The Protection Guide - Page 30

Havuc · 02/07/08, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by JamesVZ

Well there's the confusing part. Tactical Mastery for stance dancing berserker rage is wholly unneeded, it's a 0 rage ability, and if you're popping berserker rage at 50+ rage, you're doing it wrong. Tactical Mastery is used for flexibility, nothing more. When doing a 5 man and a mob peels off, you can switch to berserker stance, intercept, taunt, and shield slam immediately with 25 rage. Or if it's running away you can intercept->hamstring, or even execute if it's low enough. With 10 rage? Not so much. Beyond that flexibility the talent is useless, which is why you see a lot of upper end main tanks dropping it when they've done all their 5 man/badge stuff.

That, combined with anger management, combined with less than 5/5 cruelty, are three of my major pet peeves, especially when you essentially give up cruelty to get anger management. It just doesn't make any sense, for the reasons I've already laid out. Tanks need to stop doing that.

Precisely what TM is used for, for the most part. Already right there with you man. I SD during trash sometimes as well. I just like having in the event we have a bad pull or something so I can use it on trash for the same reasons you listed in 5mans. As you and I both know, it just gives you more options. I just found tossing it up while doing bosses, just lets me be more spammy in generating threat. It made it nice before, but now with the recent changes I've done with my tank builds, I don't see so much of a use for it on bosses for sure. Trash and 5 mans.. yeah sure sometimes I guess.

Trust me man, we are on the same page. I think you just misunderstood my more recent post is all.

Oh, and I wasn't giving up cruelty for AM, I was giving it up for TM. After more raiding last night, my threat generation over the course of the entire raid, never had problems with maintaining a very healthy lead. I'm sure from a raw numbers point of view 5/5 cruelty would show a difference, but I'm saying from an in-game perspective more threat wasn't even needed. The bonus I'd get from having 3% more crit chance.. just didn't seem worth it. I'm doing fine as is.

And as I pointed out, TM doesn't really seem to be necessary for me anymore either when raiding. Which is why I'm indicating my desire to probably put those 3 points into improved defensive stance. But the thing is, I also PvP as prot to keep the cost of respec'n down. And there AM helps a lot, as does TM. In the event I stop pvp'n, or raiding, I'll redo my build more appropriately for either. I'm just tired of the 30-45g respec fees. So what I got now is working for what I'm doing.

Fellwraith · 02/07/08, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Branar

After trying Mallet + Executioner, you're right - the difference is noticeable.

Now I have a new problem though, since a Swiftsteel Bludgeon dropped last night and no DPSers wanted it. The Mallet only takes me from 27 expertise to 30 (whether that's paperdoll error or actual truncation, I'm not sure). The Swiftsteel would move me from 119 hit rating to 138.

Which is better, given that Swiftsteel won't hit cap me (not yet, anyway)? I'm not sure what the value of expertise starts to look like (presumably it's reducing dodge to 0, and I'm only benefiting from parry reduction?) at that point anyway...

Swiftsteel is probably a better threat weapon for you at the opportunity cost of 0.75% mob parry. You'll be dodge capped with either weapon, so your net hit gain is greater with the bludgeon. For harder hitting bosses or survival fights I'd stick with the Mallet. For trash and easier bosses swiftsteel is a good option with its faster speed and higher AP; however, I don't think you gain anything from the additional +hit on trash.

What I basically did was pull points out of Cruelty to put into Tactical Mastery (for those that remember, I am a big supporter of Stance Dancing).

Tactical mastery is a lot more useful for non-prot tanks. For someone who's 41+ points deep in the prot tree, you'll get a lot more mileage from cruelty. Crit is actually pretty useful for tanking warriors (probably the 4th most important threat stat - after expertise, hit, and block value). By "stance dancing" I assume this isn't going into battlestance (or worse, 'zerker) to execute and that you're actually using it to get berzerker rage up. Your job as a tank is to stay alive first, generate threat second.

Anger Management is ultimately useless for protection warriors, and I will stand by that until they either change the functionality of the talent or the mechanics of rage generation *drastically*.

Personally I think AM is useful (fun fact: it generates rage during Kael cut sequences, Illidan cut sequences and when mobs are sitting there banished/sheeped), but I wouldn't go out of my way to pick up 11 points in arms to get it.

