Honestly at the level where you would be gemming with rare..no. Reason is the +4Agi equates to Armor + Dodge + Threat (in the form of crit) where as the dodge only increases one stat by a little bit more. The only time gemming for avoidance becomes a real issue is when you hit sunwell.
Honestly at the level where you would be gemming with rare..no. Reason is the +4Agi equates to Armor + Dodge + Threat (in the form of crit) where as the dodge only increases one stat by a little bit more. The only time gemming for avoidance becomes a real issue is when you hit sunwell.
I'm curious to hear about this gemming for avoidance to negate the sunwell plateau radiance ... How many of you tanks have regemmed their gear with red +10 dodge or +10 parry and started hitting the socket bonuses ? I've already started with some pieces, however i'm wondering if its really going to make a noticeable difference in the end .
Don't do that. Parry is considerably less avoidance than dodge.
Quite a few people have regemmed for avoidance, however. It's certainly the way to go for Brutallus - the others are debatable. Read the last few pages in this thread for further information.
Don't do that. Parry is considerably less avoidance than dodge.
Quite a few people have regemmed for avoidance, however. It's certainly the way to go for Brutallus - the others are debatable. Read the last few pages in this thread for further information.
I personally haven't used parry either, however i've seen some go with +10 parry which i don't understand. As you said dodge makes a noticeable difference versus parry return.
I had a thought though is it possible to gear + gem for parry/block and avoid going dodge all together. I assume if you have less than 20% dodge the sunwell radiance will just remove all of it together.
I had a thought though is it possible to gear + gem for parry/block and avoid going dodge all together. I assume if you have less than 20% dodge the sunwell radiance will just remove all of it together.
Most warriors in avoidance gear will have well over 30% dodge even without gemming for it, so it won't be completely removed.
Most warriors in avoidance gear will have well over 30% dodge even without gemming for it, so it won't be completely removed.
Yes this makes sense zliplus but I was questioning avoiding the " DODGE " and pushing for parry/block with gear and regemming. Has anyone tested this theory , Is this possible without gimping your gear ?
Yes this makes sense zliplus but I was questioning avoiding the " DODGE " and pushing for parry/block with gear and regemming. Has anyone tested this theory , Is this possible without gimping your gear ?
By nature it *is* gimping your gear.
Just because you reduce the amount of avoidance removed by sunwell radiance (as it cannot drop below zero), this will lead to lower levels of avoidance overall.
Also, you really should be editing your posts. Multiple postings are frowned on in this forum.
quick item question/comment: aren't [Hard Khorium Goggles] better than [Faceplate of the Impenetrable] for both styles? Armor and Stam are slightly better and you gain 20 def rating vs 3 dodge rating and the Shield Block Rating/Value. Am I underestimating the mitigation value of the shield stats?
HKG is probably better, but the rarity of the item is something to be truly irritating...
The difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning. - Mark Twain
Xavastrasz , how do you find yourself on threat with zero hit rating in your tank gear.
The gear I log out with on armory is not any specific gear I wear for boss fights, it's awkward you'd think my "tank gear" is whatever you see on the armory. I have many sets of gear and tons of pieces to mix and match with. Holding threat, however, is not a problem.
For threat, I've a gearset that maxes hit (9%) and expertise (15%) while retaining 16.5k hp 30% dodge 20% parry 500 block unbuffed
For avoidance, I've a gearset that is 20 hit rating 8.5% expertise, 40% dodge, 24% parry, 550 block, 15.7k hp unbuffed (need many more epic red gems)
For "HP" I've a gearset that is 21 hit rating, 12.25% expertise, 32% dodge 23% parry 550 block, 18200 unbuffed HP
Any tank will mix and match things to better suit the needs of the encounter, if they know what they're doing and playing properly. However, logging off in a gearset that really "makes sense" is something that doesn't really occur with any thought and just happens to be whatever itemrack button I hit and however outdated it is.
quick item question/comment: aren't [Hard Khorium Goggles] better than [Faceplate of the Impenetrable] for both styles? Armor and Stam are slightly better and you gain 20 def rating vs 3 dodge rating and the Shield Block Rating/Value. Am I underestimating the mitigation value of the shield stats?
