The Protection Guide - Page 50

Riot · 04/08/08, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteknight

Brutallus is rather wierd. I noticed anecdotally that my opening thunderclap *never* gets resisted on him. I thought this was rather odd - any prot tank can tell you of the frustration of trying to get the first TC up with resist, resist, etc.

I went back and looked over all our attempts on brutallus and out of 359 thunderclaps, 8 total have been resisted. That's a 2.2% miss rate.

Over a standard BT run, I'm used to seeing closer to 8% resist rate - and that's with wearing much more +hit and such than I do for Brutallus.

I think Brut in particular has an artificially lowered chance to resist certain spells - thunderclap, demo and taunt being among them.

Is that possible to micromanage? Maybe melee in general need less hit on Brutallus?

suicuique · 04/09/08, 5:03 AM

Originally Posted by Riot

Is that possible to micromanage? Maybe melee in general need less hit on Brutallus?

If one can take advantage from this, it would be casters not the melee.
If I am not mistaken my miss rate on swings was as to be expected.
Just taunt never missed for me, and TC rarely. Which is unusual.

I suppose a caster could enlighten us if resist rates on Brutallus are lower than expected.

Healranktwo · 04/09/08, 5:28 AM

BTW, interesting thing I think most tanks noticed on their clear through the gauntlet leading to twins...The Sunwell Radiance buff (-20% dodge, -5% miss) is gone after Felmyst dies. Had a rude awakening on the trash when all my avoidance started to kick in full gear =P

Xunwael · 04/09/08, 7:51 AM

Originally Posted by suicuique

If one can take advantage from this, it would be casters not the melee.
If I am not mistaken my miss rate on swings was as to be expected.
Just taunt never missed for me, and TC rarely. Which is unusual.

I suppose a caster could enlighten us if resist rates on Brutallus are lower than expected.

Resist rates are definitely not lower than expected. I stupidly attempted him 30ish times with only 15.3% to hit and averaged something like a 3 - 4% resist rate according to WWS (when it should've been 1.7%!).

Can't provide links from work, but if you wanna see them give a yell.

• Jamor · 04/09/08, 9:53 AM

Out of curiosity, is the Dragonscale Encrusted Longblade on Kalecgos' loot table? Has anyone gotten it yet? I was looking through wowJutsu for a few minutes over the weekend and didn't find any on there, and wowhead and those type sites aren't really updated yet for drops.

• goss · 04/09/08, 9:54 AM

We got one our first two kills.

Riot · 04/09/08, 9:55 AM

Kalecgos - NPCs - World of Warcraft

Swap over to Comments for loot tables.

• Jamor · 04/09/08, 10:01 AM

Just because it's in a comment from Feburary, doesn't mean it's on his table now though. Obviously I know it was supposed to be there, it wouldn't be the first time they moved loot (Felspine for example). Just wanted confirmation.

Riot · 04/09/08, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Jamor

Just because it's in a comment from Feburary, doesn't mean it's on his table now though. Obviously I know it was supposed to be there, it wouldn't be the first time they moved loot (Felspine for example). Just wanted confirmation.

Not really going to say much more, but if you look at the date of the screenshots you can see that two of them have a human female Warrior posing with it, and it's dated six days ago.

You can then click on her name, which links eventually to her Armory and see that she's wearing it. Generally comments tend to be decent sources of information.

Zedd · 04/09/08, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Jamor

Out of curiosity, is the Dragonscale Encrusted Longblade on Kalecgos' loot table? Has anyone gotten it yet? I was looking through wowJutsu for a few minutes over the weekend and didn't find any on there, and wowhead and those type sites aren't really updated yet for drops.

A Guild on my server has one, Ill Link their dkpsite below.
The Last Watch DKP: Raid Summary

Skyeh · 04/09/08, 11:31 AM

The sword dropped for me last night (this reset - 3rd week.) So I can confirm it's definitely still on his loot table this week.

Though on the topic of items, what is wrong with [Borderland Fortress Grips]'s ilvl? It seems to be ilvl 141 off of an ilvl 159 dropping boss... At least based on its armor level, which is the same as Gorefiend's gloves.

