The Protection Guide - Page 74

Fellwraith · 07/17/08, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Suesse

I believe it's actually 190 armor gain. People often forget about agility giving armor, and the T6 helm has a quite a bit.

The T6 helm actually has slightly more armor than the Illidan helm because of that. The agility bonus is also relevant when you're looking at the T6 legs vs Praetorian legguards.

Høtpocket · 07/17/08, 1:21 PM

I have had that ZA helm for a long time, so i haven't had a meta socket helm in a while and totally overlooked the 12 defense 10% shield block value. Thanks for all the help guys, and the answer is probably no to killing illidan that soon.

Defiantly going to go with T6 after remembering that meta

Valdinar · 07/17/08, 1:40 PM

One thing I would like clarification on has to do with hit/expertise and how they "intermingle." I know 9% hit is required to push misses off the table and 23 expertise skill prevents dodges. I'm finding as my guild works on Brutallus that I have acquired a good amount of expertise gear but still have very little hit. To throw some hypothetical numbers out, if a MT warrior is sitting at 4% hit and, let's say, 46 expertise skill, would that excessive expertise accommodate the missing hit so that there are no misses?

Thanks,

Vald

szgeti · 07/17/08, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by Valdinar

One thing I would like clarification on has to do with hit/expertise and how they "intermingle." I know 9% hit is required to push misses off the table and 23 expertise skill prevents dodges. I'm finding as my guild works on Brutallus that I have acquired a good amount of expertise gear but still have very little hit. To throw some hypothetical numbers out, if a MT warrior is sitting at 4% hit and, let's say, 46 expertise skill, would that excessive expertise accommodate the missing hit so that there are no misses?

Thanks,

Vald

No, they are separate stats. Hit does not affect dodge/parry and expertise does not affect miss.

◊ Penguin · 07/17/08, 1:57 PM

Miss isn't affected by expertise at all. You could be wearing 100 expertise and never seen a dodge or parry, but without 9% hit you'd still get misses.

Fellwraith · 07/17/08, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by Valdinar

One thing I would like clarification on has to do with hit/expertise and how they "intermingle." I know 9% hit is required to push misses off the table and 23 expertise skill prevents dodges. I'm finding as my guild works on Brutallus that I have acquired a good amount of expertise gear but still have very little hit. To throw some hypothetical numbers out, if a MT warrior is sitting at 4% hit and, let's say, 46 expertise skill, would that excessive expertise accommodate the missing hit so that there are no misses?

Thanks,

Vald

This is answered in the theorycrafting wikki and I'm pretty sure it's in the original post of this thread.

Melee Combat Mechanics

Please don't sign your posts, we know who you are by looking to the left.

Anasurimbor · 07/17/08, 2:17 PM

What do you mean by "would that excessive expertise accommodate the missing hit so that there are no misses"? I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but these events are independent of each other. Experise lowers the chance that the enemy dodges and parries while hit lowers the chance to miss. As long as you are not "parry-capped" expertise is as good as hit (after the "dodge-cap" and not taking parry haste into account), so losing some amount of hit but gaining an equal amount of expertise is fine. The only reason to prefer hit (besides the possibility you are expertise-capped) is if it is important to taunt. Brutallus would be such a fight, but there the possibility to miss a taunt is fixed (1%).

Again sorry if I misunderstood you (english is not my native language), but for me a "miss" is an event in the attack table which is influenced by hit as parry and dodge are events which are influenced by expertise. After reaching the cap with hit and/or expertise they become useless. Of course with both you get a higher chance to actually "hit" the boss.

If that was the question I would recommend that you have a closer look at the attack table.

Valdinar · 07/17/08, 2:25 PM

Question answered, thanks much.

Riot · 07/18/08, 2:21 PM

FYI: Since the NDA is lifted I can state that I do not believe Vigilance is yet in it's final form.

muulan · 07/18/08, 7:25 PM

3/3 imp revenge (+25% revenge dmg) vs. 3/3 incite (+15% crit on HS/TC/Cleave)

incite will prob be triggered more since you do more of heroic strikes in a boss fight than revenge. But 25% dmg is alot for revenge and theres that stun for 5mans/trash...

which is better?

Grizlock · 07/18/08, 7:32 PM

Does anybody still use the mod tank points? I used to use this a lot but it seems to be broken now, was wondering if there was a fix to get it working again. I have it installed, but I don't get the option in my paperdoll anymore even though it doesn't error or anything when I start wow.