Having a pair of [Hard Khorium Goggles], I can't see taking Illidan's hat anymore. The only real reason to take it would be for my gimmick passive crush immunity set. I guess I fall in the lucky boat where the HKG dropped our first night in sunwell, but it worked out well since I never got an Illidan hat in 15ish kills. As far as the item itself, I think it's well worth the engineering profession I kept around. The extra hit will help smooth out the hit loss when I get the T6 boots, as well as the neck/cloak from sunwell.
On another note, the patch notes say they changed the stats on [Borderland Fortress Grips]. Would anyone on PTR with them be kind enough to share the new stats?
Something that I think is missing from this guide would be the introduction of [Formula: Enchant Cloak - Steelweave]. This enchant's avoidance from the defense comes out to .81% total avoidance, which would trump it for an avoidance enchant over dodge.
The math I used just in case I screwed up somewhere
12rating/2.3654(conversion taken from this guide) = 5.073 skill * .04 = .203 avoidance added to Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block * 4 = .8117% total avoidance
Where exactly would the Commendation fall on the list? Combined with Moroes' effect, thats a lot of avoidance.
Also, wouldn't the new exalted necklace be better than the Brooch for tanking? It has the same stamina, a little less hit/expertise, but it also procs often for 100 expertise for scryer and 100 dodge for aldor.
Quigon, I see you still dismiss the avoidance meta gems. What do you think about the new 12 def +10% BV gem, is it only good for threat?
I haven't updated red gems yet, but I had put a note about the value of avoidance gems in sunwell in the gem section (and why); where I also mentioned how wonderful the new meta gem is.
I think the new meta gem is the hands down winner for both aggro and mitigation, even before gemming red.
Something that I think is missing from this guide would be the introduction of [Formula: Enchant Cloak - Steelweave]. This enchant's avoidance from the defense comes out to .81% total avoidance, which would trump it for an avoidance enchant over dodge.
The math I used just in case I screwed up somewhere
12rating/2.3654(conversion taken from this guide) = 5.073 skill * .04 = .203 avoidance added to Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block * 4 = .8117% total avoidance
12 defense rating is less pure avoidance than 12 dodge rating. It's ~0.6% avoidance on the defense enchant vs ~0.64% on the dodge enchant.
Block is not avoidance, it's mitigation. Miss, dodge and parry are avoidance. Block only becomes avoidance when your block value is greater than the damage you would take when you get hit. You won't encounter very many progression fights where that happens.
There is some value in the enchant if you're looking to become passively crush or crit immune, but it's an inferior avoidance enchant.
procs often for 100 expertise for scryer and 100 dodge for aldor.
The problem with this neck is mainly Scryer-side. If you're stacking expertise, and would be obviously wearing this neck with said set, all or part of its proc is wasted.
By the same token, for Aldor, there's no way cap dodge, but the neck is obviously stam/threat. Granted, burst dodge isn't a bad thing, but if you actually want the proc, you're going to be wearing a defensive oriented neck. Yes, expertise swings both ways with regards to defense/offense, but again, the neck can't really decide what category it wants to be.
The problem with this neck is mainly Scryer-side. If you're stacking expertise, and would be obviously wearing this neck with said set, all or part of its proc is wasted.
By the same token, for Aldor, there's no way cap dodge, but the neck is obviously stam/threat. Granted, burst dodge isn't a bad thing, but if you actually want the proc, you're going to be wearing a defensive oriented neck. Yes, expertise swings both ways with regards to defense/offense, but again, the neck can't really decide what category it wants to be.
I am Aldor and I find that I use the neck alot. The proc uptime is fairly high (from what I have noticed - no official numbers) and then threat stats are great. I think about the only fights I dont wear this neck are Council/Archimonde/Kalecgos as these are the only fights that I dont have DPS chasing my ass on Omen.
12 defense rating is less pure avoidance than 12 dodge rating. It's ~0.6% avoidance on the defense enchant vs ~0.64% on the dodge enchant.
Block is not avoidance, it's mitigation. Miss, dodge and parry are avoidance. Block only becomes avoidance when your block value is greater than the damage you would take when you get hit. You won't encounter very many progression fights where that happens.
There is some value in the enchant if you're looking to become passively crush or crit immune, but it's an inferior avoidance enchant.