• Valoran · 04/09/08, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Skyeh

Though on the topic of items, what is wrong with [Borderland Fortress Grips]'s ilvl? It seems to be ilvl 141 off of an ilvl 159 dropping boss... At least based on its armor level, which is the same as Gorefiend's gloves.

It use to be a trash drop, and was moved to Felmyst, it seems like they just forgot to change anything. That or there's some discrepancy with the armor value.

Suesse · 04/09/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Valoran

It use to be a trash drop, and was moved to Felmyst, it seems like they just forgot to change anything. That or there's some discrepancy with the armor value.

True. However, even trash drops aren't item level 141. Perhaps it was originally designed to be added to BT/MH like the new shaman weapons, but got stuck in Sunwell by someone who didn't understand itemization.

Borodin · 04/09/08, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Xunwael

Resist rates are definitely not lower than expected. I stupidly attempted him 30ish times with only 15.3% to hit and averaged something like a 3 - 4% resist rate according to WWS (when it should've been 1.7%!).

Can't provide links from work, but if you wanna see them give a yell.

This means he probably has a specific vulnerability only to the "Melee Spells" like Taunt and Growl because they are so critical to the fight. Thunder Clap is an unusual addition to this list (I too am used to chain-resists on this from Bosses) but again Thunder Clap could be seen as so important to this fight (he hits so very hard and fast) that it was included.
So there's possibly a Melee Spells category or they add in vulnerabilities by specific spell by name.

An interesting test / comparison would be ZA's Bear Boss who is known to have a weakness to Taunt (because it's needed for the basic tanking requirements that you rotate tanks with form changes).

Might be worth spamming Thunder Claps at him to see if he resists those at the usual 17% rate for a spell or notably less often.
I can't imagine Thunder Clap being specifically listed for the Bear so if it was resisted far less I think it would be fair indication there's something like a Melee Spells category for which a boss can receive a resist penalty.

• Valoran · 04/09/08, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Suesse

True. However, even trash drops aren't item level 141. Perhaps it was originally designed to be added to BT/MH like the new shaman weapons, but got stuck in Sunwell by someone who didn't understand itemization.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't armor the sole value being used for the item level calculation? The value of the stats themselves are fairly high. Compare [Borderland Fortress Grips] (allegedly 141) to [Royal Gauntlets of Silvermoon] (138) and you notice a 7 stamina, 23 armor, 3 dodge rating, 28 parry rating increase at the cost of 3 def rating for an item that's 3 item-levels higher. Those numbers don't add up for a mere 3 item levels difference. I'd be willing to bet the actual item level of these gloves is closer to 154 and the armor value is just flat out typo-ed.

• Jamor · 04/09/08, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Riot

Not really going to say much more, but if you look at the date of the screenshots you can see that two of them have a human female Warrior posing with it, and it's dated six days ago.

You can then click on her name, which links eventually to her Armory and see that she's wearing it. Generally comments tend to be decent sources of information.

Yep -- didn't even think to look at the SS.

Suesse · 04/09/08, 12:57 PM

Item level is available without calculations through the game. The armor value is correct for the item level too. It's possible that this item is "over budget" but remember the formula for item budget is something like (a^(3/2) + b^(3/2 )+ c^(3/2))^(2/3), so you can easily add a large amount of an extra stat, if you take off a couple points from the other stats.

Healranktwo · 04/09/08, 12:59 PM

Hmm, looks like I was lucky or wrong. Looking at our twins attempt parses, my dodge rate is still incredibly low. Perhapes it's because of the quick wipes, but it doesn't feel right when you are only dodging about 1/3 of what you should.

mistersix · 04/09/08, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Quigon

Seems alright, but giving up expertise is probably not a wise choice given the consequences of sunwell mobs having parry feedback. Already heard more than a few stories about that tonight. I'll be editing the OP soon.

What sort of update did you have in mind when you mentioned this -- re-articulating your stance on expertise or expanding on the item recommendations with the new loot?

