*) I don't really know there is a difference between a parried attack and a missed one regarding rage cost.
A missed white hit will not generate rage, a parried one will. Not sure about styles, actually, I think a missed one there will subtract the entire cost, but a parried one only a fraction. But that difference is entirely neglectable when you're taking a serious beating anyway. In which parry-reduction will pay in survival, too.. still, I'd hoped I could just eliminate parry as well as misses with endgame gear, but Blizzard didn't quite think like that. Shame they didn't itemize some pieces with hit rating in addition to the other stats. Especially the cloak and necklace look pretty pale aside from a good stamina value.
Last edited by Amorpheus : 05/06/08 at 7:04 PM.
"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted. "So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know." "And what is that?" asked the man in black. "I'm not left-handed."
A missed white hit will not generate rage, a parried one will.
Perhaps it is just the wording, but am I missing something on this? 'If there is no contact, there is no rage gain' was my understanding. If this is wrong, care to elaborate?
Perhaps it is just the wording, but am I missing something on this? 'If there is no contact, there is no rage gain' was my understanding. If this is wrong, care to elaborate?
My understanding of parrying is that you block their attack with your weapon. This is why the next attack comes faster when a mob parries you, they are 'following through' with their parry of your attack and hitting you. So there is contact.
Originally Posted by JamesVZ
Yeah, I guess if you don't consider pure happiness a flavor, Hitler.
My understanding of parrying is that you block their attack with your weapon. This is why the next attack comes faster when a mob parries you, they are 'following through' with their parry of your attack and hitting you. So there is contact.
My mistake- I was interpreting an outgoing attack, which obviously made no sense when you look at it.
I meant outgoing attacks. If 4 ER gives you the same percentage of less parry as 4 HR gives you less miss then they are theoretically equal threat wise point by point. But, if you missing a special costs you all the rage for that special but getting parried only makes you lose a fraction of the skill cost then getting parried would mean better rage efficiency in some way.
Of course, the boss parrying is worse than him getting missed becuase of the parry haste but for the argument that "The new gear is bad because I don't get hit capped easily" is rubbish because you instead get expertise capped which would net the same gains threat wise. For taunting fights, just switch gear.
I did mean it that way when I posted it, but thinking about it I'm unsure. I knew there was something about rage and parry that was changed very early, and just found it in the 1.3 patch notes: Fixed a bug where rage was not being generated when normal melee attacks were parried, dodged, and blocked.
"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted. "So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know." "And what is that?" asked the man in black. "I'm not left-handed."
Commendation + Moroes is great, it's what I use. You don't need threat gear for Brutallus assuming you know how to play! You can easily swap all that hit rating/threat gear for better "tank" gear.
Could you elaborate on that comment for me. I was under the same impression and when we did Brutallus the last time I used my full avoidance gear and a mage pulled aggro. After the wipe I switched back to threat gear: Pepe Cloak, EOS neck, Teron gloves and Supremus axe. I use a simple /chaincast makro for Brutallus: Shield Slam, devestate, devestate and a revenge. The makro also contains a /cast HS line since Brutallus provides endless rage. Was it just bad luck? My guild is very caster oriented and they provide the majority of the DPS. Could this problem be explained by the fact that mages have a worse innate threat reduction and in this case I should focus more on threat gear?
Originally Posted by Reliknom
T6 gear with 15 sta gems in all sockets worked fine for me, until Twins at least. I used the Teron gloves for the first three bosses and T6 for Twins (Alythess first strat). Haven't settled on gear for M'uru yet, will have to see P2 before that.
I do intend, however, to regem all my new items for avoidance once the gem vendor becomes available on our server. (I wouldn't take six red gems away from DPS and healers.)
On hit rating: if you're not the first tank on Kalec you won't need too much hit or other threat stats. For Brutallus, avoidance trumps threat stats, including hit. Felmyst favors high stamina (and armor) with clicky trinkets (or commendation) and threat stats. Badge necklace and Pepe's are both good for her, but you should certainly look into upgrading to the sunwell neck and cloak. Gear for the Twins depends on your kill order.
As far as I see it, the abundance of expertise compensates the loss of hit rating, at least for the first items. You will miss more, but the bosses parry less. For trash though, you might want to wear old items with hit rating, complemented maybe by the shard of contempt (or later the trinket from M'uru).
Edit - And to answer the question before me: don't worry too much, if you have T6 quality gear, you are ready to tank in sunwell, either gemmed for stamina or for avoidance.
Could you explain why you have decided on switching to avoidance sockets. We have 2 stamina tanks in my guild and myself as an avoidance tank. I always tried to get the socket bonuses so socketing for avoidance seemed the best way to go. I had huge problems on Kalec since I am the first tank who tanks the demon and I also had to equip threat gear for Brutallus as mentioned above. I never had threat problems in BT or hyjal. So far we only have 2 bosses down in SW and I'm wondering if I will be able to remain an avoidance tank or if I will have to change to stamina.
