Decrease? Nope, would be interesting if it did.

1 second Devastates would be nice to be able to add another in the rotation.

Only problem is you'd have to loose another stat (obviously) to gain the benefit of it.

I'd think the main problem with a 1 second GCD for a warrior would be surgery costs for carpel tunnel.

Haste and Bloodlust apparently don't affect the GCD at all.

Not like I don't spam my keys enough already :P

I beyond loosing real tanking stats as a downfall, I don't know if you would gen. enough rage to keep up a rotation like that.

I have a question about the math used to calculate the benefits of the Executioner enchant for tanking. I'm sure this has been hashed out in detail before, but I could not find the calculations in this thread outside of the initial post.

I'm not sure how exactly the threat calculator works, I'm just going off some back-of-the envelope calculations. If the enchant provides a 6% increase in DPS while active, and is up 25% of the time, then the average increase in damage is less than 2%. That would imply that the increase in threat is closer to 2% than 6%, reducing the TPS bonus to 23.

It seems to me that the initial calculations for Executioner neglected to account for it only being up 25% of the time. Was that taken into account somewhere that isn't immediately obvious?

Edit:

Using the threat spreadsheet, I found the following results. I used the default values in the spreadsheet except where otherwise specified.

First, I couldn't find anywhere in the spreadsheet to input armor penetration. I therefore manually calculated that a typical boss with 7600 base armor and full -armor raid debuffs has 3590 effective armor and 23% DR. A boss with an additional 840 armor removed has only 18% DR from armor. I entered these into the spreadsheet and got the following TPS numbers for the maximum TPS rotation listed:

23% mitigation: 865 TPS
18% mitigation: 905 TPS

I then calculated the effects of mongoose. I added 32 haste rating to account for the 2% haste part of the mongoose proc. I attempted to add 120 agility, but this produce only half of a percent increase in "Crit" under "Buffed Stats". I instead manually added 3.63% crit to the base stats to account for the 120 agi from Mongoose and got the following stats:

23% mitig, +3.6% crit, +2% haste: 901 TPS

If we assume equal proc rates of 1.4 PPM, then we can just directly compare the TPS numbers. The two enchants are nearly equal in threat in this case. Assuming a proc rate of 1 PPM for Executioner vs 1.4 PPM for Mongoose, as listed in the original post, Mongoose become superior for TPS.

These results suggest that the TPS disparity between Executioner and Mongoose may be much smaller than previously calculated. If so, the dodge provided by Mongoose may outweigh the minor TPS increase in most cases.

- Spell Haste: Spell haste now reduces the global cooldown on spells,
down to a minimum of 1 second. This change does not apply to melee
and ranged abilities.

Normal haste rating just lowers the time between melee/ranged weapon attacks, nothing else.

haha....yep, meant decrease.

yeah, I knew haste was lowering the global for casters, and I thought I read that it wouldn't do anything for melee, but I couldn't remember for sure. What a craptastic stat for tanking.

There's so little hit on the sunwell gear, it would make more sense if the haste rating on things like [Breastplate of Agony's Aversion] and [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade] was hit rating.

65 hit rating total on those two items instead of haste would indeed make me all hot and fuzzy, but I somewhat doubt it's going to happen; they already "reviewed" one tanking item (the gloves from Felmyst), if they wanted to fix the haste problem on tanking gear they probably would have done it already. As it is now, haste for tanking is, as pointed out previously, totally and utterly useless. Let's hope they'll notice.

Has anyone ever done a serious test comparing +2% Threat to gloves vs. +15 Strength? 15 Strength will give you +33 Attack Power, as well as a small boost to shield slam. Since warriors already have such low attack power anyway, is it possible that all of this combined would be >2% dps increase? If +15 Strength gives you a 2% dps increase (actually it doesn't even have to be 2%, probably closer to 1.85% since we get +15% Threat from Defiance), then I guess it would be better.

Anyway I know the immediate response to this is that +2% Threat is going to be superior, but I'm really looking for some solid facts to back it up if anyone can provide.

