Pre-dodge cap: Expertise gives twice as much "chance to hit" as +hit
Between dodge and parry cap: Expertise is slightly better than +hit on fights where parry haste is enabled (most fights)
On fights where you need to taunt, +hit has some added value -- the exact amount of added value is subjective.
@prindle: I'm a healing priest with a tanking alt, too. I just entered SSC/TK with my tank but did not get an item there. I have nearly everything you can get up to there (or can spend the badges for them whenever I want) with the exception of the best ZA-items. We go there with a mix of alts and mains.
Since we have some realy crazy alts who like to build up deadly combinations (owl+2ele+lock+shadow.....) I learned to equip threadwise just after starting to tank kara. I have more thread problems with this alts then with good geared mains since they automaticaly push their thread-wiping-buttons or something, which they have learned in the serious raids.
IF I can get hold on enough rage I dont have thread issues, if they let me get the first hit on the mob or I can taunt. (For both hit helps.) But with my gear I often am rage-starved in heroics and kara (and even the softer hitting bosses in ZA).
I do not use autoblocker - never got it. Yes, you do more dmg with shildslam, but you will get even more rage-starved every time you block. I would never use it on trash. (I'm thinking about buying it for helping my avoidance and not loosing too much thread in encounters where the boss hurts some more)
Expertise and hit will help you much more with thread in the instances you want to do. They help you getting more rage from white-dmg so that you get the possibility to applay ss at least sometimes. If you dont have enough rage to do ss, all your precious sbv will not help you getting any thread at all. And if you miss ss, it does not get better.
A nice item is the blue throwing-dagger from normal Magister Tarrace, even if it is not a trinket. And I like a combo with the new blue trinkets which drop there on heroic-mode. Btw I put executioner on my beloved Blazefury. (For serious bosses I have Kings Defender with mongoose in my bag.)
I do not use autoblocker - never got it. Yes, you do more dmg with shildslam, but you will get even more rage-starved every time you block. I would never use it on trash. (I'm thinking about buying it for helping my avoidance and not loosing too much thread in encounters where the boss hurts some more)
You'll get more threat out of autoblocker then the potentially 1 less rage you'll lose on a blocked attack.
Ok, the less rage while blocking is not my greatest problem with autoblocker. In most situations the only time I can use SS is right with the pull (yes, autoblocker would help me greatly with my inital-aggro). After that I often have long runs of mob-misses and doges with some blocks inbetween. When I'm looking which skill to apply at a given GCD most times I simply dont have enough rage for SS. The only thing to help me there is to buff my whitedmg so I have more rage to spend. I have to be in the position where I can use SS on a regular basis before its helpfull to buff SS. The best way to get there is hit or expertise since it works on every attack I perform.
Autoblocker gets usefull if you have at least enough rage to do the 4-skill-cycle.
Ok, the less rage while blocking is not my greatest problem with autoblocker. In most situations the only time I can use SS is right with the pull (yes, autoblocker would help me greatly with my inital-aggro). After that I often have long runs of mob-misses and doges with some blocks inbetween. When I'm looking which skill to apply at a given GCD most times I simply dont have enough rage for SS. The only thing to help me there is to buff my whitedmg so I have more rage to spend. I have to be in the position where I can use SS on a regular basis before its helpfull to buff SS. The best way to get there is hit or expertise since it works on every attack I perform.
Autoblocker gets usefull if you have at least enough rage to do the 4-skill-cycle.
Not true.
Shieldslam and revenge are the two most efficient TPR abilities you can use. They are also the most efficient threat per cooldown you can use. You should always use them before devastate once you get your 5 stack of sunders established (and you should weave them in while setting up the sunders). If you're rage limited and can't do a standard 4 skill rotation, then you shift to revenge, shieldslam, and only renew sunders with devastate when they're close to running out. That's the best way to maximize your tps.
The biggest mistake I see offtanks and random pug tanks make is that they don't save their rage to keep shieldslam on cooldown. You don't have to be doing something on every cooldown to maximize your tps, what you need to do is use your cooldowns and rage efficiently.