I think the main argument for it is that you're already 8 points into arms and the last 5-8 points of any tanking build are pretty subjective. Our guild runs warrior heavy, so imp demo isn't necessary for me. I'm sure there's times that AM saved me from a shear or a crushing blow because I had just enough rage to hit shieldblock after a string of avoidance. If you don't have 3-4 warriors per raid, then you should pick up imp demo shout.

Branar · 02/07/08, 3:44 PM

For harder hitting bosses or survival fights I'd stick with the Mallet.

In case you missed it, I also have an Unbreakable Will. I'll probably be using that (enchanted w/mongoose) on survival fights, and either Mallet or Swiftsteel on easy stuff. (Unless you were making the implicit argument that the expertise on the Mallet gives it more survivability than Unbreakable Will's got...)

With your points, I'm having trouble envisioning a situation where I'd use Mallet over the Swiftsteel. I guess if I get hit-capped with other gear it'd be better against easier bosses, where 0.75% less parry will continue providing value. On trash, it seems like Swiftsteel will pretty much always be superior given that both the hit and the expertise are likely to be of no value.

Thanks for the advice guys, this thread is a solid resource.

◊ Quigon · 02/08/08, 12:48 AM

I don't recommend an unbreakable will unless your healers are going OOM or something strange.

Typically you die from burst - go with max expertise. And guess what expertise is fantastic for your TPS also. It goes well beyond just increasing your white "DPS". Anyway, before the expertise changes, the best TPS weapon I believe was Mother Shahraz's sword. The best mitigation weapon was the unbreakable will. But things tend to change...

As to the crap about tactical mastery while tanking: AARGHGHGL...

seminarca · 02/08/08, 1:07 AM

Originally Posted by Xaviera

Seminarca: It adds to your shield slam damage, you can test it very easily, and any brief searches on the topic confirm that it adds to the damage components as well. Here's the spell data on it, Thottbot World of Warcraft: Shield Mastery where it shows all it does is mod your shield block value by a flat percent.

Originally Posted by Borodin

Both Shield Mastery and 1H Weapon Spec applies to Shield Slam damage.

Cool, thanks for the correction. That's what I get for listening to a Fury Warrior =/

And whereas previously I'd considered it a defensively minded optional talent, it's actually pretty much a must-have for any serious Prot build.

Chardonnay · 02/08/08, 4:23 AM

Originally Posted by Diamedes

I don't have the gear to really go over 50% avoidance but I know many in this thread do so Im wondering for those who have mixed and matched gear and played with various levels of avoidance(miss/dodge/parry combined), have you come up with a good amount that you're never taking crushes due to shield block being down but also not too high where you're being rage starved too badly?

There is no such amount - it depends on boss swing speed. For slow hitters like Gruul, Alar I prefer about 50% total avoidance (miss+dodge+parry), unless I'm really unlucky with parries I don't get crushed and my threat is fine.
For fast hitters like Morogrim I go for my max avoidance set. WWS showed a total of 72.6% avoidance on one of our tries and I still got crushed once every 2 minutes. You will get crushes from Morogrim unless you're a paladin or passive crush immune. He's just Prince phase2 on crack without the dw hit penalty...
However you definetly should not go much above 50% avoidance on slow hitters, I got crushed a lot when I had to take over Lurker Below tanking in full dodge gear. (MT died) I was just so rage starved I couldn't afford shieldblocking steadily.
I hope it helps a bit.

Fellwraith · 02/08/08, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Quigon

I don't recommend an unbreakable will unless your healers are going OOM or something strange.

Typically you die from burst - go with max expertise. And guess what expertise is fantastic for your TPS also. It goes well beyond just increasing your white "DPS". Anyway, before the expertise changes, the best TPS weapon I believe was Mother Shahraz's sword. The best mitigation weapon was the unbreakable will. But things tend to change...

Yea the only good use of unbreakable will that I can think of is as a Mother saberlash tank. Maybe on Supremus as a hateful tank. It's a decent tanking weapon, but expertise weapons are a lot better. If you could actually get parry-capped against bosses with the other expertise pieces, then it would be a much better option.

Branar · 02/10/08, 1:56 AM

If you could actually get parry-capped against bosses with the other expertise pieces, then it would be a much better option.