Thanks

At 1000 tps, 2% threat is a 20 TPS gain.
15 strength is less than 1 block value. It's 36 AP after talents/kings. 36 AP is going to raise your DPS by 2.5. It might raise your max devastate damage by 2 or 3, for another potential 1-2 dps. Even being extremely generous and giving it a 5-6 total DPS gain, 2% threat vastly outpaces it. And that's only at a small amount of threat, 1000.

You're probably doing ~550 dps to pull 1000 TPS while tanking, and 36 AP isn't going to be granting you anywhere near a 10 dps gain.

When you're reaching 1200, 1500, 1700+, 2% threat is just massively ahead of it.

Speaking of hit, what've other people been doing to compensate for the +Hit loss?

Generally since I already carry around 40 slots of equipment + consumables around anyway, I've triple Lionseye'd my [Destroyer Chestguard]. I also keep around [Romulo's Poison Vial], and I seem to be wearing [Band of the Abyssal Lord] more and more.

I also triple lionseyed my Destroyer, been using it for a couple of months now. It's an absolutely amazingly-well itemized piece of tank gear, a pity nothing else is like it. I keep Pendant of Titans for hit, and the band of the abyssal lord. I've also got a lionseye in my Kaz'rogal shield. All that + nightstrike is a hefy amount of +hit I carry around when needed in a threat suit. Also, of course, Pepe's to swap in over Crimson Paragon/whatever.

That's mostly just BT stuff, or for trash clearing, not actually used in Sunwell. (Except swapping in the shield on some boss fights depending on phase)

End goal is to get extra pieces of the T6 Sunwell tokens and put Hit gems in them. Right now I'm using my extra tokens on the DPS versions first, because I want to be a dps king on offdays. But that'll be nice once it happens.

My threat set (with +hit food buff) is currently +8.24% hit and 42 expertise (10.5%).

I use the following pieces to get that:
Pepe's (+hit)
Pit Lord Neck (+expertise)
Badge Bracers (+expertise)
Teron Gloves (+expertise)
Onslaught Belt (+expertise)
Praetorian's Legs (+Hit)
Onslaught Boots (+expertise)
Abyssal Lord Ring (+hit)
Kaz Shield (gemmed with Lionseye)
Mother Sword (+Hit)

After seeing the ranged weapon from normal MgT -- I really would like to try and find some time to pick that up, as it would complement my set well (I might swap out the badge bracers with T6 if I had that ranged slot).

I only wear the whole set on trash or in BT, as it's just too low in avoidance for Sunwell. I do use the sword frequently in Sunwell however - I have found that it's a nice boost in threat for swapping a single piece (as mentioned earlier, the human bonus helps with that). If I was any other race, I would probably use the brutalizer on all fights. In my mind, the weapon slot is probably the easiest to add threat - similar to a pally tank using a spell damage weapon vs. a tank weapon. For most races the trade-off is expertise vs. 330 armor. For me it's much better threat stats vs. 300 armor, 30ish defense and ~160 HP .

I have found that in Sunwell, I do a lot of small changes to my gear for a touch more threat, or avoidance. For most of T6, I rarely swapped gear (except for mother).

Sorry to intrude on the ongoing discussion, but I've written the following section for my Theorycrafting Think Tank article on rogue DPS and would appreciate it if I could get some input on it straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.

The figure of 100 is based on some very fuzzy math using the Devastate threat equation. As I understand it, Devastate gains 15 bonus threat and 35 bonus damage per Sunder on the target, for a total of 75 threat and 175 damage if there are 5 Sunders. These are increased by the threat modifiers of a warrior in defensive stance with Defiance, 149.5% total. This comes out to roughly 400 (varying some due to crit affecting the bonus damage), which, in a 4-ability cycle, would be roughly 200 TPS, and in a 3-ability cycle, roughly 100 TPS. Then you apply the gain in damage on other abilities due to having 475 additional armor penetration on the boss, and you probably come out to around 100. Does this seem reasonable? (edit: Had initially made a mistake with the logic, which makes my math very very sketchy since there's a big difference between 3- and 4-ability cycles. Whatever.)