Revange can only be used if one got a block and it is not on CD. If it is usable nobody would consider using something else for gaining thread.
I know that I'm not the biggest tank ever - I'm only 70 since december. But I tried to do what is described on the Guide on the first page of this thread:
[quote]
You have 17 rage: Use shield slam if not on CD, else revenge, else devastate
You have 12(9 talented) rage: Use revenge if not on cooldown (CD), else devastate
You have 7 rage: Use revenge if not on CD, else shield bash
Yes, shield bash. Shield bash is an exceptional aggro talent. It is not worthy to be placed into a perfect 4-cycle rotation, but in low rage and decision making situations, it has a notable place.
Shield bash generates 230 base threat (by comparison shield slam is 307, revenge 201, heroic strike 196, and devastate 101). Each of these abilities also generates damage from the bonus damage of the ability. Shield bash has the lowest bonus damage of these abilities, and is the reason it has the lowest threat per second. However, it is not far behind.
In a situation where you have 7 rage, revenge is on cooldown, you are far better off hitting your shield bash button than waiting even half a second for enough rage to devastate. Time is threat, do not waste it waiting for a big hit, get that big hit on the next global.
[quote]
I dont know if this is the best way, but I dont want to wait 5 or more seconds without doing anything and letting the dps hitting hard.
And even if it would be wise to wait until you have enough rage for SS (that can be longer than its CD and even if you have got the rage you maybe to use revange first, if it just pops up, since its tpr is much better than that of SS) it would help to get more rage so you can use some other skills, too. Btw if you wait until SS is finaly usable and miss it becaus you did not want to use +hit-items all your thread is lost.
Revenge can be used after any avoided/mitigated attack other than miss. So you're only partially right on that part.
After that I often have long runs of mob-misses and doges with some blocks inbetween.
This was the main thing that caught my eye reading through about rage starvation. This had happened to me quite a bit and the best way I've found without trying to alter your playstyle is to alter your gear a bit before hand. Know that either a boss can do and what will help you in the situation. If, for example if you were fighting the dragonhawk or the eagle boss in ZA, think if having a dodge streak will hurt the dps because they are forced to hold back(eagle in this case). And in such a case try to play around with gear that you have and try to find a way to reduce your avoidance a bit for those threat sensitive fights.
As for the autoblocker, I'm not positive you're gonna get a fully blocked attack that will yield such little rage that it's not worth having it on. Making a macro to bind it to shield slam would be a quick way to ensure that it only goes off when you're wanting to get a big hit and not just to mitigate more damage.
Other than that, one of the best ways I've found to counter this was to simply try and get a stacked group yourself. In any threat sensitive fight where I know that dps is going to be at a significant threat advantage then me, I'm always trying to get either a feral druid or atleast a windfury totem. Either of these is a moderate threat boost and should be looked into so long as it doesn't cripple the dps too harshly.
Revenge can be used after any avoided/mitigated attack other than miss. So you're only partially right on that part.
This was the main thing that caught my eye reading through about rage starvation. This had happened to me quite a bit and the best way I've found without trying to alter your playstyle is to alter your gear a bit before hand. Know that either a boss can do and what will help you in the situation. If, for example if you were fighting the dragonhawk or the eagle boss in ZA, think if having a dodge streak will hurt the dps because they are forced to hold back(eagle in this case). And in such a case try to play around with gear that you have and try to find a way to reduce your avoidance a bit for those threat sensitive fights.
As for the autoblocker, I'm not positive you're gonna get a fully blocked attack that will yield such little rage that it's not worth having it on. Making a macro to bind it to shield slam would be a quick way to ensure that it only goes off when you're wanting to get a big hit and not just to mitigate more damage.
Other than that, one of the best ways I've found to counter this was to simply try and get a stacked group yourself. In any threat sensitive fight where I know that dps is going to be at a significant threat advantage then me, I'm always trying to get either a feral druid or atleast a windfury totem. Either of these is a moderate threat boost and should be looked into so long as it doesn't cripple the dps too harshly.