Mode · 04/10/08, 12:54 AM

Might be worth spamming Thunder Claps at him to see if he resists those at the usual 17% rate for a spell or notably less often.
I can't imagine Thunder Clap being specifically listed for the Bear so if it was resisted far less I think it would be fair indication there's something like a Melee Spells category for which a boss can receive a resist penalty.

I did not do a rigorous analysis, but after looking at a sample size of several dozen tclaps, I found exactly one resist. My guess is that the bear boss and similar tauntable bosses have a lower 'physical resistance', just like how Supremus has a higher fire resist and it has no effect on fire mages need for +hit.

Rukiia · 04/10/08, 6:29 AM

I was wondering if people could give their views on gemming for Sunwell. Quickly browsing a few armoury profiles there is a difference between 15 sta vs 10 dodge. Is it simply that after X hp that people are just going purely for avoidence?

Touf · 04/10/08, 6:50 AM

Originally Posted by Rukiia

I was wondering if people could give their views on gemming for Sunwell. Quickly browsing a few armoury profiles there is a difference between 15 sta vs 10 dodge. Is it simply that after X hp that people are just going purely for avoidence?

Personally I don't feel that gemming for avoidance is much, if at all, better, and we're always short on spinels. That and even if it was better, there's always the potential for a fight where you do need that 1k more health, so...15 stam all the way.

Rukiia · 04/10/08, 6:54 AM

The fight that im really questioning is Brutallus. Surely after 21/22k that dodge is better. You would need to get like 25/26k to survive another swing? However with the Sunwell aura its making life rather confusing regarding gem/gear choice. I would also be interested to hear peoples views regarding hit vs expertise because there is next to no hit on any of the new items. This trade off seems ok ... but i dont like not being hit caped.

zork · 04/10/08, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by Xaviera

I don't believe +hit has anything to do with the low resist chance on Brutallus. It was changed since PTR, where he had the standard boss resist rate. Now, on live, people are reporting very, very low resist chances - all wearing the same 37 ( I believe) hit rating, or close to it. (20 from Pendant of Titans, 17 from Myrmidons). That's all I've worn, with my offtank, and we've seen 1 taunt resist ever in all our attempts since PTR, and I think that's just the standard 1% (might even be lower than 1%), that you can never get rid of with spells.

That sounds wierd. I thought Thunderclap and Demoralising Shout are affected by spell hit?

I see 16% miss for Thunderclap and Demoralising Shout in my BT and MH parses (that seems to be perfect since I have zero spell hit)

Data from our first Archimonde kill: WWS (15.4% Thunderclap miss)

Taunt is affected by melee hit though (According to 2.2 or 2.3 patchnotes), but I heard rumors about a "resisted" taunt with more than 142 hit rating, which should not be possible if Taunt is affected by melee hit.

Ihmes · 04/10/08, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by zork

That sounds wierd. I thought Thunderclap and Demoralising Shout are affected by spell hit?

I see 16% miss for Thunderclap and Demoralising Shout in my BT and MH parses (that seems to be perfect since I have zero spell hit)

Data from our first Archimonde kill: WWS (15.4% Thunderclap miss)

Taunt is affected by melee hit though (According to 2.2 or 2.3 patchnotes), but I heard rumors about a "resisted" taunt with more than 142 hit rating, which should not be possible if Taunt is affected by melee hit.

Tclap and demoshout were never affected by melee hit rating. I had 4,5% resist rate on tclap (few trash mobs included) on night of tries on brutallus, which was waay lower than it should've. Also i didn't note any taunt resist on the boss. I never watched the tclap and demoshout resist rates on ZA bear boss, so can't compare to that. But based on taunt, i'd think that both two mobs got some kind of lowered resist rate on physical spells (at least taunt+growl as spells, tclap and demo on brutallus).

Btw, are there any other physical spells that can be resisted? Rupture? If there's something like that, wouldn't hurt to test them on brutallus to see if it's warrior/druid spesific or whole physical school.

Tl;dr: The spellhit affecting tclap+demoshout doesn't apply to brutallus since he's vulnerable to physical spells, decreasing resist rates like spellhit would.