rayijin

I find my usefulness in multi-mob tanking (hyjal and some bt trash) is two primary things:

1) Debuffing the mobs with tclap/demo shout so that whoever is tanking them (be it a pally, mage or warlock) doesn't get insta-killed.
2) Holding the harder hitting mobs or enough of the mobs (usually 3-4) so that said tank or aoe doesn't get insta-killed.

Examples: Hyjal I focus on pulling the 2-4 abominations off the prot pally and tanking them, so that they won't stun him and cause him to die from all the ghouls he's tanking.

Heroics: Heroics are a special case, but for any number of mobs <= 4, or kara, tclap should hold threat off of a healer unless you are getting hit exceptionally hard. Cleave also works well at building enough threat on offtanked mobs while still letting you continue a full threat rotation against the primary target.

If it's just two hard-hitting mobs: a /targetlasttarget macro and building threat on each individually works very well (for instance, tanking 2 kael weapons). I never used this until kael but now it is a permanent keybind for me.

In all cases, it's what has been said before: Hit a mob hard with a shield slam and HS or cleave, then target the next mob to be tanked and do the same, preceded by a taunt if neccessary, and so on.

 

◊ Quigon

First of all thank you very much for the help.

Okay, I will use most of these values - I'm going to assume they're right.
However, your parry numbers are much different than mine. I got my values from a few notable blue posts, are you sure on this value for parry rating?

This is a fantastic point. I honestly didn't even realize dodge had this complicated baseline. I took it a bit further and put the precise calculation for base-line dodge. I will next add the level 70 naked AGI values so everyone can calculate their base dodge and make sure things are working appropriately. I adjusted all values to be commensurate with this change.
I added deflection to the list of naked protection avoidance terms, as it was an obvious omission.

I am keeping this grammatical error because I think it is easier for most people to read the word "Dice". I know that will drive some people crazy, but I want them to be clear what I mean when I say dice, and die is sometimes ambiguous even if in context.

This has been done, its a good addition.
Also, aggro and threat are used interchangeably - again it works I believe. Nomenclature and terms in MMO's are weird. I'm not going to nitpick this point.

This point is implied by the 2nd graph being linear.

I'm going to add something similar, the rounding up error, but this point is interesting.

I don't believe that there is a tiny chance to be crit regardless of defense however, as I have never seen evidence to support that, unless it is an unusual mob. Even then, I don't know which mobs behave this way.
If someone could provide a list of mobs that crit above 490 defense, that would be more valuable than just saying that its possible.

 

◊ Quigon

I could triple the size of this guide honestly.
There are a lot of things this guide is missing. I think this is certainly one point that I will ultimately add. It is afterall a work in progress.

However, like the individuals who followed you and quoted you - I would suggest people that come up with ideas like this perhaps prime it by contributing some of their own thoughts.

I will certainly write a full multi-mob tanking section soon, but right now I'm going to prioritize the small details, and a DPS rotation section first.

 

Fellwraith

I'd basically agree with this, with one minor addition.
1) Use only Thunderclap to hold one of the mobs at the beginning.
2) When the mob moves to attack a dps, use taunt, shieldslam, and focus your single target threat generation on it for a few seconds. This way you can use taunt mechanics to "leapfrog" up the threat list with only one cooldown and very little rage. If the taunt fails then you use mocking blow. If the mob manages to run away while you're stunned or frost nova'd use intervene, then taunt, shield slam and pull the mob back to the pile.

You need to remember that multi-mob tanking is about maximizing your threat per cooldown. The big abilities for that are revenge and shield slam. They are very efficient at generating lots of threat at a low rage cost and high threat per second. Usually you'll have enough rage from getting hit and shieldblocks (shield specialization) to do what you want.

When you get to Hyjal, you don't want to be a hero, especially with big abomination packs. Pick 3-4 mobs and let your fellow tanks pick up their share. Challenging shout can be lethal (for you) if used incorrectly.

 

Tipme

I just got done reading up to section X. Looks great so far.

What do you think of the desire to be a MT has any effect of being a good MT. I've had a couple Main tanks who seemed they loved it. It's like their life to be MT, standing there taking all the damage and yelling at people.

But let's say a MT has to take a vacation. So it's that fury warrior's turn you've been gearing up with tank loot to spec prot and be MT this week. Of course he agrees or he'll get kicked out or get ridiculed by the guild. and all throughout the raid, he's moaning and groaning, "Can't the feral druid MT?" and just randomly sighing on voice chat.

I guess you could say this applies to all classes as well, but maybe applies to Warriors more.

Would a section on this topic be appropriate for this guide? Similar to, So you rolled a warrior. That means you're gonna have to tank!

