consider that. I'll have to give it further consideration now.

Thank you as well.

galzohar · 01/30/08, 12:29 PM

Also it is far from impossible to drop under 490 defense without anticipation, at least with certain gear setups, and especially with all the items out there that are great for tanking but have no/low defense.

Kannala · 01/30/08, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ihmes

The original guide says:
1 stamina = 11.0 HP with max vitality for Tauren warriors (you did assume additive? why?)

However, isn't the correct amount 1*1,05*10*1,05=11,025, rather than plain 11? Does WoW handle the rounding correctly (as in rounding in the end for correct final hp amount) or does it do the roundings somewhere in between so the 0,025 doesn't matter? Ran into this when calculating stamina break-point for paladins having more hp than warriors.

Correct, for Tauren warriors with vitality the value of 1 raw stamina is 11.025 hp (12.075 with blessing of kings). Not sure about where stuff gets rounded off though.

Originally Posted by Ihmes

My calculations:
Warrior base hp+stamina*TAUREN stamina scale%=paladin base hp+stamina*stamina scale%

Remember tauren bonus doesn't scale your stamina, it scales your hp after hp from stamina has been factored

Warrior Total Health = R*(H + S*V*c)

where R is the racial bonus, H is your health not from stamina (base health + enchants + raw hp buffs such as commanding shout), S is your stamina (gear, enchants, stamina buffs such as PW:F), V is the vitality scaling factor, and c is the normal ratio of hp to stamina (10).

galzohar · 01/30/08, 1:45 PM

Do you ever MT without kings?
Or in other words, I'd take kings for granted and not as "(oh and it's 12 with kings)".

Kannala · 01/30/08, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Do you ever MT without kings?

No, which is why I explicitly mentioned it.

Edgewalker · 01/30/08, 3:49 PM

Please stop referring to expertise as an agro statistic. Currently it is, in my opinion, the best mitigation statistic as well simply because it reduces mob swing time increases where nothing else can. Tanks with the luxury of discussing whether or not we should wear T6 Helmet or Faceplate of the Impenetrable certainly should never come close to dying from anything but a parry chain and some bad luck, on really anything in the game.
You shouldn't use Enforcement of fights solely where you want good TPS, you should wear them pretty much every time, in every situation as an MT. Same with Brooch, same with Brutalizer. The only fight with any exception to this is Gurtogg, where I will drop some expertise in favor of raw avoidance.

Xav · 01/30/08, 4:42 PM

Of course it's a great mitigation statistic, but I think in general people are going to use it initially for the threat purposes. Parry-gib deaths, in my experience at least, are almost always because of parries from some other source, not my own. Any other source's parries are going to be mitigated against by every other defensive stat, except our own expertise. So, straight mitigation/avoidance stats in the way of Armor, Dodge, Parry, Defense are still quite good even in slots that they share with expertise items.

The effects of haste on bosses due to parries is also not nearly as large on those that are weaker hitting, and that's another situation where normal avoidance stats will probably be more beneficial for mitigation than expertise.

I'd say the only two bosses where them parrying attacks can be dangerous is Azgalor and Gorefiend, Azgalor just due to his raw damage and the silence, and Gorefiend because he turns around a lot. (In which case your avoidance will be better)

Finally, some people may have enhanced their expertise-related items for less defensive attributes (enchants, gems, etc), and their mitigation related ones for more defensive attributes, which will further separate them.

Buiden · 01/30/08, 8:21 PM

Originally Posted by Edgewalker

Please stop referring to expertise as an agro statistic. Currently it is, in my opinion, the best mitigation statistic as well simply because it reduces mob swing time increases where nothing else can. Tanks with the luxury of discussing whether or not we should wear T6 Helmet or Faceplate of the Impenetrable certainly should never come close to dying from anything but a parry chain and some bad luck, on really anything in the game.
You shouldn't use Enforcement of fights solely where you want good TPS, you should wear them pretty much every time, in every situation as an MT. Same with Brooch, same with Brutalizer. The only fight with any exception to this is Gurtogg, where I will drop some expertise in favor of raw avoidance.

Totally agree. I have gone to a 27 Expertise suit neck/bracer/glove + racial/defiance and I basically change gear for 2 fights in the game. RoS for block value, Gurtogg for pure avoidance. It is in my opinion the most versatile tanking suit available.