Alternatively, does anybody have a link to a post or even a thread where the exact threat impact of having Expose Armor up instead of Sunders might have been calculated? I've seen many allusions to "don't use Expose if your tank is a warrior," but few actual calculations. Granted, it seems to fall into that category of "things that are blindingly obvious and don't need calculations," but I'm not a warrior so I have to ask. :p

Satrina did some math on Tankspot that came to similar conclusions, here. It doesn't seem to take into account what's involved for the rogue to keep up a five-point EA, though; as far as I can tell 100% uptime on EA is assumed.

Supposed leaked WotLK talents

http://urlshort.com/wotlk/site/talentline.php?line=163
Wotlk leaks: WotLK Alpha Official Wiki

There is absolutely no doubt about whether they were leaked or not. The alpha client was accidentally made available, so now we're datamining all of the info from it.

The changes they made to the prot tree are universally good, addressing every single complaint we had and then some.

-We wont be rage starved when tanking content we overgear thanks to stalwart defender giving +2 rage every time we dodge/parry.
-Shield bash and improved revenge now have a place in a real, big-boy tank build - coincidentally, taking up 5 points that can be cannibalized from Cruelty. This gives us more random pvp viability and more general awesomeness.
-Rend might be worthwhile, giving us a dot that we can use for...something.
-We now have a solid aoe threat builder/oh-shit trash button/pvp toy/ that isn't just boring like consecrate.
-Conc blow deals damage now and it scales!? Hurray!
-Devastates and shield slams now have a chance to reset the cooldown on shield slam, meaning we have both a more dynamic rotation than ye olde shield slam/revenge/devastatex2/lather/rinse/repeat.

If this build went live tomorrow, prot warriors would be forming conga lines in the streets and everyone would be joining in. My only concern is that they're going to start polluting our tank gear with strength, which would be a massive step backwards unless they redid the formula for shield block value.

Spell 12807
Name: Improved Disarm
Description: Reduces the cooldown of your Disarm and Shield Break abilities by $/1000;s1 secs and causes the target to take an additional 15% damage while disarmed.
Description2:

Shield Break - Break down the enemy's defenses, disarming any shield they have equipped or reducing the chance the enemy will block by $s3% for $d.

This sounds situational in PVE and I'm wondering if this is meant to be more of a PVP talent? The 15% increase in damage taken plus the reduction of the shield could make burning paladins and shamans easier, but in exchange for an MS warrior, I don't know. It could be a nice way to make Prot. warriors more useful in PVP.

Shield Break is just disarm for shields; it takes away the shield. The value of improved disarm will depend entirely on how many bosses, if any, are disarmable/breakable.

There appears to be AP scaling on the threat of a number of warrior abilities in WotLK (Sunder, Conc. Blow , Shockwave, I would assume others) as well as on some of the DKs Frost spells.
Seeing as DKs will have no use for Block Value, changing the formula and replacing all Block Value with Strength, at least on non-set plate would seem like a sensible solution.

In fact, seeing as Block rating is only really useful for Paladins in gaining uncrushability, if crushing blows are removed then I wonder if we might see block rating and value disappearing from non-set tanking items. I wouldn't be suprised if the Prot pally tree ends up with some AP to Spell damage converstion, meaning you effectively end up with 2 types of non-set plate, tanking plate which has strength to allow threat scaling for all 3 plate tanks, with no points spent on block, and then dps plate to share between the dps specs (the Blood tree appears to be similar to ret in that spell damage offers little benefit, and Unholy has an AP to spell damage conversion talent).
This would leave gems, set items and the odd misc. item to talior it more specifically to a roll.

Firstofall thanks for this thread, the wisdom which lies in it's pages has helped me quite a lot in the recent time.

But now on topic, I'm the MT of a guild who is just approaching t6 levels (killed Archimonde two days ago and three bosses in BT so far). My only concern with t6 instances is the loot, to be specific our tank set. I'm currently wearing the [Battleworn Tuskguard] plus the [Royal Gauntlets of Silvermoon] on my head and glove slot. When I take a look at the two alternatives from the t6 set for these slots I'm a little confused. Is the only purpose of the t6 set to become crush-immune due to immense block rating? Asides from that and the 4-piece bonus I can't find a point where the t6 set really shines over non-set items (that goes for most t6 Items in Hyjal/BT).