Pitbuller

At kalecgos aura is easily noticiable.
Kalecgos - WWS
More parry than dodges and there was two warrior and druid tank. And only 4% miss.
Test sample is almoust 1000 swing

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

zork

I still have some open questions:

Lets assume we have Boss "A" that hits for 10.000 damage every second after mitigation from armor and defensive stance.

Armory mitigation is 70%, defensive stance mitigation is 10%.

Ok, now lets assume we put demoralising shout rank 2 on the boss which should reduce the boss damage by 30%.
Thus Boss "A" hits for 7.000 damage every second after demoralising shout (7k dps).

Now lets put Thunderclap on the boss. It lengthens the attack speed by 20% making him hit every 1,2 seconds.

Ok my questions:
- If Boss "A" hits for 10.000 damage after mitigation and defensive stance (without Demoralising Shout and Thunderclap), how much is the "original" damage?
- If we put Thunderclap on Boss "A", does his DPS stay the same, making him hit harder but slower?
- If we put Thunderclap and Demoralising Shout on Boss "A", what is the final DPS? I would assume its 7k/1,2sec = 5,83k DPS. Is this correct?

BLOG [ZIB] _ GUILD [TDMOG] _ INTERFACE [ROTHUI] _ CHAR [ROTHAR]

 

Legh

First of all, I'm sorry if this has been already said in the topic in the past few pages, but I am kind of short of time and can't go through it now

I have just tested raiding Gruul+Magtheridon hit/expertise heavy, ending up with 55 expertise value (13.75%), and I am afraid the guesses of bosses' parry chance to be at 15% may be correct. According to my Recount, at the end of the raid on a total of about 700 attacks, 1 of those was parried. That is of course a very low chance, but still, not immunity

Dumbly enough, I reset my recount without taking a screenshot, I will try to replicate the experiment asap and check out the results again. I will try to test also with higher amounts of expertise if Brutallus this week will be so kind to drop us a Protector belt, but the assumption of bosses' parry rating to be at 10.6% is sadly wrong. At the very least, it is of 13.76%

 

Eetabeetay

There is always a 1% chance for the enemy to dodge/parry. So you could be way past the cap for him, but are still seeing parries because of that 1%

 

Yeria

This is quite new to me, where did you get that information? From everything I know and read here and in other places, such a cap on dodge/parry does not exist. (Unless I have been missing something big for a few months...)

 

Xav

I don't think this is true at all, or for any of the melee mechanics. Once you cap hit, you don't miss. Once you cap dodge, you won't get a dodge. Parry is much higher. I note the dodge/miss being able to truly be removed from lots and lots of WWS logs and personal experience.

As far as I know, the 1% chance is only for spells. And yes, it's kind of accepted that the boss parry rate is 13-15% - if it said 10.6% in the guide it was probably an old, old version and forgot to get updated.

 

Edgewalker

I've fully removed dodges for a while now, it's pretty much proven at this point that you can remove them from the table.

 

Riot

Just wanted to add some information re: [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve].

It's an okay item if you're a new warrior catching up on gear via badges, and you need those badges to purchase something else instead of the Brooch of Deftness, and the proc is decent if you have reputation with the Aldor.

Okay, with that said I'd like to tentatively confirm that that the Pendant has an internal cooldown that is probably equal to the other Shattered Sun Pendants - meaning that the proc goes off about once a minute.

Statwise, it's pretty much just a minor downgrade from the Brooch, and the 5% dodge isn't bad at all - if you're Aldor you'll probably mitigate a very slight bit more actually than the Brooch.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

• the KRIS

I've poked around this thread trying to find anything about this, and I haven't found anything.

I've got a brand new 70 warrior alliance-side on a new server, a server on which I'm not established. That means I've got to get gear before I can get groups to get gear, as opposed to the "alts in greens" Kara guild runs on my main server.