Could you elaborate on that comment for me. I was under the same impression and when we did Brutallus the last time I used my full avoidance gear and a mage pulled aggro. After the wipe I switched back to threat gear: Pepe Cloak, EOS neck, Teron gloves and Supremus axe. I use a simple /chaincast makro for Brutallus: Shield Slam, devestate, devestate and a revenge. The makro also contains a /cast HS line since Brutallus provides endless rage. Was it just bad luck? My guild is very caster oriented and they provide the majority of the DPS. Could this problem be explained by the fact that mages have a worse innate threat reduction and in this case I should focus more on threat gear?
It's difficult to answer that kind of question properly without WWS to look at, but I would certainly question your use of a macro for tanking. Is it just one button you have, with a random cast sequence for each ability? If that's the case, I would suspect that's where your problem is.
Well the cast sequence is not random at all. It's essentially just making things easier. The makro keeps Shield Slam on cooldown with 2 devestate and 1 revenge. 3 GCD = 4,5 + the GCD from shield slam is just 6 seconds. I loose time due to connection lag but that should not be too much threat loss. It would be less effective to do a shield slam and 2 devestate rotation without the revenge because I would be stuck with ~1,2-1,3 seconds will the cooldown of shield slam would be ready. The /cast HS part is just to ensure that HS is used constantly since in that fight you really never run out of rage. For wws, I can't say anythign about that at this point wws has been buggy the last few days and we are still waiting for the last combatlogs to be uploaded. But I could imagine that if I used less threat equip wws would only confirm more parries etc.
According to a few sites I've visited Rage to threat ratio is 5 threat for every 1 rage where the combat log registers "you gain X rage".
Can we add this fact to the OP?
This was my understanding as well, so imp blood rage generates 26 rage, or 130 * 1.495 = 194 threat, which is pretty decent. I always shoot -> bloodrage when I pull, it's very nice for any multi-mob encounter. Just remember that the threat is divided among the targets in combat, like healing agro.
Okay, wasn't sure if this was the right place to ask my question, if this is the wrong place please correct me. I'm slightly confused over the difference in threat between sunder armor and devastate. So threat numbers go: Sunder Armor 301, Devastate 101. Now is it better for initial threat to throw Sunder armor up, or devastate as it adds damage?
I understand the more sunders up the more devastate does, and sunder armor itself does no damage, but it seems devastate is more efficient after all 5 sunders are actually up? I have read through the forums and I see some people have sunder armor in their rotation while others say devastate.
For a moment just ignore Shield slam and Revenge in the rotation, for the first 5 hits which is actually provides more threat, Sunder armor or Devastate? Everyone I talk to says they use Devastate, but does the added damage from it really make that difference up between the two? I just looking to get the most threat from the beginning of the pull, or does this not make a difference at all?
I having some trouble keeping up 1000+ tps, and it just seems its possibly just my rotation, or even the fact that going from 2pc t4/2pc t5, to now 4pc t6 I have lost a lot of Block value, which is what I used to base my set on, where I was getting 1200+ shield slams I am now getting lowered to 700+ shield slams, and I'm just at a loss for what I am doing wrong. I'm sitting slightly over the expertise cap, and have 70 hit, and about 250ish block value, which I'm thinking is a bit low for what I'm used to.
Here's a link to my Warcrafter sandbox, the Wow Armory doesn't have me showing my Tank gear.
This was my understanding as well, so imp blood rage generates 26 rage, or 130 * 1.495 = 194 threat, which is pretty decent. I always shoot -> bloodrage when I pull, it's very nice for any multi-mob encounter. Just remember that the threat is divided among the targets in combat, like healing agro.
Rage gains don't get stance modifiers if I recall correctly.
___________
Macros may work on Brutallus because you have so much incoming rage, but I usually shy away from anything that goes beyond 2-3 abilities at once (/startattack being one of those abilities). A multi-step threat generation macro may be simplifying things, but it also removes a good deal of your control - especially in a cast sequence. What if revenge hasn't proc'ed because you've dodged/missed every attack for the last 7 seconds? Suddenly your shield slam and devastate is at the mercy of you getting a block or parry.
Macros worked a lot better in WoW 1.0 when you could set up a chain of abilities and they followed a set order (e.g. you could /shieldslam, /revenge, /sunder armor, in that priority order whenever their cooldown was up). One-button tanking is a thing of the past.
Despite reading the Azgalor parse that accompanies the parry mechanics, I'm unable to get it to match up. Does anyone have a parse that proves Quigon's parry mechanics, namely. My understanding of the mechanic is clear (see my example below), but I'm wondering if anybody has a legit parse that proves it.
