Molpe

I apologize if this is slightly out of place here; couldn't find a better location, and as my first not on the forums it couldn't be a new thread... Despite the wealth of Warrior information here I did not find an answer to this question.

I've encountered a problem with some recreational code related to the application of Stamina bonuses -- the Warrior Vitality talent, but also Druid Heart of the Wild and Paladin Sacred Duty and Combat Expertise. Is it known precisely how it is calculated? (This can more generically be considered a question about applying any bonus to a statistic.)

For the following discussion, I've already validated that modified gear Stamina contributions are whole numbers; any rounding or truncation occurs before gear contributions are aggregated. (Seems obvious but I've backtracked through every permutation I could think of while beating my head against this.)

Let me use a simple example...I'll use a Paladin rather than a Warrior because my confusion is easier to illustrate precisely using a 1.16 multiplier. I've got a level 70 Human Paladin with 2 ranks in Sacred Duty (+6% Stamina from gear) and 5 ranks in Combat Expertise (+10% Stamina from gear). He's putting on a Devilshark Cape (22 Stamina) with an enchant that doesn't matter to us. He gains *25* Stamina putting on the cloak.

22 * 1.16 = 25.52

The rational conclusion would seem to be, round final Stamina down.

But of course this is not the case. Let's put the same Paladin into a Girdle of the Protector socketed with a Solid Star of Elune and an Enduring Talasite, which also gives it a socket bonus of 4 Stamina (40 + 12 + 6 + 4 = 62 Stamina). He gains *72* Stamina.

62 * 1.16 = 71.92

So, if it were as simple as applying the multiplier to the sum of an individual item's Stamina contribution, it looks like 0.52 is rounded down but some fraction larger than that is rounded up.

I find it outlandish that nonstandard rounding would occur, so I figured it was more likely my approach was in error.

Perhaps bonuses are applied to each type of contribution on an item, then rounded (or floored or ceilinged) and summed. Or perhaps they are applied to categories of contribution for an item -- one example, the item itself, the enchant, and then summed gems and socket bonus. Or perhaps when there are multiple bonuses, as with my example Paladin, they are applied and rounded (or floored or ceilinged) separately.

Perhaps :-) I've experimented with numerous methods and have never made the numbers work. Ruled out:

* Base stamina is not really a whole number, and correction to a whole number is not done until all gear contributions are calculated and summed as fractions.

* Rounding individual modified Stamina contributions from every different source and then summing.

So how big an idiot am I? What am I missing? For the life of me the best method I've found so far is using a multiplier of 1.1586 instead of 1.16 (for the example character I'm using)...

I hope this is related enough to Warrior number-crunching to not be too out of place in this thread.

 

◊ Jameson

Look at any prot warrior's WWS of Hyjal, especially without a prot pally present. I think I taunted 150 times on our last Hyjal clear. Several bosses and boss adds are tauntable as well. Shaving seconds off the cd saves lives.

 

• Chicken

Molpe, as far as I know such bonuses are multiplicative, not additive. So you have to multiply it by 1.10 * 1.06; not by 1.16. This turns the actual multiplier into 1.166. It's a minor difference, but it changes the Girdle of the Protector in your example from 71.92 stamina to 72.292 stamina.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Taliafears

Molpe,

On my warrior sheet I sum all the stamina from gear/gems/whatever, multiply by the talent multiplier, and round. It has been correct for a number of gear changes.

My guess is that because you are looking at single pieces of gear at a time, your efforts at correctly rounding are fruitless. Also as Chicken pointed out, it should be Stam*1.1*1.06, not additive as you were trying to do.

 

Molpe

...

You know, despite demonstrating myself an idiot, I'm really glad I posted. The bonuses are, of course, multiplicative. Which I even knew. So why I kept adding them is a great question :-) But I'm sure I would have kept going through a lot more really fruitless math without ever returning to the initial multiplier if I hadn't exposed myself here.

Thank you!