My question is this: I'm currently using [Grom'tor's Charge] to tank, and I have a rough time tanking off friends in s3/s4 or t5+. Would I see a significant increase in threat if I picked up an S2 weapon when those move to honor? Something like [Merciless Gladiator's Slicer]. I realize using a slower weapon means fewer heroic strikes, and that devastate is normalized to the point that a slower weapon doesn't help much, but wouldn't such a huge boost in weapon DPS mean a decent boost in threat generation as well?

(Technically [Merciless Gladiator's Shanker] would be better, but image is important for a guild-seeking prot warrior and I really don't want to be seen tanking with a dagger. I remember my guild's tank used a [Julie's Dagger] back in the MC days, and was mocked incessantly for it, even though it really was the best choice for max HS threat gen at the time.)

Obviously I'd prefer to snag a king's defender or sun eater, but I'm kinda entry-level gearwise - hell, I'm using a couple of the reputation PvP pieces just to reach non-crittable, so I have some dues to pay.

So, what say ye? To s2 or not to s2?

 

Fellwraith

I use a [Rod of the Sun King] for tanking heroics/trash when I'm rage starved (for what it's worth, the proc on it is amazing when you're using an instant every 1.5 seconds). If you don't have a lot of rage, then I think speed is pretty irrelevant. Faster only matters if you're heroic striking frequently, otherwise you should be looking at dps and other stats that are on the weapon.

The question you need to ask yourself is if you have to dump rage into heroic strikes a lot. If the answer is yes, then a faster weapon is better for you.

You could also snag one of the rep items like [Warbringer] or [Honor's Call]. Both of those would be a pretty big upgrade for an orc or a human respectively. If smithing is an option, I'd seriously look at a fireguard. They're pretty easy to upgrade now that badges can buy primal nethers.

 

maddfez

The conundrum I have been having recently is how highly to rank expertise as a damage reduction statistic, when compared to avoidance or effective health. Depending on gear sets, I can fluctuate as high as 38 expertise skill and as low as 16, with significant gains in other tanking stats for making the expertise loss.

My guild is currently working on Archimonde, who I am MTing. The only sources of tank spike damage are parries and doomfires. By continuing to crank up the expertise, I can help reduce the number of parries spikes, but make myself weaker to regular damage and doomfires (if one hits the tank).

The items most in question are Bracers of the Ancient Phalnax vs Eternium Shell and Shard of Contemt vs the Furies deck vs Scarab of Displacement (Shadowmoon Insignia is in the other slot).

In our limited attempts so far, I've been going with less expertise gear and MT deaths haven't been a major problem, but in the same gear set Gathios basically "one shot" me earlier this week with back to back parries.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Runetotem&n=Maddfez

I'm logged out now in my expertise gear. I'll definitely be switching in my badge cloak for Archimonde, but what else would you guys recommend?

 

Riot

I'm thinking you may need to look at your mechanics first. In 5 man's maintaining threat is an art form of letting Taunt do the work for you, and letting DPS pull off a mob at a low % and letting it die en route.

Summary: Max your hit and block value, practice "cheating" with Taunt. Take a look at your mechanics first.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

Riot

Threat is almost never an issue. Assuming you have a great lead on threat, just turn off your attacks if you have a bad fear. Use Ironshields on every cooldown, make sure demo/tc are up, wear avoidance gear.

Go with ESB and SOD + SMI.

How did Gathios gib you? Sounds like a healing issue, really - there's tons of lulls in damage from Gathios since he swings sort of slow and his judgement takes two seconds to cast. If your healers are reactively healing you on Gathios, that's a habit they need to get out, really.

Edit: I wanted to add that expertise is no substitute for pure avoidance, and that Doomfire damage should be trivial provided you can move fast enough and/or people are moving it away properly.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

galzohar

It's the aged-old question of "should I reduce my chance to take a burst at the cost of being less capable of handling a burst?"
In general, as long as you have a reasonable chance for a burst to happen (as in, it's not so low that you're willing to accept a wipe when it does happen), increasing your ability to last through it is more important. However sometimes you face some "retarded" choices of a tiny about of HP VS a decent reduction in chance of burst (that still stays far from eliminating it).
If you're easily able to handle those bursts it's generally better to just reduce their number to reduce the number of chances your raid has to mess up handling them, as well as (although more debateable, as more stamina/armor also causes that) less total and especially less emergency healing needed on you (which is generally involving the less efficient healing spells and as well as extra overhealing).