Liriel, seems we're in kind of the same situation. My gear isn't that good but still for Kara and ZA I swap ALOT of dps items (or more hit/block oriented gear). E.g. badge dps legs, badge dps ring, etc. I'm not sure about your playstyle but swapping out enough items is ofc only possible if you have enough defense (and stay above 490 or 485 for heroics - I sit at 510 with non-threat gear).
As I was pointed to the first page for threat trinket selection, I've come to the conclusion my best aggro trinkets are the Autoblocker and the Shard of Contempt. I was already pretty sure about the Autoblocker cause removing it during prior testing (way back I must admit) resulted in a quite noticable TPS drop. I'll be using Shard instead of a hit trinket to eliminate more parry, and will try to get some other hitgear in to get as near to the 140+ I'm aiming for
Btw I don't know how you're tanking Kara, but first thing I usually do when I seem to outgear the instance is not TCing and/or demo shouting, which is usually not enough, so I don't use SB as well (don't have T5 or anything to worry about). If that's not enough, I'm swapping to threat/dps gear. Also, using SS over devastate might be best for single target tanking TPR-whise, often you will tank more than one target in which I usually try to use little rage by revenge/deva tab spamming, unless I'm comfortable with incoming rage.
That link has some information on Deathfrost/TClap not stacking (although stuff on the WoW forums is rarely definitive). Basically, 3/3 TClap > Deathfrost > 0/3 TClap. The Deathfrost debuff only stays on because of the castspeed/movement speed component (rather than it stacking with TClap).
For threat weapon enchants, it's probably still going to be: Executioner -> Deathfrost -> Mongoose, correct?
I could see Deathfrost being slightly better in some situations (super high armor targets), but Executioner's armor penetration I think should scale way better, and once you have proc uptime on Exec, you should be able to deal a bit more than 150 damage.
The difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning. - Mark Twain
For threat weapon enchants, it's probably still going to be: Executioner -> Deathfrost -> Mongoose, correct?
I could see Deathfrost being slightly better in some situations (super high armor targets), but Executioner's armor penetration I think should scale way better, and once you have proc uptime on Exec, you should be able to deal a bit more than 150 damage.
Once we move into Lichking, that may not be the case. It really depends on how much they scale up mob armor values as we level. Unless they reduce the effectiveness of deathfrost and mongoose as we level, like they did with crusader, they'll be better at 80.
It will be interesting to see how deathfrost interacts with abilities like thunderclap, misery, COE, and thorns/fireshield. I understand the attack speed penalties don't stack, but it's still giving you ~224 threat (150*1.3*1.15) each time it procs. Does it benefit from debuffs (increasing the effective damage to 172)? Can it proc off of a thunderclap? Is each mob hit by thunderclap checked independently or do they all get hit if it procs? What about passive damaging spells like holy shield, thorns, darkmoon cards or fireshield? Does it have to be a "cast" damaging spell in order to proc?
From what I saw screwin around with it in BT, it didn't scale with CoE/misery. I'll try to run a few more focused tests today to confirm that though. Heard from the other warrior who also put deathfrost on his shard of azzinoth that it might have procced off thunderclap but only hit one target so I'm assuming it was a white hit about the same time. I've had back to back procs so it's probably on a ppm system with no internal CD.
Earlier today an issue came up when Felstrength legplates dropped.
The chance for you to hit the boss, as stated in the first post of the thread, is decided by one die that is being rolled a single time. What this does as is stated by the first post is making hit and expertise stack. Hit lowers the chance for your attacks to get missed, expertise lowers the chance for your attacks to get parried or dodge, so you need both for the die to get the highest chance to hit the boss.
The issue is this: With the itemization in Sunwell being heavily favoring expertise, there are few or none items with actual hit on them. I have read through this thread and seen a lot of posts why expertise is good and why hit is good, but, no posts where you compare hit and expertise to one another and when to choose the former or the latter.
You cant pick one to the exclusion of the other.
The balance must be maintained of both. At BT gear level Expertise is the clear winner on what to stack. At the sunwell gear level +hit is the one you will go out of your way for.
Alot of that is simply because one or the other is so prevelent in the itemization.
