Delete this post please, wasn't paying attention.

As currently 3/5 t6 with Faceplate and Gauntlets of Enforcement, the 4 piece just doesn't feel worth dropping so much expertise for on the gauntlets, and the stamina from faceplate is a massive amount. If we were ever to get another brutalizer to drop, I'd consider going with t6 gloves to try out to see if there is a noticably large threat difference. Even with that switch you are trading expertise and sbv (threat and absorption) for noticably extra threat on one cooldown limited skill (despite it being the threat powerhouse).

Faceplate does actually have more armor than Onslaught helm, and if you were to use t6 for the bonus, you lose some sbv. The opportunity cost of switching, even when factoring in the agility and strength just seems too high. Despite having numerous excellent healers, the amount of times I've come to dying on something like Teron or Illidan is mind-boggling. I know at least once just last week that the extra stam literally kept me alive.

And as for the arguement about why the agility is marginal but people take cruelty: The percentage increase is what makes cruelty a good threat talent to take. For most tanks, cruelty increases crit by somewhere between 50 too 100% (rough value from the top of my head). On top of these stats the ~1% crit from agility on t6 helm is a much smaller percentage increase.

My 2c.

Edit: Noticed something Quignon mentioned about tanking trash without a shield, and I have started to do this on some trash (mainly all of Shahraz's). In full tanking gear, dual wielding a fast weapon MH and something w/ hit in OH, and spamming HS/dev/revenge when available has netted me easy 1300 tps on omen, with spikes into 1600. Not to mention it provides a little levity and something different to tanking the same old trash pulls.

Don't forget the armor from the agility on T6. 1483 + 56 from agility (61.6 with kings) = 1539 (1545) on T6 vs. 1532 on faceplate.

I don't think anyone is advocating getting 4pcT6 for tanking a fight where you need top-of-the-line survival gear. Assuming all options are on the table, and you're in danger of getting destroyed, your best choice is the faceplate. I just think people were overstating the differences between T6 and the faceplate. ~43 stamina (with kings) and ~0.7% more avoidance is incredibly valuable, but there's a time and place for favoring that over much higher overall threat stats.

If you go with the 4pc bonus, you're using it for threat generation. The opportunity cost is over 70 stamina when you look at T6 legs vs praetorian legguards and no faceplate. Personally, I'd rather give up the faceplate in favor of using the gauntlets of enforcement. If it's a threat race, you usually don't care as much about your stamina levels as long as they're reasonably high.

For a non 4 piece t5 setup, which may be a bit too much mitigation to lose for the sake of threat at this point in the game, would it make more sense to use the t5 helm and shoulders, Praet's legs, and Teron gloves? The t5 shoulders being the highest threat shoulders, since neither Supremus' or t6 have any threat generating stats on them. Alternatively to the helm, the t5 chest piece could work, though I'm more partial to the t3 armorsmithing BP.

So with the two piece t5 bonus from helm/shoulders, t3 armorsmithing BP, Teron gloves, Praet's legs, you maintain more mitigation than a 4 piece t5 setup, and keep the hit from legs and chest, expertise from gloves, and the 200 block value from two piece t5. Also, the t5 helm has the same agility and stam that the t6 helm has.

Quigon,

I had some questions regarding your initial post after taking the last couple of days to delve over it. Thank you for all that very informative information btw. I appreciate your time and effort into doing so. I've only tanked full Kara and nothing beyond just yet. As lately I've been playing alts when not PvP'n. After reading your post tho, it's gotten me wanting to get back into prot tanking once I finish getting PvP BG gear. Unfortunately, I have not read all 20 some pages of this thread, so please excuse me if these questions/concerns have already been addressed. Previous to switching to my current PvP MS spec, I spent a lot of time experimenting with various tanking methods and such, so I just want to warn you I am the type of person who tries out cookie cutters, but then, also tries to push the envelope. I have a thirst for knowledge that is unquenchable. Usually when people tell me "that skill is worthless!" I usually think "That's because you're not using it right!" or "How can this skill be useful?"