At the end to find the actaul breakpoint where X burst chance reduction is better than Y ability to survive burst is quite impossible in general, even given a specific boss with his specific abilities. That's why people will keep arguing about it endlessly, at least until someone comes up with a way to model tanking&healing. That's probably not going to ever happen, considering it would take a lot of work, the slightest error would make the numbers be very far off, and the game is easy enough to handle without knowing the exact numbers.

 

Pachwa

For clarity, he still attacks you with melee swings as his judgement cast bar is going.

If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh.

 

Riot

Right, I assume he's able to attack if his swing timer is up when he starts the cast, but there's often times in combat when he's winding up his judgement and I'm hopping away from whatever AE effect is going on - the Gathios tank is taking very low damage at these times.

ps: Your shield is ugly.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

maddfez

The Gathios gibbing was basically on pull. He parried my initial melee attack and two devastates, landing three melee attacks and a judgement of blood in very short succession with no debuffs up yet. Basically the random number generator bent us over and our healers likely should of been able to cover it, but it kinda freaked everyone out. We switched to having a lock put CoW up as I'm getting initial aggro then swapping for recklessness / demo about twenty seconds into the fight and it was a noticeable difference.

Thanks for the advice, I'll plan on going with ESB + SoD, possibly subbing in the Commendation for the Scarab if I can get one to drop.

 

Riot

I wouldn't sub in the Commendation for this fight, honestly - I much prefer to actively pop my trinkets during fears if the healers say they're in bad spots, and I often blow cooldowns successively so that the final fear is usually shieldwalled to guarantee a kill.

Also that Gathios gib sounds like the healers were just afraid to pull aggro or something. That should never happen.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

Fruffy

Maddfez,

At 16 expertise, you are looking at a 4% reduction in parries. Assuming 13% parry rate on boss, you've now got a 9% chance to be parried, and a .09^2 = 0.81% chance to be parried twice in a row.

With a 1.6s weapon speed and no haste or WF procs, you've got 1/1.6s + 1/(1.5+.1s) = 1.25 attacks per second with 100ms latency. This gives expected time to double parry as (1/1.25s)/.0081 ~ 99s.

If you use your 38 expertise set, the parry rate is now 13 - .25*38 = 3.5%. Your new chance to see double parry is 0.12%, or an expected time to see parry-parry of 653s.

You also have to factor in the different levels of pure avoidance in each scenario to determine what the chances are that you will actually be HIT by both of those attacks to determine which gear settup is better for decreasing spike damage events. This also brings up the possibility that one of these hasted attacks may induce a crushing blow. At 16 expertise, and 50% avoidance, you expect to see a parry-parry event where both hasted attacks hit you every (1/1.25)/.0081/.5/.5 = 395 seconds. With 38 expertise, and 50% avoidance, you'll expect the same event to occur every (1/1.25)/.0012/.5/.5 = 2667 seconds (about 44.5 minutes). Obviously the avoidance numbers will be different between the two gear settups, but I did this to show what a dramatic effect expertise has on the liklihood of this happening.

As an overall mitigation stat, expertise also effectively reduces the number of incoming boss attacks by decreasing parry haste. If I'm not mistaken, on average, a single parry will decrease the boss's swing timer by 24%, or 1/(1-.24) - 1 = 31.6% haste. Meaning an increase of 1% parry reduction ~ .316% decrease in auto-attack dps. The valuation this actually holds is dependent upon which boss you are fighting, and what your avoidance is currently.

Hope this helped, cheers.

