Did BT with max hit and 58 expertise (-14.5% dodge/parry), didn't notice a single parry. I used the set until Bloodboil.

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Bulwark Proc looks like a Fel Barrier/Skullflame shield. I'd assume since it doesn't knock off the Hyjal ring's buff it wouldn't do the same to a scroll.

How good is a T5 helm socketed with avoidance compared to a Faceplate of the Impenetrable or T2 Engineering Goggles (I have none of the 3 as of yet)?

I've been toying around with Rawr after your post and I really love it (version 14.1 is out btw if anyone missed it), but I really can't seem to find a value for Mitigation Scale that I'm happy with.

I know the whole point of the program is to be able to create gear sets that are tailored to a specific goal, but what do you guys think are some sensible values for the Threat Scale and Mitigation scale? How much for an all round tanking set? How much for a stamina set? How much for an avoidance (i.e. brutallus) set? How much for a threat set?

I'm not really looking for exact values, just some points of comparison from the more experienced folks.

Speaking of "not sure if you guys know this":

There is quest called "Open for Business" that rewards a blood berry elixer, which is basically an Elixir of Mastery (+15 to all stats). But, instead of acting like an elixir, it works like a flask in SWP -- 2 hours, lasts through death. Pretty nice option for farm status...or for normal use when used with an elixir of fortitude.

For Threat Scale, I've been using 10 to 20 for MT situations on new content. For my threat set, I use between 50 and 100, but you have to be careful to not make "dumb" decisions based solely on Rawr's recommendations. For example with my threat set, the top 6 rings with a threat scale of 100 are pure dps rings. I'm not going to give up both ring slots for the highest threat rings for most situations. Also with a high threat scale weapon rankings will favor dps style weapons a lot.

For Mitigation Scale, which is really avoidance and mitigation (including block and block value), I use the default of 3750 for most situations. If I need to reach a certain hp number and really just want to stack as much stamina and armor as possible, I'll move the Mitigation Scale down to 2500. I haven't found a good number I like for all/most gear slots for my avoidance set.

I'd love to hear any feedback you have. I plan to add a better way to set the scaling factors as well as give good default settings for situations (MT, threat set, avoidance set, all round tanking set, and so on).

I'm the 16.5k health tank (unbuffed), so I wasn't planning to gem it for avoidance. I just wasn't sure if the 69 health and 98 armor would trump the 1.69 avoidance, so I'm glad I asked.

The Suneater still has more avoidance and as a human probably isn't that bad even in Sunwell, though you're losing a bit of stamina. Much of the BT offset gear has loads of hit on it so you could mix and match if you were going for threat, but that's probably not an issue on most fights.

Looking at Cleaver of the Unforgiving v. Unbreakable Will v. Brutalizer in Rawr:

Cleaver of the Unforgiving Socketed +10 Def. Rating:

429.70 Mitigation Rating
971.89 Survival Rating (HP rating)

Unbreakable Will:

554.04 Mitigation Rating
1458.55 Survival Rating

Brutalizer:

354.65 Mitigation Rating
971.89 Survival Rating

I had been stuck with Kings Defender for god knows how long and was running ZA a bunch for the Cleaver. This week the Brutalizer finally dropped and I've abandoned hope for getting the Cleaver. Brutalizer is the best BT/MH Threat tanking weapon where the Unbreakable will offers the extra armor minus the expertise rating from the Brutalizer making it the best Avoidance/Mitigation weapon in BT/MH in my opinion.

Once you reach the expertise "soft cap" of 23, and you have removed dodge from a raid bosses combat table, what is the most effective strategy to pursue with regard to maximizing threat? The way I see it, is you can begin to go for more +hit or continue to grab +expertise. Now adding the expertise also includes the added benefit of preventing more dmg (removing parries) to yourself, but I would like to focus on the +threat idea.

The way I see the math (taken from Quigon's guide)

15.7692 hit rating = 1% hit chance
3.9423 expertise rating = 1 expertise = 0.25% reduced change to dodge and parry
or
15.7692 expertise rating = reduced chance to dodge AND parry by 1%

Now remember i specified that we already removed dodge being at 23 expertise so we are only removing parry at this point. So if the above math is correct, then both hit and expertise add the same amount of chance to hit a boss. Which makes them equal...or does it?