Armina · 07/18/08, 7:33 PM

My concern is with the Sword and Board talent, whether this is a perk of speccing deep in protection tree or not. A tank could be lucky in getting this to proc a lot and be comfortably quite ahead on threat meters, and at other times will rarely proc at all. It adds too much randomness in my opinion and can only hope it has a hidden internal cooldown to balance things out. What do others think?

muulan · 07/18/08, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by Armina

My concern is with the Sword and Board talent, whether this is a perk of speccing deep in protection tree or not. A tank could be lucky in getting this to proc a lot and be comfortably quite ahead on threat meters, and at other times will rarely proc at all. It adds too much randomness in my opinion and can only hope it has a hidden internal cooldown to balance things out. What do others think?

That skill seems to be the only saving grace for warrior tanks. Both ferals and prot pallies (specially pallies) got huge buffs to threat making them very viable (if not superior) to warrior tanks in Wotlk. Our only unique advantage now will be single target threat superiority with sword and board. We are no longer superior in migitation since our shield block gets nerfed. It is indeed a deep prot talent and I think it might also be something they added to make prot pvp (LOL) possible (but never viable). Dev spam for a proc so you can spam sheild slams for respectable damage and dispels.

Crimsonstorm · 07/18/08, 8:09 PM

Sword and Board:

So our rotation will be SS, Dev, Dev, Rev. if Sword and board procs we start the cycle over to use the SS.

10% chance to get the SS speeded up by 4.5 sec, 10% chance to speed by 3 sec, 10% by 1.5 sec.

So 30% chance to gain an average of 3 seconds of speedup on SS (50% speedup). 30% * 50% = 15% more Shield Slams. To do the new SS you lose a Revenge or Devastate, but you save 17 rage cause its free, so thats like an extra heroic strike (I'll say thos ecancel).

So basically 5 talents in Sword and Board = 15% more shield slams. Shield slam is like 30% of our threat, so we're talking 4-5% threat increase for 5 talents. So its like, a little better than Cruelty. Whee.

Pallies got a new shield slam for HOLY damage equal to 200% of block value, not reduced by armor, plus high threat. Thats a lot better than our shield slam situation, especially due to the armor reduction.

spawnstah · 07/18/08, 9:49 PM

Originally Posted by Grizlock

Does anybody still use the mod tank points? I used to use this a lot but it seems to be broken now, was wondering if there was a fix to get it working again. I have it installed, but I don't get the option in my paperdoll anymore even though it doesn't error or anything when I start wow.

I still have it loaded and it works for me.
Have you tried the latest version? http://files.wowace.com/TankPoints/TankPoints.zip

Tifi · 07/19/08, 7:38 AM

What kind of observations are the stated Boss parry mechanics based on? The thread referenced in that section is mainly concerned with the player parrying, not with getting parryied.

I'm currently experimenting with getting parryied, and the attack speed reduction of normal lvl 70-72 mobs does certainly not depend on the attacker's attack speed, but on the attack speed of the parrying mob. I'm wielding a 1.3 dagger, and the maximum AS reduction for a mob with AS 2.0 is 0.8 (reduced to 1.2), not 0.52. The results I'm getting are very consistent with a theory where the AS reduction only depends on the mob's AS and its remaining swing time.

And anyways, why would Blizzard use the attackers attack speed? Would there be any advantage that justifies a more complicated formula? Most of the time there's a good explanation for their design. It's not like we're observing nature here and trying to find sort-of arbitrary laws of physics to explain these observations.

◊ Penguin · 07/19/08, 8:32 PM

When you attack a mob and he parries your attack: the mob's swing timer is reduced by 40% of maximum, down to a lower limit of 20% of total swing timer, based on where their swing timer is when the parry occurs.

When a mob attacks you and you parry their attack: your swing timer is reduced by 40% of maximum, down to a lower limit of 20% of total swing timer, based on where your swing timer is when the parry occurs.

The swing reduction always has to do with who (mob or player) is doing the parrying, not who is parried, which I think you got confused. Your post is a little unclear on that point.

Tifi · 07/20/08, 4:57 AM

Penguin, my point is that the article states

Originally Posted by Quigon

There are one of three possible outcomes of a boss parrying your attack:
* If the next attack would normally occur within 20% of your weapon speed after the parry, there is no effect.
* If the next attack would normally occur between 20% and 60% of your weapon speed later, it happens 20% of your weapon speed later instead.
* If the next attack would normally occur more than 60% of your weapon speed later, the time until your next attack is reduced by 40% of your weapon speed.

I believe this is wrong, and "of your weapon speed" should be changed to "of the mob's weapon speed". It also says "the time until your next attack is reduced", which clearly is a copypaste error.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Suggested changes

There are one of three possible outcomes of a boss parrying your attack:
* If the mob's remaining swing time is less than 20% of the mob's weapon speed, there is no effect.
* If the mob's remaining swing time is between 20% and 60% of the mob's weapon speed, it is reduced to 20% of the mob's weapon speed.
* If the mob's remaining swing time is more than 60% of the mob's weapon speed, it is reduced by 40% of the mob's weapon speed.