 

Alyx

I doubt it is the best way. I don't think I ever output the max TPS I could on bosses, due to the highest DPS in my guild being rogues around 1600 indeed. On some fights I just cannot output max threat due to lack of rage or other mechanics, but on fights where I could do it, I usually don't cause I do not need to, I just stay above the dps with some margin and play safe, refreshing TC/DS every 15-20s, doing less HS or Devastate than I could to keep a rage buffer to make sure I will be able to shield block even if I get a dodge streak (less Devastates also gives less risk of parries hasting to consectuive swings), paying more attention to my healers if the mechanics of the fight can prevent them from healing during several seconds (click the watch during a Fatal attraction on a pally who was healing me, while I won't if it is a druid who can just refresh the bloom while running), etc.
Sure, if I plan to quit my guild in a week I can do max threat on some bosses this week to have the WWS reports, but if I emoquit tonight for any reason, I probably have no such reports.

 

Mister Joshua

I hope this isn't an utterly lame question, but I would love to know how to calculate my average TPS via WWS reports.

 

Xav

Yes, of course you don't have to output anywhere near your max tps most of the time, probably. Depends on guild, though. But the point is you want to see someone that can definitely put out impressive results, incase they're put in a situation where they aren't going to have a super stacked group, raid, or whatnot. Someone that can still put out good threat while not wearing threat gear. Or not necessarily in high rage. Someone that understands how and why you use abilities, and not that you just mash heroic strike mindlessly and get good numbers put up since you're at 100 rage the whole time.

There's a whole fuckload of a lot to review when it would come to testing a warrior applicant, one of those would be ability to generate threat, and the simplest way to do that is asking them questions, reviewing several of their WWS logs, and coming to a conclusion.

To guy asking where to calculate TPS based on wws: It's been asked, and answered, and linked in this thread, at least twice now, perhaps more, within the last 3 pages I think even. It's also been asked and answered several times in the "sustained threat: wws'd" thread.

 

Kannojo

I'm sure its here on EJ somewhere, its a bit outdated perhaps but is there any post regarding Thunderfury its dps, its proc, that added damage. From a threat perspective. Also I've heard literally hundreds of conflicting reports about its stacking with TC. I'm looking for Statistical Analysis not your personal opinion because you have an <insert weapon here> and your guild is unwilling to put the time and effort into getting this weapon. I'm looking for:

Its Effective TPS potential with highest rank abilities?

At what stage of the game (upgrade) is it surpassed by <insert weapon here> ?

Are there any particuliar circumstances where it is advantageous to use it ?

I'm not trying to get flamed for posting this here but any assistance would be much appreciated. To the OP this is brilliant. I have guide saved onto my laptop I probably read it everyday looking for some "gem" of information I may have looked over. I love these replies by all the intelligent people here keep up the awesome work!

 

Riot

It's been calculated long ago that TF's dps was about 80-something DPS as a one-hander.

It does not stack with Thunderclap.

There is no reason to go back and farm one. If you have threat issues, look at the SS,REV, Dx2 cycle proposed and discipline yourself to it. Check your WWS parses for the amount of time you spent fighting a boss, and try to adhere to a tight Shield Slam timing.

I'm sure it's outpaced by a King's Defender or a Mallet of the Tides when you get there.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

acx

1. Approximately same TPS as King's Defender.
2. Surpassed by Mallet of the Tides.
3. Useful for killing Inner Demons on Leotheras because they take +50% damage from nature and holy spells.

 

Kannojo

I'm actually doing fairly well on threat i'm an aggressive spec 12/5/44 Although i'm respecing today to a more defensive build. I don't have a need for all the threat i'm generating. I'm tanking vr down to around 38%~ before losing aggro. Granted there were 2 MD's coming around every 60 seconds. I spec'd this way to compete with my feral druid offtank before i found this post.(aka when i was a retard spamming devastate/hs) Since revising my rotation or lack there of I've had 0 problems with threat.

I was honestly just curious due to the nostalgia of the thunderfury as well as aesthetic appeal. I'm sure everyone's heard rumors of azeroth legendary upgrade quests in WotLK.

 

Liar

VR isn't exactly the best fight to measure your threat on. Tanking him to 38% doesn't mean anything because the aggro resets can be avoided so it's pure luck. We had a VR kill with 1 tank tanking him to 0% and another (with the same tank) where he lost aggro in the early 80% just because the RNG didn't like him.