I think there is one more thing we haven't taken into account. Item stats/points. Does say +20 hit take up the same amount of item points that +20 expertise would? If so then +expertise is always better, because you gain the same amount of threat, but also prevent parries. However, I'm unsure this is the case, so can anyone provide any feedback on this?

As always, thanks for the help!

As far as I know all "ratings" have the same value in item budget as 1 stat point (STR/DEX/INT etc) with STA being an exception. Other stats like Armor Pen, Block value, Spell damage, Healing and others I might be forgetting are treated differently but they are not "ratings".

Don't forget the human racial which grants you 5 expertise when wielding a sword, which almost weighs up against the expertise gained from The Brutalizer. So it really comes down to what you prefer:

0.33 expertise vs. 308 armor

I think the normal MrT gun is worthly to be mentioned under the threat section

It has like 10 hit/expertise rating and 16 stamina.

Frmorrison I believe is talking about Nightstrike.

It certainly is worth discussion, as 10 Expertise and 10 Hit are great aggro stats, and the ranged slot doesn't get too much love for tanking.

Personally I use it for only my max threat set, favoring Vengeful Gladiator's War Edge for most occasions. I could be entirely out of my mind though. The only gain is 8 Stam (and some Resilience) for worse aggro stats. Quigon does mention the Vengeful Gladiator's Longbow which is very similar (-1 Crit, +4 AP) but carries a rating requirement (edit: and a much higher point cost).

I may have been blinded by the Epic > Blue, since I would almost always ditch 8 Stam for Expertise/Hit.

Edit again: I'm too dumb to notice it says "Ranged Attack Power" on the Longbow until it was pointed out.

I use Nightshrike in my threat set, or whenever I feel like I need a touch more hit/expertise, but for "serious" stuff, I switch over to the Teron gun, of course.

I think there's three main tanking ranged slot items:

[Nightstrike]
[Gyro-Balanced Khorium Destroyer] (Still great to carry around because of the socket)
[Rifle of the Stoic Guardian]

With these three, you're set!

I think I need to get that ranged weapon -- quite nice really. My "threat" weapon is just Gyro socketed with Stam

This is a basic question, but is the 10% physical mitigation of defensive stance multiplicative with armor like it is with the talent for spell reduction? Or does it add on top of your armor? I don't recall having seen that specifically posted anywhere, so I just wanted to double check.

I feel that the Legionkiller has a place in the ranged slot, it's got excellent stam and a nice mix of threat/armor with the agi.

The Legionkiller is an excellent bow of course too, with .70 dodge and stam, but for pure stam/dodge the Teron gun beats it.

Meanwhile, .64 crit is nice, but I think hit/expertise overshadow it.

So, mine is banked, since normally in my threat kit (high expertise, max hit, 797 block value), I need the Nightstrike to get hit capped, heh.

This is just a glaring itemization hole that we've been shoving stuff in and trying to make it fit since TBC came out. Nightstrike screams rogue weapon, it just happens to have decent stats for prot threat on it. Our ranged weapons were an afterthought.

Before the Engy gun came out, we didn't have any ranged weapons meant for prot (threat or mitigation): You had the Doomwalker gun or ilvl 115+ AH Green of Stamina. The Doomwalker gun was clearly meant for hunters, but tanks could shove stam in the 2 sockets and it was a decent weapon. Then, the engy gun came out, and that was the best option until Teron. [The Boomstick] wasn't bad, but I only ever used it when I was struggling to stay def capped on Hydross. Still waiting on a decent threat ranged weapon....

[Blade of Life's Inevitability] with a rigid lion's eye is also a very good threat weapon. It's a trash drop, not terribly common, and it should go to your rogue's first, but it's probably the highest threat ranged weapon you can get.

It is multiplicative.

Armor mitigation: 90%
Defense mitigation: 10%
Unmitigated hit: 10,000

(0.90*10,000)*0.10 = 900
(0.10*10,000)*0.90 = 900

And multiplication is associative.

Haste does not increase the GCD for melee correct?