 

Dralmoo

I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts on [Commendation of Kael'thas] at the higher end of gear. Generally I would run the [Scarab of Displacement] and the [Shadowmoon Insignia]. I was thinking for fights like Archimonde where you're in some danger for a specific time period, the click trinket is better, but for something like Shaz/Kalecgos/Brutallus, where gibs are always at least possible, to try the Commendation.

Anyone have any practical experience with it for these fights?

 

Suesse

What would be cool is if someone could write a mod or a combat log analysis program to determine how often you go below 35% health. If you're going that low somewhat frequently, but not dieing, I think it's a good trinket. If you're not, I think it's just a nice stamina trinket, probably only worthwhile when you need to maximize your health.

 

Ivanstone

WWS can track the Commendation Proc.

This WWS from my first Archimonde Kill shows the Evasive Maneuvers buff lighting up 3 times.

I thought I would try the CoK out that night along with Moroes. I can't definitively say it ever saved my bacon although I noticed a single avoidance streak coinciding with an activation.

 

Healranktwo

The Sunwell Radiance buff is definately active. I was seeing my dodge rate at 13%, parries at 22%, and misses at 7% (this includes the hunter sting). For having about 70% raw avoidance, that was way off.

I'm interested in hearing what tanks think about the fights in SW, particually Brutallus. I was thinking about gemming 10 dodge gems into red slots and the new Sunwell gear after my first week in there, since AC isn't as effective (at least that's what it seems like to me during a stomp) and I thought you would need A LOT more health to survive an instant gib from a stomp + MH/OH hit on Brutallus. This week though, I ran with a spec that had imp demo, and had one of our locks spec for shadow embrace. I gained about 1k more health or so from gear too (I gemmed for stam on my new gear too, just because of old time's sake ><), and I actually managed to survive 2-3 stomp + MH/OH hits (with no heals inbetween) over the course of 5 attempts or so on Brutallus before our kill. I don't think the dodge gems would have saved me there, so I'm really confused about how I should go about my gear atm. I have always favored EH (Armor + HP) over avoidance, but it does seem like even if it comes down to luck, you NEED to get lucky on some fights in the Sunwell (Being up top on Kalecgos with 2 healers, Brutallus stomp + MH/OH hit in the same second, and Felmyst 2 shotting you on corrosion comes to mind).

What are your thoughts guys?

EDIT: I noticed I started a little rant, so my question was really what gems do everyone think are good now? Continue with 15 stam or are 10 dodge gems the new king?

 

galzohar

You'll never actually be able to tell wether that trinket saved you or not as you can't tell wether you would've dodged or not without the use/proc. It doesn't make it any better/worse though.

As for chance of burst reduction from expertise, remmeber that double parry is not the only kind of burst, which is why it's so near-impossible to figure out. In my experience single parries (combined with no avoidance for 2-4 hits of course) are often more than enough to cause trouble. Since the definition of "burst" is not clear, or in other words there are many different levels of "burst", it's far from straight-forward to estimate burst chance reduction you get from expertise/avoidance. The sure thing though is that when bad luck rolls, the only thing that stands for you is your HP and armor (and shield block value for 2 hits every 5 seconds, or first 2 hits in a short block-parryhaste-block-hit/crush kind of burst which I think is the most common death reason that isn't "healers were sleeping").


In general use should be better when low healing periods are predictable and the proc when they aren't. Of course the proc trinket also has crazy amounts of stamina that help regardless of avoidance rolls, as again, using/proccing more avoidance simply reduces the average healing needed (which means if you for some reason have less healers healing you for a few seconds they may be able to not be forced to use their less-efficient-higher-HPS heals as much) and the chance of a burst, but doesn't reduce the actual possible burst that you still need to be able to handle with the minimum number of healers you're going to have at any one time in a fight.

 

Suesse

True, but this forces you to wear the trinket to find out if it's any good on each fight which is rather backwards. This information also doesn't tell you anything about low health spikes when the trinket was on cooldown. 3 procs could be the only 3 times you were low, so if these happened back-to-back next time, it would only proc once the whole fight.