Havuc · 01/31/08, 12:11 AM

Something I noticed I never knew before just came to my attention that I would like to dicuss.

Conqueror's Battlegear. (the AQ warrior set)
The 5 piece set bonus is: Increase the Slow effect and the damage of Thunder Clap by 50%.

Now I'm not suggesting the tank uses this, but instead a fury warrior running Tank buffing mob debuffing skills (max Imp TC, Max Demo, Max Commanding, etc.) to compliment the main tank. The fury's job is basically there to be a buffer/debuffer tool.

Now my question becomes, wouldn't that stack with Imp TC? Allowing for the mob/boss to be slowed in their attacks by almost 70%? With the recharge timing of shield block = 5 sec. How many bosses could possibly have their normal attack speeds reduced to 2.5 secs or longer, or close too that? I say 2.5 since ISB stops 2 attacks so we just divide the 5 sec recharge by two I guess? Unfortunately I can't find a place where attack speeds are listed for various mobs. (Anyone know of one?)

So considering this debuff, how much would this add to the tanking ability of a Warrior Tank? I'm not good at crunching the numbers like a lot of you here are. So can someone break this down for me? What would we be looking at in improvement performance wise for the main tank who fights a mob/boss debuffed with this? I'm wondering if it would even allow a tank to become.. well.. uncrushable, without having to sacrifice so much to become so.

Help?

Xav · 01/31/08, 1:30 AM

It increases the actual skill's effectiveness by 50%, so it goes from 20% to 30%. Actually it might not even work off the talent, not really sure. Checking the spell's info on thott it seems like the set bonus is already setup to work like the way a talent augments an ability, so it might stack on top of it.

It's going to be a damage reduction at the cost of a mostly wasted player in the raid. If it was actually a massive boost like 20->70%, it would be something everyone already used.

Skyeh · 01/31/08, 1:51 AM

I searched, and couldn't really find a good answer, so I figured I'd try posting here in this thread.

We were clearing Illidari Council trash today, and I noticed I was crit. Being I thought I was crit immune (above 490 defense) this really confuses me. Do the Illidari Assassins have some sort of crit boost ability, or did something happen that never should happen?

Here's a screenshot I got of the event. Any insight would be appreciated. =)

Thanks

http://www.lunaranime.org/Crit.jpg

◊ Quigon · 01/31/08, 1:53 AM

For the TC bonus:
Assuming that it stacks off the talent it might be decent, but even then that but 30% slow is no longer 30% less damage taken. Its about 23%...
Its X/(X+100) for people who care.

Default is about 17%. Not a bad difference - but it only affects swing timers. I'd be aiming more for what Edgewalker is talking about anyway.

I'm wondering if it even stacks, but it shouldn't beat 4Pc T6 +enforcement.

As to the above picture - did you accidentally hit your /sit macro?

Xav · 01/31/08, 2:35 AM

Astonishingly, the Illidari Assassins have a higher than normal crit chance, just like all the other rare mobs that will crit you but are otherwise irrelevent.

Skyeh · 01/31/08, 2:49 AM

Ah. I was just curious, as I've never seen a crit pop up on my screen when tanking before. Maybe I was just being unobservant, but I had always read that as long as I had 490 def, I was safe from crits.

Thanks for the quick responce. Sorry about the size of the picture, I'm a amateur at forum posting.

I do occasionally hit my /sit macro when tanking easy bosses like winterchill to keep the healers on their toes.

Oh, and thanks for writing an amazing guide Quigon. While I consider myself an accomplished tank, it was a pleasure reading through it, and I had never considered using shield bash for aggro as you described. It's definitely nice to have a place to send people who ask me for tanking suggestions.

Spuddelkopf · 01/31/08, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by Skyeh

I had never considered using shield bash for aggro as you described.

Regarding this point I have one question that bothers me: If I am in a low rage situation, shouldn't I use only those skills with most threat per rage like listed in the OP?