Some things I wanted to know were:
- I don't see any addressing the concept of a Kite-Tank, or AoE tank. Was this omitted on purpose? Covered elsewhere perhaps?
- I also noticed the lack of discussing Tactical Mastery and 'Stance Dancing' in particular. Again, is this covered elsewhere?
- Heroic Strike does have the increased cost by not acquiring rage when used when it hits, but what about using Unbridled Wrath, which does allow HS to generate a rage point? This ties into my questions of, how useful is UW to a protection tank. I remember when I was AoE/Kite Tanking, I am fairly certain I was generating a lot more rage then previously. Any comments to make on UW? I realized it's not worth the loss to mitigation, obviously, but in terms of an aggressive tank scenario, what are your thoughts?
- Now this might be a stupid simple question, but I gotta ask. I would rather look dumb right now then go on being uncertain about it. How much +def from gear would I need to circumvent the Anticipation skill? 510? Or does Anticipation do more for you in a way I don't quite understand or know? I want to know if I can not max it out by circumventing the points elsewhere.


I also wanted to give an opinion on something I noticed about your suggested builds and the whole Blood Rage/Improved Taunt talks (I read some of this in the first few pages but lost track). I too was a big fan of Improved Taunt, and I certainly haven't changed my mind on it tho. But you discuss trash clearing as the key use for this, yet your defensive build completely omits Imp Revenge, which is simply awesome on trash clearing and has a shorter recharge (allowing for quicker applications, allowing for more targets to be affected by it). I myself noticed a significant better aggro holding ability with this skill then with Improved Taunt. Even with only 2 points in Imp Revenge, the 30% chance at the stun is invaluable to maintaining aggro of multiple targets. Dropping a revenge on another trash and if it stuns, your followed HS gets a nice boost.

In addition, as was pointed out by others, Imp BR is indeed noteworthy on single targets (read bosses) because of the ability to land a Shield Slam off the bat when engaging the target - which if it crits, certainly gives you an early/fast threat lead. I have found when tanking that Imp BR and Imp Revenge helps to cover both your bases, the bosses and the trash. All in all, it seems Prot palys are a better choice for trash tanking when doing farming runs anyways, as this allows for more AoE splatter/dmg and speeds up the trash clearing. I mention this, because I'm wondering how realistic in use some of your suggestions are. You do at one point mention having another warrior in the raid to provide TC and DS, and even a warlock for CoW. I honestly don't see much point to putting any points into improved DS when you can have 2 locks in your raid. One to CoW and one to CoR (or am I missing something again and these don't stack from separate locks?)

Sorry, i'm not Quigon but i'm bored :>
Do you mean piercing howl kiting? That's not tanking, because the wlocks/mages got the aggro. :P
True aoetanking with warrior is not viable, closest thing is to keep targetting one mob and using cleave and tclap, so the other mobs won't run for healers. But dps has to be single target. There is no way to keep 10 mobs in one pile with 3 mages and wlocks spamming aoe. Well, ofcourse if you can build aggro on them for 15 minutes or so...

Is there that much to discuss? Use the /cast [stance:3] Berserker Rage; Berserker Stance;-macro to break fear, not much other stancedancing required by a prot warrior. I keep 1 point in TM because of some skill, I always forget which one it was though.

I think it's a better idea to put the points in imp HS instead. UW isn't worth very much even to fury warriors, so i'd think it would be marginal for prot warriors too.

Total 490 against lvl73 mobs as lvl70. Anticipation is included it the char screen.

Stun -> mob not hitting you -> no rage -> no threat. Pretty simple.

True

Locks got other curses too. Priority is CoS>CoE~CoR>doom>dead whale>CoW. -AP modifiers do not stack.

Tclap is something that you can apply yourself, as it really doesn't affect your tps that much and it helps with multiple mobs too, so the points aren't "wasted". Imp DS does take points from either your aggrogeneration or mitigation. It fits better in a dw fury warrior's build, and they got the GCDs to use it.