 

◊ Quigon

That is definitely a good start you two. Anyone else have more to add to multi target tanking? I personally do not find cleave too effective, and have a few more points - one in particular is taunting from another tank and burning rage on their mob, and don't wasting rage on a mob that isn't on you - use taunt as a means of TPS (hopefully that makes sense).

OK, and as to this...

Mentality is CRITICAL!

Everyone remembers the MC/BWL/AQ40 days i'm sure. Back then tanks started out as tanks. And many of them were "lost" to the evil mortal strike. Big numbers, big dps, big hits is a hugely enticing prospect to many players - they want to crit for hella, and going DPS offers them this.
Having a tank that will stay tank, not because he feels forced to, but because he WANTS! to tank, is incredibly useful. Changing MT's is not a small thing.

Just because you rolled warrior though, does not mean you have to tank, but I think it means you should be ready to tank even if you're declared as DPS.

 

Grayson Carlyle

I'm wondering where the 0.2% more threat number comes from. Since the majority of threat (>75%) comes from the damage by the tank, and armor penetration affects all damage (as you mentioned, 1% increase in DPS), wouldn't that also increase all threat generated from damage by 1%? i.e. >0.75% more threat?

 

Satrina

Glad to help. I write a lot of crap and it takes fair dedication and time to get through it all, realistically. This hits the best parts and adds more on top, making it an excellent one stop reference. If people want more detail they can go searching, but this will get them grounded in what they really need to know.

Parry numbers - Very sure on the number. You can do the math in game while equipping items with parry rating to see that the conversion is 23.6xx. The reference if you'd like to cite it is here: Combat rating system - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (though it's all based on the work of the guy who writes the RatingBuster addon who extracted the values from the game data files and then verified in game)

Dice verse Die - I shall suffer in silence =)

Crits - Yeah, I am very vocal on the increased crit chance myself. Malicious Instructors in Shadow Lab are the most common culprit with screenshots of people at 525 and higher defense taking crits from them. There may be a rounding error at 490 for regular mobs, but there are definitely mobs that crit at very high defense. I talk about a couple of ideas for how the crit cap mechanic might work in the defense article (but that may be a detail people can go looking for if they are really interested)

(I kinda suspect the "once in a blue moon" may be my fault based on the original wording of my defense article, much to my shame.)

 

◊ Quigon

Yeah that value is a typo.
1% more damage is going to be just about 1% more crit in threat. This is about 0.82% more threat.
The reason it isn't a raw 1% increase is due to the base value of threat that abilities have.
I'm simply taking this value from the xls spreadsheet - I could do the full calculation but it is a page of equations.


I'm going to hold off on changing the parry rating value until I do a little more personal research because of this post (which is the value I currently am using):

WoW Forums -> Combat Ratings: Level 70 Conversions

Either way I appreciate the sig figs on the other ones.

 

Satrina

Hopefully this weekend I'll bring evilempireguild.org back online with the updated articles mirrored back from Tankspot. Mind if I add this into the list of things I didn't write?

 

Dagronjr

Does this imply that when using Devastate on a target with no Sunder Armor stacks, that the threat is 106 + 301? Does that make it a better lead off than Shield Slam until there are five stacks, and would this result in it being better for a MT to get the five stacks up himself rather than getting help?

Lastly, does the 301 from Sunder only apply to the initial sunders that apply the debuff? Thanks.

 

Ashlan

This is how devastate works since 2.3

Devastate FAQ - TheorySpot

in short: yes, the first 5 devastates act as if you used devastate and a additional sunder armor at the same time and the inert threat from devastate should be 180 now.

 

Dagronjr

So that makes it a better 5 hit lead off than Shield Slam?

 

Satrina

The sunder that your devastate is applying counts towards the stack for devastate's innate threat. The first devastate you land will do 120 threat (+301 from the sunder). The second will be 134 (+301), and so on. The only time you'll see devastate giving 106 threat is if it cannot apply sunder (e.g. if expose armour is on the mob)

Armstrong's Devastate FAQ linked above is excellent, and he was working on a nifty picture to go with it.

 

Grimaldus

Couple Items I thought that could be added.

King's Defender - Items - World of Warcraft

I'm surprised the Sun Eater was on the list but this wasn't. Mind you due to the dodge on Sun Eater it is a more suited weapon in some encounters (e.g. fighting elementals)

Darkmoon Card: Vengeance - Items - World of Warcraft

51 Stamina trinket plus it can proc a damage effect when you get hit. I think it's a pretty nicely balanced tanking item for between the stamina and the additional threat it can generate.

Overall though great job on the thread.

