I always like to think a good Prot Warrior below Tempest Keep should have about 15K Health Unbuffed. Any more and you're wasting stats taht should be spent elsewhere.
I had 20-23k through most of tier 4 and 5. 15k is way too low.
Stamina is very, very powerful up through the end of tier 5, including Kael. In fact, it isn't until T6 where the avoidance gear truly starts giving high returns.
You can get by with 15k, but that doesn't mean you should.
Did some testings with parry at 48 expertise (-12% parry) on Gruul and Mag.
Weekend run with a lot of new players (semi casual guild, so we have a lot of those, don't mind the wipes/low DPS): Wow Web Stats
Still had around 1 to 3% parry on the boss tries. I tanked both Gruul and Mag, don't let the DPS on Gruul mislead you :P
So.. it certainly is above 12%, but I doubt it's higher than 15-16%. Of course - not a huge sample and different bosses can have different parry ratings, but..
Just did a ton of raiding wearing 15.75% parry reduction and saw absolutely no parries in thousands and thousands of swings. So now we just need to test 15% and below, since the previous 15.25 testing I did had no parries although it was a smaller sample. I'll be trying in BT Monday as I said with a ~14% set.
I had 20-23k through most of tier 4 and 5. 15k is way too low.
Stamina is very, very powerful up through the end of tier 5, including Kael. In fact, it isn't until T6 where the avoidance gear truly starts giving high returns.
You can get by with 15k, but that doesn't mean you should.
I think you should reread his post.
Specifically, the word *unbuffed*.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Even then, if you can get more, you should by any means. Makes most fights a lot easier, with very few exceptions (namely Morogrim and Karathress I guess, where avoidance is better - but you don't have nearly enough avoidance gear to really make it shine).
@Xav: so, > 12% and < 15.25/75%? Probably around 13-14% then. I usually wear around 9% for progression fights (guild starting BT, 4/5 hyjal, 1/9 BT), so I'll probably not effectively cap my expertise soon :P
Completely off topic I know but does anyone use a good tankpoints addon alternative. Mine stopped working since last patch, and i can't get it to work without dishing out constant .lua errors.
Yeah, and 15k unbuffed is about 2-3k too low. A tank can readily figure out where 21-23k buffed starts from... 17-18k unbuffed. I didn't assume he was 15k buffed... shamans and hunters can hit 15k buffed.
Yeah, and 15k unbuffed is about 2-3k too low. A tank can readily figure out where 21-23k buffed starts from... 17-18k unbuffed. I didn't assume he was 15k buffed... shamans and hunters can hit 15k buffed.
17-18k unbuffed in the Pre-TK level is something only a tauren stacking only stamina gems can obtain. Nowadays it might be barely obtainable by non-tauren tanks with all the new gear out there with lots of stamina and sockets for more stamina. I know I tanked all of TK and below level, and then TK aswell with no more than 17k unbuffed, probably in the 16000 range, actually. Even if I went all out with stamina everywhere it might have only just broken 17k.
Completely off topic I know but does anyone use a good tankpoints addon alternative. Mine stopped working since last patch, and i can't get it to work without dishing out constant .lua errors.
The bug is caused by having the T6 helm equipped (it will work with every other helm). I know this is probably not the answer you are looking for but it's better than nothing.
Yeah, and 15k unbuffed is about 2-3k too low. A tank can readily figure out where 21-23k buffed starts from... 17-18k unbuffed. I didn't assume he was 15k buffed... shamans and hunters can hit 15k buffed.
You have 18k hp unbuffed in t6 gear with epic gems. You're expecting people to have that same hp from Kara, Gruul and Mag alone?
IMO it's less about wehter you need more HP or not, but more than getting above 15k unbuffed HP is going to do nothing but help you, and is anything but a waste of stats that could've been used elsewhere...
You have 18k hp unbuffed in t6 gear with epic gems. You're expecting people to have that same hp from Kara, Gruul and Mag alone?
He is speaking past tense. In t5 content, while progressing, his hp pool was as large as it is now. His gear has changed, but his hp pool has remained constant apparently.
Pre-badge gear, I know I was sitting at 16k hp as prot. I didn't have many of the t5 set pieces either, so this isn't that far a stretch. esp given the parallel gear progression available.