For example, Morogrim's attack speed is 2.0. Mine is 1.6 for the example.
0m:01s:50 - Morogrim hits Marathon for 4000.
0m:02s:00 - Marathon hits Morogrim for 428.
0m:03s:50 - Morogrim hits Marathon for 4500.
0m:03s:60 - Marathon misses Morogrim.
0m:05s:20 - Marathon attacks. Morogrim parries.
0m:05s:50 - (Here is where Morogrim would have attacked without the parry, .3s after Marathon's parry. Because .3s later is 15% of Morogrim's attack speed, his attack actually happens at the same time)
0m:05s:50 - Morogrim hits Marathon for 4250.
0m:06s:80 - Marathon attacks. Morogrim parries.
(Since Morogrim's next swing should happen at 7.5s into the fight, and Marathon caused a parry at 6.8s into the fight, Morogrim's swing would have happened .7s later, or 35% of his weapon speed later. Therefore, Morogrim attacks in 20% of his weapon speed later, or in .4s, not .7s)
0m:07s:20 - Morogrim hits Marathon for 4400. (and Morogrim's swing timer is reset to 2.0s again)
0m:07s:50 - (Here is where Morogrim would have attacked [2 seconds after his last attack] had no parries occurred)
0m:08s:40 - Marathon attacks. Morogrim dodges.
0m:09s:20 - Morogrim attacks. Marathon dodges.
Okay, wasn't sure if this was the right place to ask my question, if this is the wrong place please correct me. I'm slightly confused over the difference in threat between sunder armor and devastate. So threat numbers go: Sunder Armor 301, Devastate 101. Now is it better for initial threat to throw Sunder armor up, or devastate as it adds damage?
When you use devastate, you get the devastate threat plus sunder threat if you don't have a 5 stack up yet. There is absolutely no reason to ever use sunder armor on something you're autoattacking. The only reason to ever use sunder armor in place of devastate is if you're using it as a part of a focus or mouseover macro to build threat on a CC'd target.
The only reason to ever use sunder armor in place of devastate is if you're using it as a part of a focus or mouseover macro to build threat on a CC'd target.
I don't think there's a reason to use sunder armor even then.
If you think about it, sheep/pigs/turtles do not go after your healers immediately when they break, they go after whoever had aggro initially when they were sheeped (usually it's me and I've only got bloodrage or one thunderclap's worth of threat on them). That would indicate that anything you're doing to generate threat while they are CC'd generates zero threat.
You're welcome to test it and prove me wrong, but I'd be very surprised if sundering a sheep actually generated any threat at all.
Well the cast sequence is not random at all. It's essentially just making things easier. The makro keeps Shield Slam on cooldown with 2 devestate and 1 revenge. 3 GCD = 4,5 + the GCD from shield slam is just 6 seconds. I loose time due to connection lag but that should not be too much threat loss. It would be less effective to do a shield slam and 2 devestate rotation without the revenge because I would be stuck with ~1,2-1,3 seconds will the cooldown of shield slam would be ready. The /cast HS part is just to ensure that HS is used constantly since in that fight you really never run out of rage. For wws, I can't say anythign about that at this point wws has been buggy the last few days and we are still waiting for the last combatlogs to be uploaded. But I could imagine that if I used less threat equip wws would only confirm more parries etc.
Just because you have infinite rage doesn't mean you can't lose aggro -- If you are wearing avoidance gear on Brut, you probably don't have much +hit, and have less expertise than normal (especially if you don't have boots and belt for T6). So you are still at the mercy of the RNG, to some extent. If the mage was getting huge crits, and you were getting a lot of misses, dodges, parries, etc.... you can still lose aggro. Same for your other tank, if they are not generating enough threat and put you behind, then you take over aggro from them, it would show you losing aggro, but it's quite your fault. The additional avoidance I have picked up in SW has allowed me to add in some threat pieces without sacrificing avoidance. For example, I swapped the badge cloak out for Pepe's -- and I use the mother sword instead of unbreakable will on Brut now. I am able to do that because I picked up bracers, belt, boots, and the felmyst gloves **
Also, your group config is going to be a factor in your threat generation. For example, I usually don't give myself WF for the fight, but I am in a group with a BM hunter, a shaman for SoE and GoA and a Feral druid. All of which is going to give me extra theat. This week we ran two enhance shaman and I had WF and BS -- again, a group config that is pretty nice for my threat.
** Every other boss has been a huge dud for tanking drops. No legs, no sword, no shield, no cloak or shoulders
Originally Posted by Fellwraith
I don't think there's a reason to use sunder armor even then.
If you think about it, sheep/pigs/turtles do not go after your healers immediately when they break, they go after whoever had aggro initially when they were sheeped (usually it's me and I've only got bloodrage or one thunderclap's worth of threat on them). That would indicate that anything you're doing to generate threat while they are CC'd generates zero threat.