There are other aspects to consider. Block chance will always be bonus mitigation. Its not especially useful but is still there for use against fast attackers and multiple attacks. Miss chance is omnidirectional, dodge (and parry) are restricted to the front arc. Miss chance may also be applicable when you're in some way incapacitated (ex stunned or feared) although I am not 100% sure about this. Increased parry chance is always a net gain in DPS at the expense of your opponent receiving more chances to parry you.
These are admittedly small factors but so is the avoidance difference between dodge and defense rating. The only important consideration is the defense rating to defense skill conversion where you may lose fractional avoidance due to skill rounding.
I went with the Steelweave enchant on my avoidance cloak simply because I liked that miss chance is more universal.
There are other aspects to consider. Block chance will always be bonus mitigation. Its not especially useful but is still there for use against fast attackers and multiple attacks. Miss chance is omnidirectional, dodge (and parry) are restricted to the front arc. Miss chance may also be applicable when you're in some way incapacitated (ex stunned or feared) although I am not 100% sure about this. Increased parry chance is always a net gain in DPS at the expense of your opponent receiving more chances to parry you.
These are admittedly small factors but so is the avoidance difference between dodge and defense rating. The only important consideration is the defense rating to defense skill conversion where you may lose fractional avoidance due to skill rounding.
I went with the Steelweave enchant on my avoidance cloak simply because I liked that miss chance is more universal.
Since it is such a small difference, the value in steelweave may be that it's simply easier to reach the defense cap, so that you can swap more gear that lacks defense rating.
There are other aspects to consider. Block chance will always be bonus mitigation. Its not especially useful but is still there for use against fast attackers and multiple attacks. Miss chance is omnidirectional, dodge (and parry) are restricted to the front arc. Miss chance may also be applicable when you're in some way incapacitated (ex stunned or feared) although I am not 100% sure about this. Increased parry chance is always a net gain in DPS at the expense of your opponent receiving more chances to parry you.
These are admittedly small factors but so is the avoidance difference between dodge and defense rating. The only important consideration is the defense rating to defense skill conversion where you may lose fractional avoidance due to skill rounding.
I went with the Steelweave enchant on my avoidance cloak simply because I liked that miss chance is more universal.
You bring up a completely different point than the post I was replying to. I didn't say it was a pointless enchant, only that it wasn't superior to dodge for pure avoidance. His facts were wrong.
I could just as easily play devil's advocate for every point you bring up in your post. It's entirely subjective and the merits of your gear will vary for each fight. There are some fights one enchant will outperform the other. Personally, I'd rather have the extra pure avoidance against anything that hits hard (like Brutallus) - a 0.04% chance to avoid 9-10k damage is mathematically better than a 0.20% chance to block 500 damage. That's why distinguishing between avoidance and mitigation is important and why people shouldn't co-mingle the concepts.
Sorry to jump in, but I have a question about Hydross resist set:
I'm almost complete, minus the neck piece and some random small things. But my defense falls so far below 490 I'm confused as to how you warriors keep above 490. I equipted and old shield and the maiden gloves for extra defense rating at the cost of my epeen, but I'm struggling hardcore with this defense rating. Can someone give me a quick overview of what you all do to keep the def. rating up? thx
Sorry to jump in, but I have a question about Hydross resist set:
I'm almost complete, minus the neck piece and some random small things. But my defense falls so far below 490 I'm confused as to how you warriors keep above 490. I equipted and old shield and the maiden gloves for extra defense rating at the cost of my epeen, but I'm struggling hardcore with this defense rating. Can someone give me a quick overview of what you all do to keep the def. rating up? thx
What I did when we first encountered Hydross is get my set up to close to the cap, enough where the pally or hunter buff has me hit the cap. Then I went back to what slots werent being used by resistance pieces. For me that ended up being, gloves, shoulders, bracers, boots, and trinkets +1 ring slot. I used my [Adamantine Figurine] for one slot and [Dabiri's Enigma] for the other. I cant recall my ring, but find one that has high defense on it. Then for the other spots I went back into kara and picked up duplicate peices of [Iron Gauntlets of the Maiden], [Battlescar Boots], [Vambraces of Courage], and T4 shoulders. I socketed them all with [Thick Dawnstone]. Hope that helps, if I am way off someone correct me
04/22/08, 7:46 PM
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