 

◊ Quigon

And before the gear improvements, VR benefitted from having up to 4 tanks at one time.

I'm also not sure TPS is a good indicator of tank talent. Awareness is far more important - awareness also includes ability to do math or at least think when it comes to gear and talent choices. Good TPS, good awareness, and smart choices are so unbelievably rare in a single warrior. Even in top-end guilds that killed 4H quite early you hear complaints about a major gap in the quality of the tanks.

 

Carmak

Awareness can be extended to any class/role as well, as the ability to deal with your shortcomings. What is good TPS for one guild might not work at all in another, and the same is true with gear choices as well. As long as someone is interested in learning the theory behind it I don't see good TPS as a measurement of anything else than latency though, it's not exactly rocket science, and you don't even have to do the calculations yourself.

 

Zyn

Is maxing Imp Demoralizing Shout to 5/5 required? I was under the impression that there was a cap so that you never needed more than 3/5 with curse of recklessness and 2/5 without although looking now I can't find a source for this :/ Feel free to correct me and I'll edit this post or mods can delete it!

 

Darkrenown

You need 5/5 with CoR. Honestly, just looking at the AP given by CoR vs the AP taken away by 5/5 would have answered you that.

 

Reliknom

If your raid intends to use Curse of Recklessness (which they absolutely should), then 5/5 demo shout is strongly recommended to account for the +AP the bosses will receive from the curse.

"Morituri Nolumus Mori!"

 

• Jamor

Actually, there are no rumors. Blue has said for some time they do not plan on upgrading legendary weapons.

 

qualia

Hey guys, I'm normally a lurker over at the enhancement forums. But today, something happened in raid that made me go 'WTF?'.

I'm somewhat familiar with parry mechanics. At least, I know that Parry would give a maximum benefit of 40% increase attack speed on the next attack. So here's the problem:



Archimonde killed our Tank in 0.3 seconds. What gives?? Can anyone explain this??

 

ohcrocsle

Your combat log looks like it was recorded with high or unstable latency. According to that log, your tank took 16k damage in .3 seconds while having only 15k hit points and then didn't die for another .7 seconds, unless I'm reading that recount window incorrectly. There may be another explanation, but I don't think I would trust a log that told me the tank took more damage than he had health and then was healed and died later.

 

galzohar

To get gibbed by archimonde wiht 20k HP you'd need to both get a parry and take all 3 hits and not have much healing on you. While getting more HP/armor/buffs/debuffs will not really reduce the chance for you to get 3-shot, it will noticeably reduce the amount of healing you're required to receive between the 2nd and the 3rd hit. There is no real reason not to have an devotion aura, imp aura, shadow embrace and even tree aura in the tank group on that fight (or any other single-tank fight) at least until you're significantly overgearing it. Depending on how amplify magic works with doomfires you may even want that to be up (it's most likely worth having but if it increases every doomfire tick by the listed amount it could be bad - needs testing). Healer priority on tremor totems is big help here too.

Note that he also wasn't full HP during your "0.3s gib". If your tank isn't full HP it doesn't really count as a "gib", more like a slow death.

 

Xav

Combat log mods (wws included) just take guesses as to the time things happen, it can't get any more accurate than 1 second intervals cause that's all the combat log supports. So to me it looks like a typical log variance, paired with your tank not using ironshields or having Archimonde debuffed with demo shout, and getting hit extremely hard.

 

ALEXTREBEK

I think what you really need to look at is if the boss parried one of your tank's (or god forbid someone else's) attacks, as that is what would trigger him getting torn to shreds so quickly. Even so, it looks as if you're tank had quite a bit of time to Last Stand, Shield Wall, or at least Nightmare Seed/Healthstone. Like Xav said, if he wasn't popping Ironshields every CD in addition to upholding Demo. Shout and Thunder Clap, his death is nearly entirely his own fault due to ill preparation.

 

vorda

Ever took a log at a combatlog.txt?

7/13 20:37:38.815 Prayer of Mending fades from you.

That looks pretty accurate to me

Yes, latency can play a role in some timestamp issues, but the 1 second interval thing is false.