17-18k unbuffed in the Pre-TK level is something only a tauren stacking only stamina gems can obtain. Nowadays it might be barely obtainable by non-tauren tanks with all the new gear out there with lots of stamina and sockets for more stamina. I know I tanked all of TK and below level, and then TK aswell with no more than 17k unbuffed, probably in the 16000 range, actually. Even if I went all out with stamina everywhere it might have only just broken 17k.
Tauren is a whopping 750 hp out of that. If I was giving numbers for tauren, I would've said, tauren. A tauren can get 19000 unbuffed with a few reasonable Kara/tier 4/5 items. And stacking stamina gems is a smart move pre-tier 6 as well.
I think Mjolnir summed up my fairly obvious post quite well.
Stamina and armor are very important until Tier 6... minus perhaps morogrim. My total HP now is lower than it was in tier 5 gear - even in Karazhan, our first tank (who wasn't tauren) who tanked Maulgar, had 22k HP buffed - this was pre-ANY tier 4/5 epic... just kara/badge/rep/whatever. Today it would be much easier.
Even in avoidance gear, you shouldn't have to drop 2-3k on your unbuffed unless you're gemming, which isn't providing the same returns as you'll get pre-dodge/t6 gear.
The mobs before tier 6 just do not hit very hard at all - and often have a lot of magical or elemental attacks. But anyway this whole discussion has already been laid out on this page... and a few others in fact. You have to keep things in perspective.
The bug is caused by having the T6 helm equipped (it will work with every other helm). I know this is probably not the answer you are looking for but it's better than nothing.
Yah that bug is very frustrating though when my itemrack has T6 helm in 2 of my tank sets which I use on farm content :-)
I'm not sure if I did the calculations wrong, but it appears to me that the new engineering goggles are better than the Crown of Dath'remar. It looks like the goggles are an upgrade in every area except stamina. What are everyone's thoughts on this?
Also: I recently picked up LW for drums, but I see most tanks go JC/ENCH for tradeskills. My question is: how good is 11 stamina/8 str/8agi really? Seeing as the Dragonscale Encrusted Longblade is a 1.5s speed and already has haste, not to mention the chest with haste, it seems to me that the haste from the drums would stack nicely.
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Stamina and armor are very important until Tier 6... minus perhaps morogrim. My total HP now is lower than it was in tier 5 gear - even in Karazhan, our first tank (who wasn't tauren) who tanked Maulgar, had 22k HP buffed - this was pre-ANY tier 4/5 epic... just kara/badge/rep/whatever. Today it would be much easier.
Nerfed Alchemy should also be factored in as well. We gained a lot more HP before 2.1 from alchemy than we do now.
Duty is heavier than a mountain, Death is lighter than a feather.
I would have to say it's easily attainable (17,000 Unbuffed HP). Alot of people tend to overlook alot of items for whatever reason. A few commonly missed items that teir 4-5~ tanks seem to commonly overlook.
Not going to Include the Isle of Quel'danas or whatever it's named. There may be some realms without the badge vendor. With the availability of this list of gear it is readily achievable to attain 17k unbuffed. Personally though there are some things you'd like to retain. Note: Some of the SSC/TK gear may or may not drop depending on the RNG factors of the current loot system I suppose but there are alternatives readily available for pickup via badge rewards or Zul'Aman
Take every peace of tanking gear you can get your hands on however. Some nights you don't have the group synergy to feed your threat cycle needs. Some fights you have too much rage to burn. Gear and spec according to the fight. I believe this has been stressed countless times during the 56 pages of comments on this thread. Personally I can never answer the question:
"How much hp/dodge/parry/armor/etc do you have or should you have?" I always reply with:
"Enough!"
Edit: Logged out in badge/ZA/minor SSC/TK items @ 17,564 hp as a dranei. The shield and cloak are -300~ health but still above 17,000. Shield/cloak assuming you have the Shield from Nightbane or silk's cloak of pacification/phonex wing cloak.
Last edited by Kannojo : 04/22/08 at 12:39 PM.
Reason: Additional Note
I'm not sure if I did the calculations wrong, but it appears to me that the new engineering goggles are better than the Crown of Dath'remar. It looks like the goggles are an upgrade in every area except stamina. What are everyone's thoughts on this?
Also: I recently picked up LW for drums, but I see most tanks go JC/ENCH for tradeskills. My question is: how good is 11 stamina/8 str/8agi really? Seeing as the Dragonscale Encrusted Longblade is a 1.5s speed and already has haste, not to mention the chest with haste, it seems to me that the haste from the drums would stack nicely.