 

◊ Quigon

I'm not sure the King's Defender offers much over the Sun Eater. I wanted to include the best mitigation item for that region of availability - I'm sure most people are aware of both items, but the Sun Eater should provide better mitigation.

Stamina items are hard to figure out where they should go. Perhaps I can make a "top stamina" list or something.

It would be self-defeating to list every single "good" item.

 

Satrina

Just point em here: Berg's Tank Gear Rankings (11/16/2007 - wow 2.3) - TheorySpot

Ther ranking is based on TankPoints which isn't anywhere near perfect, but it does note top stamina items in each slot and iis a pretty comprehensive list of gear.

 

Xav

Magtheridon's Lair trash probably crits you at 490 defense too, I think their weapon skill/level is all fubar'd. This has come up in discussion before actually, the Magtheridon's Lair trash seeming to be 'super-mobs'. I'm not sure if they've been further nerfed in regards to how hard they are to land hits on and such, though.

 

Dynalisia

Amazing guide Quigon, thanks for putting the work in.

That said, I'm normally a dps warrior myself and I ran into a little nag yesterday with Reliquary that you could consider adding to your guide. I don't normally tank him, so I had completely forgotten about properly dealing with my rage in order to not get creamed by soul screams in phase 3. The irony here was that I had just checked this guide a few minutes earlier to make sure I had everything ready to tank it and there was no mention of soul scream

 

Karohn

This guide has been helpful to me as I'm currently leveling up to hopefully be a MT one day

A little 2 Cents about being crit. One thing I'm sure everyone already knows but I'm gonnna throw it out there anyways; make sure your "Sit" is not bound to any key. You don't need it and if you hit it in the middle of a fight (sit down or not) you will be crit no matter how high your defense is, and accidental key hits always happen at the worst possible time.

 

Satrina

I've never had a Hellfire Warder crit me, but they are level 72 and crush level 70 raid tanks. Normally a 72 would have only 360 weapon skill against the tank's level maximum 350 defense. These seem to have increased weapon skill over what their level would normally indicate, letting them hit the 15 minimum difference between attacker's weapon skill and target's level maximum defense, giving them crushing blows.

Edit: Good catch Karohn. Many tank deaths due to crits (and subsequent cries of ZOMG CRIT AT 5 BILLION DEFENSE) are caused by that alone.

 

• Jamor

I have a very specific question, and although it's slightly off-topic from the guide, I wanted to put it in here, because others may find themselves in a similar situation.

Ultimately my question is this: What effect does the literal DPS of a weapon, as well as the weapon speed equate to from a threat perspective?

I know that's a somewhat loaded question, but her is how I came about asking it.


I am a human, and I have all 3 T5 and T6 tanking weapons at my disposal. I use 3 available gear setups. 1) Avoidance 2) Standard (favors stam and armor) and 3) Threat.

I haven't had to use the theat set too much, as my standard set seems be allow me to take enough damage and generate enough threat not to have to worry about it. But I wanted to take one of my weapons and put executioner on it for some threat testing. Currently I am debating about which weapon to put the enchant on. The two options are the Brutalizer or The Mallet of the Tides.

For most, the brutalizer would be the obvious choice, but for humans, that's not the case. Because of our racial, we get 8 expertise out of the mallet vs. 5 for brutalizer.

So back to my original question -- How much does the extra 3.5 DPS and .1 speed differance matter for threat? Does it equate to almost the 1% threat that the extra 3 expertise gives? (I go from -5.5% to -6.25%) -- which weapon gets executioner 100.3 DPS / 1.6 speed / 5 expertise or 96.8 DPS 1.7 speed / 8 expertise ??

 

Reliknom

I'd say go with mallet, the -0,75% on parry is worth far more, than the little +DPS of The Brutalizer. Weapon damage only effects "white threat" and devastate - and this latter only a liitle. BTW Anetheron's sword would be as good in the threat gear of a human warrior as Supremus's axe because of our imba racial. And the sword gives a nice armor boost too.

I have a question of my own: in a T6 caliber threat gear, is it worth getting the 4 piece bonus for +10% shield slam damage? If yes, which piece should I leave out? 4/5 T6 + Teron's gloves comes to mind, but I'm loathe to exchange my helm from Illidan.

P.S. Thanks for the detailed answer on Praetorian's Legguards. I think I'll have to get the T6 pants now.

"Morituri Nolumus Mori!"

 

Karohn

Even though the DPS on the Mallet is lower, it has a higher average damage per swing and your Devastates will hit harder with it due to the higher top end.

I'd say the Mallet will generate more threat than the Brutalizer.

 

• Jamor

yeah, I use the Anetheron sword (The Unbreakable Will) most of the time. Once they changed the human racial, I haven't used the brutalizer at all.