Certainly with the amount of expertise loot coming in Sunwell, it looks like that will be attainable. They're throwing it in all over the place.

Tylerlee · 02/10/08, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Branar

Certainly with the amount of expertise loot coming in Sunwell, it looks like that will be attainable. They're throwing it in all over the place.

No, you wont, have you seen the new loot? theres next to zero shield block rating on it, all the pieces, to me, are avoidance pieces, with a few exceptions, you will never get a valid set compiled from the new and existing expertise items, theres either too much avoidance, or too little block.

Ive already got near 85% avoidance in my dodge gear, adding all the new items in low avoidance slots, id be knocking on 90-95% and thats just unworkable threatwise anyway, no matter what Expertise you have.

Nyfe · 02/10/08, 12:48 PM

Looking over the new patch 2.4 items, from the heroic 5 man we see the Commendation Of Kael'thas. A trinket that gives 57 stamina and in addition an equip which reads: "Melee attacks which reduce you below 35% health cause you to gain 380 dodge rating for 10 seconds. Cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds."

While I'm still debating the usefulness of the equip, I could see wearing it for select occasions based on the stamina alone. I'd like to hear some other opinions on it though.

src: http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...ofkaelthas.jpg

Branar · 02/10/08, 1:43 PM

No, you wont, have you seen the new loot? theres next to zero shield block rating on it, all the pieces, to me, are avoidance pieces, with a few exceptions, you will never get a valid set compiled from the new and existing expertise items, theres either too much avoidance, or too little block.

Maybe agro will be a concern with that much avoidance, or maybe of the 6 new bosses, several will have high-damage magic attacks that generate plenty of rage. Or maybe there're several tier 6 quality badge loot options that shore up the low block value pieces.

It's a bit early to be complaining that their gear is poorly itemized when we haven't seen all the loot, or the encounters that you'll actually be gearing against yet.

So it won't be optimal to use a full Sunwell set to tank BT...does that really come as a great surprise? You don't take your full suit of tier 5 loot to Karazhan and have an easy time holding agro, either. Warriors have pretty much always had that issue.

While I'm still debating the usefulness of the equip, I could see wearing it for select occasions based on the stamina alone. I'd like to hear some other opinions on it though.

It seems pretty good to me. Obviously it suffers the same issue as Argent Defender in that it's possible to "leapfrog" and much more effective against smaller, frequent-hitters...but that basically describes most 5-man content in the game, and since it drops in a 5-man, it seems well-itemized.

Dots · 02/10/08, 6:16 PM

I would definitely use the Commendation of Kael'Thas + Shadowmoon Insignia for hard hitters where tank stats matter. For the few bosses of this type that T6 content has to offer, I'm still using DC:Vengeance anyways. The proc makes the new trinket a lot better though.

Agrimat · 02/11/08, 4:46 AM

Assuming a 10.6% boss parry rating, reaching parry cap with the new expertise gear is possible. I haven't totally internalized all the pieces available in all slots, but if you're looking for 168 rating, here's my thought on the best way to do it:

24: Defiance
28: [Onslaught Waistguard]
26: [Onslaught Boots]
40: [Felstrength Legplates]
21: [Gauntlets of Enforcement]
21: [The Brutalizer]
----------------
160 Expertise Rating

So, a little short still without adding in [Brooch of Deftness] or [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx] or [Steely Naaru Sliver] (will ideally prefer avoidance / mitigation gear in those slots). Time will tell what other tanking gear becomes available for those slots.

I'm fascinated to see what the next generation in tanking looks like after the Stamina (T4) -> Threat (T5) -> Avoidance (T6) progression we've seen so far.

Xav · 02/11/08, 5:12 AM

Boss parry is closer to 15%, I notice it to be around 13-14%.

Anyway, the Commendation of Kael'Thas is a phenomenal trinket, absolutely amazing stats. Huge HP boost, and then it has a 30 second cooldown on a superior dodge boost to even the Moroes Trinket. 35% HP when fully raid buffed currently is like 8k HP, a number that is a safe enough level that it should pretty much always "proc" when it would indeed be useful. Not to mention it's a server side proc so no amount of lag on your side will cause you to miss hitting it - which is possible with a manual avoidance trinket. This one will give you your dodge boost the milisecond the damage on the server takes you below 35%!