Till I got alot of the Sunwell +expertise items the shard of contempt was a fixture in my tanking set since it was so much effective hit. Now I dont use it nearly as much and insted find myself fliping in my T5 chest for more +hit.
I was doubting about which enchantment to put on, since this piece is clearly 'aggro oriented'. My choice was gem +15 stam and +10 hit with [Greater Inscription of Warding].
I have the [Fortitude of the Scourge] in the bank, and I thought to put it in the T6 shoulders and use them with the mitigation set. What do you guys think about that ? and if you made other choice which one and why ?
Basically my sets are focused on: +hit/+expertise/+VB/+avoidance (aggro) and +stam/+armor /+VB/+avoidance (mitigation/avoidance).
You can't really go wrong with either the Scryer/Aldor/Naxx enchant honestly. PoP is a great item, period. No, it doesn't have any avoidance beyond the base defense, but the rest of your gear has a load of avoidance.
Also, if you've made it past Twins, your gear is fine all the way to Kil'Jaeden. Don't sweat the little stuff here.
The difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning. - Mark Twain
I was doubting about which enchantment to put on, since this piece is clearly 'aggro oriented'. My choice was gem +15 stam and +10 hit with [Greater Inscription of Warding].
I have the [Fortitude of the Scourge] in the bank, and I thought to put it in the T6 shoulders and use them with the mitigation set. What do you guys think about that ? and if you made other choice which one and why ?
Basically my sets are focused on: +hit/+expertise/+VB/+avoidance (aggro) and +stam/+armor /+VB/+avoidance (mitigation/avoidance).
I would put the FoS on the new shoulders with 10 hit and 15 stam, and never take them off. That's my plan anyway.
Once we move into Lichking, that may not be the case. It really depends on how much they scale up mob armor values as we level. Unless they reduce the effectiveness of deathfrost and mongoose as we level, like they did with crusader, they'll be better at 80.
It will be interesting to see how deathfrost interacts with abilities like thunderclap, misery, COE, and thorns/fireshield. I understand the attack speed penalties don't stack, but it's still giving you ~224 threat (150*1.3*1.15) each time it procs. Does it benefit from debuffs (increasing the effective damage to 172)? Can it proc off of a thunderclap? Is each mob hit by thunderclap checked independently or do they all get hit if it procs? What about passive damaging spells like holy shield, thorns, darkmoon cards or fireshield? Does it have to be a "cast" damaging spell in order to proc?
There is a chance that deathfrost has an additional agro component besides just the damage. You also need to take into account the 5% spell crit etc. Definitely needs some testing
Revange can only be used if one got a block and it is not on CD. If it is usable nobody would consider using something else for gaining thread.
I know that I'm not the biggest tank ever - I'm only 70 since december. But I tried to do what is described on the Guide on the first page of this thread:
You have 17 rage: Use shield slam if not on CD, else revenge, else devastate
You have 12(9 talented) rage: Use revenge if not on cooldown (CD), else devastate
You have 7 rage: Use revenge if not on CD, else shield bash
Yes, shield bash. Shield bash is an exceptional aggro talent. It is not worthy to be placed into a perfect 4-cycle rotation, but in low rage and decision making situations, it has a notable place.
Shield bash generates 230 base threat (by comparison shield slam is 307, revenge 201, heroic strike 196, and devastate 101). Each of these abilities also generates damage from the bonus damage of the ability. Shield bash has the lowest bonus damage of these abilities, and is the reason it has the lowest threat per second. However, it is not far behind.
In a situation where you have 7 rage, revenge is on cooldown, you are far better off hitting your shield bash button than waiting even half a second for enough rage to devastate. Time is threat, do not waste it waiting for a big hit, get that big hit on the next global.
I dont know if this is the best way, but I dont want to wait 5 or more seconds without doing anything and letting the dps hitting hard.
And even if it would be wise to wait until you have enough rage for SS (that can be longer than its CD and even if you have got the rage you maybe to use revange first, if it just pops up, since its tpr is much better than that of SS) it would help to get more rage so you can use some other skills, too. Btw if you wait until SS is finaly usable and miss it becaus you did not want to use +hit-items all your thread is lost.