Edit 2: Well, actually the entire section originally posted by Quigon is a copypaste error. Everything would be fine if it said: "Imagine you're the boss mob...".

Fellwraith · 07/20/08, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Penguin

When you attack a mob and he parries your attack: the mob's swing timer is reduced by 40% of maximum, down to a lower limit of 20% of total swing timer, based on where their swing timer is when the parry occurs.

When a mob attacks you and you parry their attack: your swing timer is reduced by 40% of maximum, down to a lower limit of 20% of total swing timer, based on where your swing timer is when the parry occurs.

The swing reduction always has to do with who (mob or player) is doing the parrying, not who is parried, which I think you got confused. Your post is a little unclear on that point.

I do think there's also evidence that the haste effect of multiple parries can stack. IE if the boss parries multiple attacks between his swings, each parry increases the boss' attack speed. I've seen parry flurries from Gorefiend where he has a 0.5 second swingspeed, which is much more than a 40% increase. There are multiple incidences of a parry in the combat log before the swing (he turned to cast crushing shadows and incinerate), leading me to believe that the parry haste effect can stack.

◊ Penguin · 07/20/08, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Fellwraith

I do think there's also evidence that the haste effect of multiple parries can stack. IE if the boss parries multiple attacks between his swings, each parry increases the boss' attack speed. I've seen parry flurries from Gorefiend where he has a 0.5 second swingspeed, which is much more than a 40% increase. There are multiple incidences of a parry in the combat log before the swing (he turned to cast crushing shadows and incinerate), leading me to believe that the parry haste effect can stack.

Oh, it definitely can, down to a minimum of 20% of the max swing speed. I seem to recall that Teron is a 2.0 swing timer, so that means that if he turned and every melee you had parried him, he could concievably drop his timer down to ~0.4 seconds.

Tifi · 07/20/08, 5:52 PM

When a mob parries twice, his swing timer is always set to 20% of his attack speed, 20% of 2.4 is 0.48. 3 or more parries do not "stack" though (i.e. have the same effect as 2 parries).

Zaroua · 07/20/08, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by muulan

3/3 imp revenge (+25% revenge dmg) vs. 3/3 incite (+15% crit on HS/TC/Cleave)

incite will prob be triggered more since you do more of heroic strikes in a boss fight than revenge. But 25% dmg is alot for revenge and theres that stun for 5mans/trash...

which is better?

If anything, the stun on Improved Revenge becomes an hindrance in content you outgear. On the other hand, using it when soloing/PvPing is simply awesome.

rdb479 · 07/20/08, 8:10 PM

Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm

Sword and Board:

So our rotation will be SS, Dev, Dev, Rev. if Sword and board procs we start the cycle over to use the SS.

10% chance to get the SS speeded up by 4.5 sec, 10% chance to speed by 3 sec, 10% by 1.5 sec.

So 30% chance to gain an average of 3 seconds of speedup on SS (50% speedup). 30% * 50% = 15% more Shield Slams. To do the new SS you lose a Revenge or Devastate, but you save 17 rage cause its free, so thats like an extra heroic strike (I'll say thos ecancel).

So basically 5 talents in Sword and Board = 15% more shield slams. Shield slam is like 30% of our threat, so we're talking 4-5% threat increase for 5 talents. So its like, a little better than Cruelty. Whee.

Pallies got a new shield slam for HOLY damage equal to 200% of block value, not reduced by armor, plus high threat. Thats a lot better than our shield slam situation, especially due to the armor reduction.

Currently the cooldown on shield block and revenge are the same, so you are pretty much guaranteed a revenge after every 5 seconds. With the cooldown of shield block increasing to 30 seconds(20 talented) you are going to be relying up a dodge,parry, or innate block after every 5 second mark in order to trigger revenge and only reliably be able to fit it in every shield block cooldown. Heck, maybe that is what the talent that increases it's damage is all about, to make up for deficiencies that may arise with triggering it.

◊ Quigon · 07/21/08, 12:08 AM

Wow we're arguing editing and grammar now in a 60 page guide, when anyone with a brain knows what it means. What a joke. I think the subject focus is pretty obvious anyway.

You can read the original post from here btw, also linked in the guide - clicking on that would've probably helped save you a lot of time:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t15257-m...cs/#post459820

Sepulture · 07/21/08, 12:25 AM

I would add to the "Spec Wise" part our M'uru section:

Consider taking 3/3 improved revenge as a side tank for frequent stuns on the humanoids, especially if you do not sheep or CC the adds.

I tried this last night and it allowed us to easily use a no-cc strategy on a side using a prot warrior. With Cleave, SR, and TC, threat was not an issue and the chain stuns on your target drastically reduce flurry damage. An occasional Concussive Blow or Disarm on the /focus Berserker is all that's necessary to keep him out of flurry, you don't even need a rogue.