You're welcome to test it and prove me wrong, but I'd be very surprised if sundering a sheep actually generated any threat at all.
Hi sorry to interrupt but I was looking over your guide's gear section and didn't see Umbral Shiv mentioned as a tanking item. I recently got this dagger from ZA after our rogue didn't want it. Now everyone in my guild is laughing at me using it to tank. The SSC mace never dropped for me and now that we are 3/5 in MH the sword probably won't either. This daggers got a ton of hit after I put in 2x +10 hit gems and using it as my threat wep to get close to hit cap. Am I wrong to use this thing? Its got good stam and agil for avoidance. The plus hit and executioner makes it an okay threat weapon right?
Daggers are normalised at 1.8 speed, other one hand weapon types are normalised at 2.4 speed so your Devastates will put out a fair chunk less threat with a dagger than with say a sword of equal dps and speed. Its a nice weapon for stacking stamina into for jobs like Saber Lash tanking on Mother but i wouldn't use it as a mainstay.
To reach back to the shield discussion i haven't seen anyone mention the [Brutal Gladiator's Shield Wall] despite it having the highest passive armour of all of the shields and quite a large chunk of stamina too. Admittedly it trades in the extra useful stats of, say, the Swordbreaker's for resilience but when you're trying to soak those big bad hits there doesn't seem to be much better. Its just a shame that the rating requirement for it is painfully high for a protection warrior.
Stats below if the wowhead link goes sour:
Brutal Gladiator's Shield Wall
Binds when picked up
Off Hand Shield
6662 Armor
185 Block
+67 Stamina
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 31 (0.79% @ L70).
Much like [Vengeful Gladiator's Shield Wall], arguably the current #3 shield, it is very good. It will undebatably be at least the #3 shield after S4 is announced. I don't think its good enough to knock off the competiton though
vs [Sword Breaker's Bulwark] w/stam gems
+203 AC (~0.6%)
+3 stam
-20 defense rating
-16 shield block rating
-40 shield block value
On Brutallus: a lot of tanks have tanked him in avoidance gear and if your damage dealers watch their threat (on Omen for example) they shouldn't pull agro on him and still put out the necessary DPS. Also tanking any threat sensitive situation with a one button macro is highly questionable. Such a macro will never get you as much threat as knowing which skills to use in which order, and doing just that. As an orc warrior, I think you should always use the supremus axe; the gloves from teron our powerful enough both avoidance and threat-wise to be used for Brutallus. If threat remains a problem, you could perhaps try the new badge belt and legs to get more expertise, those are really great items even compared to BT loot. Going with a feral druid first tank is also a threat gain, as is having more hunters in your raid boosting tank threat by missdirecting on every cooldown.
On my (and many tanks before me, I did not decide this on my own) choice of gemming for avoidance, gear before sunwell had crappy socket bonuses for one, 15 stamina gems are a cheap way to get a lot of stamina for another, also progression raiding usually favors effective health over avoidance. As we realized how poerful avoidance has become in T6 gear, many tanks either collected a second set and gemmed (enchanted) it for avoidance, or just regemmed their main tanking gear. I didn't do either, mainly because we always seem to have a shaman needing T6 pieces and them being able to retalent into high-end gear is more efficient then me regemming while any ebcounter is easily beaten with my old gear.
Sunwell loot, however has stamina socket bonuses and a ton of avoidance, thus gemming for avoidance is a powerful choice even with the sunwell radiance buff on the mobs. Damage done by the bosses is also in line with BT/Hyjal, so you do not really need more stamina, but as the aforementioned buff cutes back on avoidance levels, you sure can use more of that.
What I have decided on, after some consideration, was to use 15 sta gems in all blue , 10 dodge gems in all red and +5 def +7 sta green gems in all yelow sockets. Every purple gem seems to be much weaker that 15 sta or 10 dodge; and 10 def is only marginally better than the hybrid green gem.
What I have decided on, after some consideration, was to use 15 sta gems in all blue , 10 dodge gems in all red and +5 def +7 sta green gems in all yelow sockets. Every purple gem seems to be much weaker that 15 sta or 10 dodge; and 10 def is only marginally better than the hybrid green gem.
The [Stalwart Fire Opal] from Sethekk halls is also a good option for yellow sockets, especially if you're trying to put a yellow gem into an avoidance piece for the meta bonus.
Despite reading the Azgalor parse that accompanies the parry mechanics, I'm unable to get it to match up. Does anyone have a parse that proves Quigon's parry mechanics, namely. My understanding of the mechanic is clear (see my example below), but I'm wondering if anybody has a legit parse that proves it.
05/06/08, 6:58 PM
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