Originally Posted by Quigon

In terms of threat per rage:
Revenge > Shield slam > Devastate > Heroic Strike

(That also means to me using anything else than Revenge/Shield Slam only if I generate more rage than I can spend on these skills because of cooldowns)
Is Shield Bash missing in the list and should be sitting in between Shield Slam and Devastate? Because if it is not I will lose threat in the long term by using Shield Bash. Or do I miss something?

szgeti · 01/31/08, 6:19 AM

Originally Posted by Spuddelkopf

Regarding this point I have one question that bothers me: If I am in a low rage situation, shouldn't I use only those skills with most threat per rage like listed in the OP?

The point of Shield Bash really boils down to keeping steady TPS. If you have less than 9 rage, and Revenge is on cooldown, you should use Shield Bash rather than not use anything for a second or two until you have the rage to do something else. It's mainly about never wasting a GCD.

Spuddelkopf · 02/01/08, 6:53 AM

So I'm right in that it essentially means I would sacrifice threat in the long run to not risk losing aggro while waiting for rage to Shield Slam/Devastate? And that I should not do so if I knew losing aggro in that time frame couldn't happen (perhaps because DDs need to focus on something else for a while)?

galzohar · 02/01/08, 7:22 AM

Remember that just becuase you're rage starved *right now*, it doesn't nescessarily mean you won't be hitting 100 rage within the next 5 seconds.

Elderin · 02/01/08, 12:17 PM

I may have a dumb question.

We have a Prot Warrior and we want to maximize his DPS while he remains Protection. We need him to continue to tank Karazhan, but we need him to DPS in Gruul's Lair and SSC.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a spec that will maximize a Warrior's DPS while allowing him to MT Karazhan?

Nezralix · 02/01/08, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Elderin

I may have a dumb question.

We have a Prot Warrior and we want to maximize his DPS while he remains Protection. We need him to continue to tank Karazhan, but we need him to DPS in Gruul's Lair and SSC.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a spec that will maximize a Warrior's DPS while allowing him to MT Karazhan?

Prot DPS shouldn't be that bad, but if that's really not working, then he can try a 0/31/30 build (with 1h spec, obviously). You're just losing 5% parry. And Devastate, which I think is pretty darn good.

pindle · 02/01/08, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

Prot DPS shouldn't be that bad, but if that's really not working, then he can try a 0/31/30 build (with 1h spec, obviously). You're just losing 5% parry. And Devastate, which I think is pretty darn good.

If he's good geared (which I guess he is then) I think he could do with alot less points in prot... maybe 15 is enough depending on the raid and his TPS skills.

Liar · 02/01/08, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

Prot DPS shouldn't be that bad, but if that's really not working, then he can try a 0/31/30 build (with 1h spec, obviously). You're just losing 5% parry. And Devastate, which I think is pretty darn good.

And Shield Slam and Focused Rage.

Just going with a normal prot build such as this (2 points free to put wherever) you can do some good DPS with Prot. As long as you pickup all the good talents that are great for DPS such as Cruelty, Focused Rage, Improved Sunder Armor, One-Hand Spec and Devastate you can't go wrong in the Prot DPS department really.

A build that picks up Anger Management and 2/3 Imp HS works, too.

Suesse · 02/01/08, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

Just going with a normal prot build such as this

I'd take 3 out of improved defensive stance. If your MT doesn't have improved demo, it's a good talent to pick up, allowing CoR without consequence. But really, devastate + whirlwind is actually pretty decent dps. If you use a bear or paladin MT, it keeps up sunder armor, which is a huge boost. Since you guys are at the tier 4 gear level, I suggest he gets a pair of S2 weapons for this dpsing, if he doesn't have them already.

Mode · 02/01/08, 1:46 PM

We have a Prot Warrior and we want to maximize his DPS while he remains Protection. We need him to continue to tank Karazhan, but we need him to DPS in Gruul's Lair and SSC.

1. Prot DPS is not as bad as it used to be. When I'm just out grinding on mobs, I do about 330 and I doubt my DPS set is better than whatever your warriors is. I've never actually DPSed as prot on any fight but Aran, but I usually hit 600ish DPS there. If a prot warrior goes full consumables and cooldowns with excellent gear on the right fight, they can theoretically top the DPS charts. An archimonde WWS was linked earlier in this thread to illustrate this.

2. If he's going to be DPSing on Gruul and SSC, have him respec to Fury. Really, why would you bring someone who's sort of a tank and sort of a DPS if he's only going to be DPSing?