Shadowmoon Insignia + Commendation will no doubt be the best combo until we see later tanking trinkets.

Reliknom · 02/11/08, 8:26 AM

Looks like we'll get some +6 stamina socket boni for 1 red gem. What do you guys think, is that 5 agi worth loosing 2 sta?
Oh and the new (warrior/paladin) tank metagem is kinda OP, we'll just have to look for an acceptable socket bonus for the place of the 1 yellow (green) gem.

• Valoran · 02/11/08, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by Reliknom

Looks like we'll get some +6 stamina socket boni for 1 red gem. What do you guys think, is that 5 agi worth loosing 2 sta?
Oh and the new (warrior/paladin) tank metagem is kinda OP, we'll just have to look for an acceptable socket bonus for the place of the 1 yellow (green) gem.

I still plan to only use the meta for a threat set, rather than my normal avoidance tank set. At the moment I'm thinking of using a t6 hat with a ZG enchant and a 10 hit gem.

Rolapin · 02/11/08, 11:12 AM

I was trying to manage my macros when I thought of a new one for lazy fights or tank beginners :
It would allow to concentrate more on Demoralizing Shout / Thunder Clap.

/cast Shield Block
/castsequence reset=6 Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Devastate
/cast Heroic Strike

Would it really work on fights where you nearly have infinite rage ? Do you still need /stopcasting between /cast lines ?

Thanks on the input.

Mem · 02/11/08, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Xaviera

Anyway, the Commendation of Kael'Thas is a phenomenal trinket, absolutely amazing stats. Huge HP boost, and then it has a 30 second cooldown on a superior dodge boost to even the Moroes Trinket. 35% HP when fully raid buffed currently is like 8k HP, a number that is a safe enough level that it should pretty much always "proc" when it would indeed be useful. Not to mention it's a server side proc so no amount of lag on your side will cause you to miss hitting it - which is possible with a manual avoidance trinket. This one will give you your dodge boost the milisecond the damage on the server takes you below 35%!

Shadowmoon Insignia + Commendation will no doubt be the best combo until we see later tanking trinkets.

Well, at least there won't be a tank shortage for the heroic...this trinket is really insance, especially when considering where it drops. It scales nicely and additionally it can trigger 4 times as often as a pocketwatch user can archieve a similar effect. There is still the danger that extremely hard hitting mobs can leapfrog it but in general this shouldn't happen if you are fully potted and the mob is properly debuffed.

I'm also surprised by the way the tank itemization is swapped from hit to expertise. I also agree that the new tanking meta looks very very nice.

Borodin · 02/11/08, 12:00 PM

I don't know why it's surprising that Expertise is being itemized over Hit since it's exactly twice as effective threatwise until you hit the Dodge cap when it drops to merely "as effective". It's a lot harder to reach the Parry cap which is indeed around 15% for some bosses (Teron, Lord Sanguinar spring to mind).
The Anti-Parry aspect also makes Expertise a mitigation stat.

Assuming Hit Cap is 9%, Dodge 5.6% (it's more likely 6+) and Parry can be as high as 15%:

Tank Hit Rating is capped at 142 Hit Rating
Anti-Dodge is capped at 87.4 Expertise Rating excluding Defiance; 64 with Defiance
Anti-Parry is capped at 234 Expertise Rating excluding Defiance; 211 with Defiance

I am very much looking forward to piling on more Expertise in 2.4

Fellwraith · 02/11/08, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Mem

I'm also surprised by the way the tank itemization is swapped from hit to expertise. I also agree that the new tanking meta looks very very nice.

We were talking about this a bit yesterday and I think the take-away is that you start gemming for hit, since you can't gem for expertise. I'd be a lot happier about it if there was a stam/hit gem, but unfortunatley that's not the case.

The primary argument for having +hit is that it reduces your taunt resists, otherwise you're usually better off stacking expertise. However, overstacking expertise at the expense of other avoidance or mitigation stats still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Particularly when you look at special attacks like saberlash, hateful cleave, et al that aren't impacted at all by your parried attacks.