I have to admit the results looked a "bit low" to me so I've checked and I've found a big flaw in the Spreadsheet I used (or a more truthfully a flaw in my use): when adjusting for Strength / Agility it does not change the associated base AP / Crit Rate (since you enter these manually) only the gains you subsequently get from buffs to those stats (such as BoK).
Great big DOH.

Doing it correctly for the stats on T6 Helm I get more the following stats in isolation:

T6 Helm
23 Strength 6.2 TPS
28 Agility 8.4 TPS
35 Block Value: 8.3 TPS
Total of stats in isolation: 22.9 TPS
Total increase when all stats entered together into Threatdown: 23.2 TPS

T6 Gloves
18 Strength: 4.9 TPS

Gauntlets of Enforcement
21 Expertise Rating: 27.8 TPS
36 Block Value: 8.5 TPS
Total: 36.3 TPS

The Threat Spreadsheet I use is the Threatdown 4.1 linked elsewhere in Class Mechanics. Towards the end of the thread a respondant slightly updated it and then others correct a few forumulae so I use that with all the latest updates. I find it pretty accurate at predicting TPS as long as you use it correctly <Blush>.
It factors in misses, armour etc

AoE/Kite-Tanking would be using Piercing Howl to keep a large group of mobs on your location, in conjunction with Imp TC and movement boost to your boots. You can keep them in a specific location to allow for maximum AoE dmg on the cluster. Here, Improved Taunt helps to keep them on you as well. I've been able to keep more than 9 elites in an instance centered on myself (I wasn't decked out in super gear at the time) amidst AoE dmg. As long as the AoE is equal you can keep them on you.

This method of tanking also reduces dmg you are taking, because the mobs are focused on trying to catch you as you basically run around in circles around them, literally. I mean, you do get hit, but it's not all 9 at the same time. It's a lot less then that. Enough to keep the rage coming in, and not be too intense, and allow you to spam Howl and Thunder.

Depending on your group configuration, if you are heavy AoE and no single target, it's gravy. If you have like a rogue and/or a hunter in the group, you let them pull one out and own it. It's basically a game of fishing for mobs from the big school.

As such, I've found it very viable in clearing trash. Although I have not attempted it recently in heroics or major raids. I started doing this, to try and keep up with the paladin AoE tanks - which still do it a lot better. It's a comp out in a lot of ways. But it works fantastic if your only aoe is warlocks spamming seed. Everything pretty much goes down quickly. 3 locks and 1 healer and a tank, and you can just roll things as your aoe isn't really enough to trip their seeds until they've got 3 up each. 9 seeds on multiple mobs = fun fun. But it doesn't have to be just locks and seeds. If you spread your aoe around the room, you can keep them centered in the room as the aoe'rs play an aggro pulling game. Again, I regularly admit to paladins holding mass mob aggro significantly better. I just wanted to mention this, because it is an interesting way to tank that can work very well if your group members are equally aware of the tactic being employed.

So in response to your statement about not being possible to kite 10 mobs. I believe I have done so sir. There was a time I specifically remember in shattered halls where we pulled both sides plus the 5 group in the center. I believe 2-3 mobs died in the initial group, but when the 2 sides joined in it got messy. They initially all ran for the healer, who I pulled off her with a challenging shout, and then Tclaped and Howl kiting them around in a tight circle in the center of the room. Luckily, the ranged attacking mobs from the center group had died as the sides joined in, so I was only kiting melee based dmg mobs. The rogue and hunter died in after they had accidentally pulled the sides (rogue pulled one, hunter pulled other, they died, and each group ran for the healer is what I meant), but the mage and priest didn't. As I kept kiting them the mage laid down a steady stream of aoe. The rogue and hunter actually ran all the way back in and self ressed and rejoined the battle and fished out one target at a time after sitting there eating/drinking to get back to full life.

It was kinda comical actually.