Crown has the same armor, 5 more defense, potentially more tenable sockets.
Avoidance is:
Defense +13.53 (1.62% dodge, parry, miss, total) vs 21.56 (2.59% dodge, parry, miss, total)
Dodge +53 vs 35 (2.80 dodge, vs 1.85 dodge)
Parry +33 vs 0 (1.40 parry, vs 0 parry)
Hit +0 vs +27
Total is 5.82% avoidance, 5 stamina, vs 4.44% avoidance and some hit.
So, I think you might have done your calculation wrong. Goggles are not an upgrade in any area except hit and gimmicky stuff, since defense is a pseudo area as we can assume crit immunity - they are not overall superior in avoidance, the three stats are commensurate.
Unless you are going for some form of TPS/Avoidance hybrid - which is why I put the goggles on the aggro build.
Quigon, I see you still dismiss the avoidance meta gems. What do you think about the new 12 def +10% BV gem, is it only good for threat? The yellow gem requirement seems to be covered with the new goggles and/or the new shoulders.
The possible merits of preserving the T6 4pc set bonus could also be included in the first post directly and not just in the way you simply do not list a set with 4 T6.
The agro gear set could also use a substitute for the engineerin goggles as not everyone still clings to that profession.
Just did a ton of raiding wearing 15.75% parry reduction and saw absolutely no parries in thousands and thousands of swings. So now we just need to test 15% and below, since the previous 15.25 testing I did had no parries although it was a smaller sample. I'll be trying in BT Monday as I said with a ~14% set.
Wearing 60 Expertise Skill (-15%) i had 0 parries in ~1000 swings on bosses. Removing Shapeshifter's Signet (-13,75%) i observed 1 parry in about 200 swings. Almost there.
edit: adjusted swing number using -13,75% ( trash != bosses)
Thanks for the parry tests, we're almost there! On that note in your opinions how much expertise over dodge cap is "worth" the cost? More steady damage to the tank yes, but in general are you taking more damage since you have less avoidance? Or are you shooting for more steady damage so healers don't have to heal through your random dodge spikes?
I'm hesitant to move into more expertise past dodge cap. Just would like to hear from the guys wearing 14% reduction to parry.
I too don't bother stacking expertise past 6.25% in my full tank set, heavy avoidance.ac.stam. I've checked my logs and don't recall a lot of times where getting parried caused an issue with spike dmg. I'm real curious to know how much avoidance should be sacrificed for expertise point per point.
Like i said past the dodge cap i prioritize avoidance over expertise.
Realize a ton of the best in slot mitigation gear out of Sunwell also includes a ton of expertise so the cap wouldn't be that hard to hit. But it is kind of important to figure out what the cap is so that you never get beyond that.
Thanks for the parry tests, we're almost there! On that note in your opinions how much expertise over dodge cap is "worth" the cost? More steady damage to the tank yes, but in general are you taking more damage since you have less avoidance? Or are you shooting for more steady damage so healers don't have to heal through your random dodge spikes?
I'm hesitant to move into more expertise past dodge cap. Just would like to hear from the guys wearing 14% reduction to parry.
As someone said before, as with everything we do, it is situational. An easy way to think about it, at least for me is this: Think about the way that expertise works, it reduces the chance for you to get parried/dodged. Meaning that the more melee damage you are tanking, and the more you are hitting the boss, the more it could be a factor. The more spell damage you are taking, and the less you are hitting the boss, the less you need it. It's not a hard and fast deal, and of course things like elementals that are meleeing you make it a bit tricker, but i think it holds. For example, if you are tanking Lady Malande on the Illidari Council fight, expertise is pretty much a non issue. She casts all the time, and she is either bop'd or shielded most of the fight, and usually no one dpses her expect maybe a rogue helping you interrupt. A fight that would have been really nice to have expertised capped to eliminate parry is the shaman add on Fathom Lord. He has windfury, melees a ton, and it would be really nice to never get parried.
Most boss fights however, are different than the aforementioned examples. Which is why most tanks play it safe, and just stick to eliminating dodges, which helps with threat quite a bit, without dropping other stats to get enough to eliminate parry. If Blizzard would get their heads out of their asses and give us an expertise gem or two, we could play with it a bit more, but as of yet this is not the case.
Duty is heavier than a mountain, Death is lighter than a feather.
04/19/08, 9:37 PM
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