It's pretty easy to knock boss dodge off the table today, however, knocking parry off the table is extremely expensive. That's 147 itempoints you're effectively giving up. It could just as easily have been 147 dodge rating (7.8% dodge), 147 defense (7.35% avoidance, 9.8% crush reduction), 220 stamina (before modifiers like kings, tauren racial or vitality), or 1,470 Armor. Granted, we don't pick what stats we put on the armor, but all of this stuff comes at a cost. "Parry flurry" can be mitigated and avoided, the same as any other attack. Don't get me wrong, I love the stat, however, I'm not going to go out of my way to get it.

Njial · 02/11/08, 2:05 PM

Anyone else a bit irritated that there's not going to be an easy way to get capped at both expertise and hit without dropping serious stamina from gems by socketing hit in? It seems in Tier 6 and now Sunwell that Blizzard is in love with these pieces with massive mitigation that have very little else to offer?

Riot · 02/11/08, 2:13 PM

I have to agree with Mulack.

I think overstacking expertise at the expense of gibbing yourself of a good amount of Hit (at least 5%) or so is a waste. Parry gibs can and will happen. Even now, with just the expertise items in the game, it happens. But it happens rarely, and more often than not, the cause of the wipe is going to be because of human error.

Getting expertise capped doesn't solve the human error factor of you as a tank missing your potion or Last Stand buttons, it doesn't correct a healer moving to escape a laser or get a Naj'entus spine, doesn't correct a DPS pulling aggro and cleaving the raid or such.

Sometimes you get "Quigon-ed". Usually, once you get a good level of expertise, you don't.

Looking at the new items, I'm really excited that Blizzard IS putting a great deal of expertise on a lot of items, whilst still allowing you to maintain the four piece Onslaught bonus.

***
Conversely, I'm not excited about the Commendation as others are, for a few reasons. I agree with the Insignia as a first slot, but as for the second I think it's a tossup between the Steely Naaru Sliver, Commendation, and Scarab of Displacement, with the SNS edging out to best for me, since I don't plan to stack expertise to beyond hell and back.

The bottom line in my opinion is that while the Commendation is nice as a reactive oh-shit trinket, it is somewhat limited by having to be procced by a melee attack, and can still be leapfrogged entirely. What if a boss uses a combination of melee and magical attacks? I think it's a bit too early to annoint it as best-in-slot as of yet.
***

On another note, is anyone else completely disgusted with the try-out of Haste as a stat put on tanking items? I'm thankful that Blizzard is trying new things out, but I think that this one is completely foolhardy. Yes, white threat is significant, but it seems wasteful to me, as it seems to be a very, very expensive stat on the item budget.

Njial · 02/11/08, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Riot

On another note, is anyone else completely disgusted with the try-out of Haste as a stat put on tanking items? I'm thankful that Blizzard is trying new things out, but I think that this one is completely foolhardy. Yes, white threat is significant, but it seems wasteful to me, as it seems to be a very, very expensive stat on the item budget.

I agree, haste seems like a very nice + threat stat, but Warriors especially have so many stats we worry about that adding another one that has a high item budget is just going to make it a waste.

Riot · 02/11/08, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by Njial

I agree, haste seems like a very nice + threat stat, but Warriors especially have so many stats we worry about that adding another one that has a high item budget is just going to make it a waste.

It's not only that, really. While white damage is a significant portion of your threat, I think most of it comes from your specials. Keeping your four piece Onslaught, stacking shield block value, etc., seems like a superior way to go.

For example, I don't really plan to use [Breastplate of Agony's Aversion], if I can use [Onslaught Chestguard] to get a 4pc T6. (I plan to use Belt, Wrists, Chest and probably Shoulders).

The mitigation/avoidance stats look pretty much equal. BAA has a bit more stamina. But that 40 Haste rating could've been a ton of something else.

Shrug. To each his own, I suppose.

Agrimat · 02/11/08, 3:00 PM

There's a new expertise king for the neck slot: [Collar of the Pit Lord]

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...thepitlord.jpg

Expertise is shaping up to be a core tanking stat, rather than something you sacrifice survivability for. Predictions are hard to make, but I can see it leading to most tanks having less divergent threat and avoidance sets, since putting 40 expertise on an avoidance piece goes a long way toward making it best-in-slot for both roles.