I find this to be purely situational. Progression content tanking gives lots of rage. I have to burn rage using Heroic Strike even. Provided you gear for the encounter, you should rarely have to worry about rage. Work on getting a good threat rotation. Shield Slam is my ability of choice. See the crits on that baby with a nice Block rating? Watch your threat jump when you hit it. Between that and Revenge (it should be up every cd) I never lose a mob. So basically I spam devastate while shield slam and revenge are on cd, and if I am getting more rage than I can purge, bring on heroic strike (I use in conjunction with the three aforementioned attacks) and there goes my excess rage. 4-5 her. strikes should bring your rage pool back down until you get it full again.
There is no best tanking formula/rotation. Every tank will be different and you have to find how you like to tank and what rotation works best for you. Shield bash is just not good threat in my eyes so I save that for interrupt occasions.
I find this to be purely situational. Progression content tanking gives lots of rage. I have to burn rage using Heroic Strike even. Provided you gear for the encounter, you should rarely have to worry about rage. Work on getting a good threat rotation. Shield Slam is my ability of choice. See the crits on that baby with a nice Block rating? Watch your threat jump when you hit it. Between that and Revenge (it should be up every cd) I never lose a mob. So basically I spam devastate while shield slam and revenge are on cd, and if I am getting more rage than I can purge, bring on heroic strike (I use in conjunction with the three aforementioned attacks) and there goes my excess rage. 4-5 her. strikes should bring your rage pool back down until you get it full again.
There is no best tanking formula/rotation. Every tank will be different and you have to find how you like to tank and what rotation works best for you. Shield bash is just not good threat in my eyes so I save that for interrupt occasions.
The argument wasn't that Shield Bash was "good threat", the argument was that if you get a streak of completely avoided attacks, and are therefore strapped for rage, Shield Bash is something you can use when Revenge is on CD and you have less than 9 rage. Your entire post was talking about burning off excess rage, the poster(s) you quoted were talking about low rage situations.
The argument wasn't that Shield Bash was "good threat", the argument was that if you get a streak of completely avoided attacks, and are therefore strapped for rage, Shield Bash is something you can use when Revenge is on CD and you have less than 9 rage. Your entire post was talking about burning off excess rage, the poster(s) you quoted were talking about low rage situations.
I think you missed the point.
I wasn't saying anyone was wrong if that is what you insinuate. I've never had less than 9 rage and devastate alone is better threat even if you wait. I use more block value for everything except bosses. This allows max. TPS. His scenario is purely situational luck is all. Most tanks will have gear that allows max. rage and threat for the encounters. I've been in low rage situations, but thats when you rely on other gear.
I was stating my thoughts, nothing more, nothing less. I got his point, I was adding mine.
Do you get my point or were you too busy trying to be defensive?
I wasn't saying anyone was wrong if that is what you insinuate. I've never had less than 9 rage and devastate alone is better threat even if you wait. I use more block value for everything except bosses. This allows max. TPS. His scenario is purely situational luck is all. Most tanks will have gear that allows max. rage and threat for the encounters. I've been in low rage situations, but thats when you rely on other gear.
I was stating my thoughts, nothing more, nothing less. I got his point, I was adding mine.
Do you get my point or were you too busy trying to be defensive?
There are certain fights where if you wear gear that will allow you to always have rage you will die. Take Azgalor for example. If you wear gear that will allow you relative assurance of a constant rage flow, then you're at risk of dying while your healers are all silenced. Fact of the matter is that random numbers are random, and when you do wind up shafted by some random chance, you need to know how to cope until you get hit and your rage bar fills back up again.
I'm not saying you're "wrong", per se, I'm merely saying that your thoughts weren't terribly applicable to the topic-at-hand. Ergo: Missing the point. I'm not being "defensive", I'm merely pointing out how your thoughts -- while well-conceived -- are ill-placed.
Do we have a source on that? The thread over in Public Discussion didn't come to any conclusion.
There was exact wordage when thunderclap and thunderfury were "fixed" back in the BWL era. If you can find the patch notes around then, you might be off to a good start.
06/18/08, 8:02 PM
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