Well I'm not sure if you are aware of the other stance dance that is incredibly useful on bosses below 20% life. This particular dancing has even helped to pull through for a win, instead of a loss, even when being the last one in the group alive. That is, stance dancing to battle stance to unload an Execute. You then immediately stance back to Defensive to acquire shield block. It is a back and forth rotation. As soon as you are in Defensive, you SB, and then you immediately go back to BS and immediately hit Execute, and then immediately go back to Def, etc. Against final targets who are debuffed with Improved TC, you can usually time this well enough that your Imp Shield Block covers you while in BS. So when you go back into defensive, the blocks actually give you rage, which fuels your executes. This allows a tank to power out incredible dmg on a low health target, especially a boss. This is normally when I use shield wall as well, to prolong the amount of time that can be spent dong so without the benefit of a healer.

Naturally 30 rage would be better then 15 for unloading an Execute after switching stances. I say 15, because most people seem to claim TM is garbage for Prot Tanking. The other thing I wanted to note was, berserker rage should be used constantly. That doesn't seem to be said usually for some reason. Sure it's a fear breaker, but it's also a great rage generation tool. Using this constantly helps you generate that much more rage, which means you can unload that many more attacks for more threat. Not to mention it helps with the spike/execute dance I just mentioned.


I didn't mean UW or Imp HS. I meant to use both together. As for not worth very much even for fury, I'm uncertain why you say this. I play all 3 specs, and Fury I've played the longest from back in the days of raiding MC. The new changes to Whirlwind are great, which gives reason to have 2 slow weapons, but having a fast OH still feeds UW better in my opinion. I've tried both styles, and I still stick with the faster OH because it allows me to use more rage based attacks more regularly, which for me provides higher dps. Slow OH seems a lot better in cases where you can WW multiple mobs, which isn't always the case in raids. It's smart to have a fast and slow in my opinion, and switch up as appropriate.

Great thanks! I just wanted to be sure on this. Right now with my current MS spec, which has no points in Prot of course, if I wear my tanking gear, I hit 490 defense. This is terrific news to me, as it frees up points to do what I want to do with a new prot build I'm contemplating. So thank you for responding.


You're forgetting something kinda obvious here. I'm talking about attacking multiple targets. Here Revenge is used for aggro control, in addition to other abilities mind you, but the point I make is: tossing a revenge on a mob you haven't sundered yet (even one you are not tanking atm) and getting it to proc the stun and then following it with a heroic strike is a great way to get a nice threat lead on that mob. Remember, HS does extra dmg vs stun'd targets. So you Revenge>HS>Sunder and it's your mob. Not to mention the stun is just great for stopping a mob from doing well anything it's currently doing. Again, I'm aware the stun does not work on bosses, and all my points about Imp Revenge are based around fighting trash. I've just found from experience that when you stun/revenge a mob, that time to land a HS and sunder, can usually put you back on the threat lead for that mob without having to use taunt.

You are confusing revenge stun with daze, which are two completely different mechanics. Shield bash causes the daze effect on non-immune mobs. Heroic Strike only has added damage versus dazed targets. I would recommend rereading the ability tooltips.

Revenge stun is by and large a useless talent in any raid instances.

Havuc, you're right on a lot of the things you're talking about, and they're what I would call "tanking intricacies". There's a long list of things, probably too many to actually list, that are the small, quirky, and beneficial things you can do while playing as a tank (warrior specifically), to be more effective. WW while tanking, berseker rage + bloodrage on cooldown for more rage, etc. I was a huge fan of a hybrid tank build that you mention as well, when I was originally doing the Heroics grind pre-nerf oh uh.. a year ago. Piercing Howl was wonderful for 5 mans and really made it a lot of fun to do the things you describe.

But a lot of this topic actually deals more specifically with 25-man raid tanking roles, in which a lot of such tactics/abilities are just useless due to immunities and such. This is not to say that mentioning such things are useless, but rather, they may not get as much coverage due to the audience type of these forums. Improved Revenge does just about nothing in most raids, and the points are better spent elsewhere - similarly, it's not really feasible to have a tanking spec that min/maxes your most important attributes/role while still having PH.

As for anticipation, it's a very good talent even if you're already uncrittable, since it's still adding dodge, block, parry, and miss, the basis of our tanking stats!