Tifi

You wrote that "If the next attack would normally occur more than 60% of your weapon speed later, the time until your next attack is reduced by 40% of your weapon speed." So if the mob has an attack speed of 2.4, and I'm wielding a weapon with attack speed 1.3, then my swing timer is reduced by 40%*1.3s=0.52s? English is not my first language, but I'm pretty sure it's not a matter of grammar.

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. You wrote a great guide, and I really wouldn't bother if it wasn't great already. But what's wrong with improving to make it even better?

Author of EventHorizon Quartz_LatencyMF2 CooldownWatch

 

ricked

Sorry for another threat discussion but I really have to figure this out.

We just got out of a BT raid tonite where I was only pushin about 900 - 1300 TPS on Naj before downing him. Normally I can throw down about 1100 - 1400 but for whatever reason I could not get over 1000 most of the time on Naj. My rotation is the usualy SS, dev x3, SS, dev x2, then SS, rev, dev x2.

Our GM just recently put his MT to rest and went to his pally for healing. So I'm up for an MT spot and I need to really push my threat for this to work. I've read the posts on progression tanking and have stacked most of the stam I could (plz armory me ). With full stam gear threat isn't so good, but with threat gear stam isn't nearly as good. I would really like some feedback on my gear and what I can do to improve TPS. I'm going to start using heroic potions and flame caps for more threat as well as sharpenin stones. I have an "aggresive build," but it isn't working.

I would greatly appreciate any knowledge on whether I should get more +exp/hit, SBV, crit, agi, etc. I.e. is SBV more valuable than some expertise/stam? I realize its not much TPS so I don't think its worth it.

Finally I would like to know if I should really push for the 4 piece set on the t5 set or stay with the 2 when I get the helm, and just how much threat that 2-set really pushes. Thanks a ton. I hope this isn't too dumb/confusing.

 

◊ Penguin

So I just finished up two rounds of testing various mechanics on boss-level mobs. It's a bit too bad, because Wrath looks like it's going to be significantly changing how a lot of these numbers work, but hopefully this will be helpful to someone in the here and now. All the tests were done on my main (linked in my profile) versus a skull-level mob in Z'G (usually Bloodlord Mandokir since he can take a beating forever) with a shaman healer casting Earth Shield, Grace of Air, Strength of Earth, Healing Stream and the occasional Healing Wave. All the tests were done in a consistent manner to ensure accuracy when comparing, with no self-buffs, foods, flasks, oils, scrolls, or anything of that nature.

First up:
A continuation on the taunt resist/melee hit interaction that I did earlier. A few pages back the question came up where it seemed that melee +hit might be affecting Thunderclap and Demo Shout as well. Not much to say here, they don't. It was pretty obvious, but now we have a nice spreadsheet (attached) and lots of numbers to back that up.
Summary:
- Test 1: 1.40% hit rating
Demo Shout:
Cast: 6115
Resist: 1053
Resist %: 17.22

Thunderclap:
Cast: 1264
Resist: 210
Resist %: 16.61

Demo Shout + Thunderclap:
Cast: 7379
Resist: 1263
Resist %: 17.12

- Test 2: 17.82% hit rating
Demo Shout:
Cast: 2812
Resist: 484
Resist %: 17.21

Thunderclap:
Cast: 1021
Resist: 168
Resist %: 16.45

Demo Shout + Thunderclap:
Cast: 3834
Resist: 652
Resist %: 17.01

Granted the sample size was smaller on Test #2, but the overwhelming amount of hit that I had on my gear at the time would have shown as a significant change in the numbers. The fact that there was no change at all means we can put this to bed and say that melee hit does not affect Thunderclap or Demo Shout in any way, shape or form.


Next up:
With the advent of gobs of expertise on tanking gear, there comes a time when we need to know how much is too much. After all, any point of expertise spent over the "parry cap" is essentially a wasted stat. We know the "dodge cap" very well, but the parry cap has been somewhat hazy until now. There has been some WWS parses showing that with exp numbers in the 14-15% range there were no parries in an entire BT clear (by Xav from <Premonition> if I recall), but that just wasn't accurate enough for my liking.

So I started testing parry rates at increasing levels of expertise, and the results are a bit interesting and certainly not the number I was expecting going in to the testing.

- Test #1: 7% parry reduction from expertise
Swings: 5966
Parries: 344
Parry %: 5.77
Exp % + Parry %: 12.77

- Test #2: 13% parry reduction from expertise
Swings: 5765
Parries: 50
Parry %: 0.87
Exp % + Parry %: 13.87

- Test #3: 13.25% parry reduction from expertise
Swings: 4745
Parries: 31
Parry %: 0.65
Exp % + Parry %: 13.90

- Test #4: 13.50% parry reduction from expertise
Swings: 5602
Parries: 8
Parry %: 0.14
Exp % + Parry %: 13.64

- Test #5: 13.75% parry reduction from expertise
Swings: 10191
Parries: 0
Parry %: 0.00
Exp % + Parry %: 13.75

I ran the 13.75% test twice as you can see from the much larger swing sample, and still no parries. I also had a large test (~7k swings) at 14% exp with zero parries, but the data indicates that 13.75% is the magic number. Looking at it from a pure threat side, you need 9% melee hit and 13.75% exp to never get a miss, dodge or parry ever again. Make of this data what you will, I'm going to be busy when Wrath drops redoing all these tests anyways.

Attached are 2 zip files containing the Excel spreadsheets with the calculations and parsed combat logs, as well as the raw combat logs from the testing, if anyone wants to review the numbers.

Attached Files

	Spell Hit Data.zip (1.88 MB, 10 views)
	Exp Cap Data.zip (4.78 MB, 32 views)

There's not some hidden "but he tries really hard" variable built into the game. -Slake

I always love the "it doesn't fit my style of play" line. There are only two styles of play; Correct, and Incorrect. The only people that ever use this line are people with the incorrect style of play. -Sebudai

 

pindle

Interesting tests Penguin, very nice. So I would assume TC and demo still use spell hit to determine hit chance, given the very rare chance for TC to crit e.g. Too bad they didn't change them to melee hit like they did to taunt.

 

Fredaykin

Very nice test indeed penguin, good job. From the numbers you've got, it looks like the reduction in parries is not linear between the dodge cap and the parry cap, then (I think) it should be a point where each point of expertise, value less than a point of hit (without reaching the parry cap) since you will get more hits per point than less parries for the same amount.
Or I'm missing something ?

 

◊ Penguin

I think that the parry reduction is linear, and that each point of expertise is worth exactly the same as a point of hit from the dodge cap to the parry cap. The small variations you see in the "Exp % + Parry %" value between each test are just the fluctuations of the RNG. I'm positive that with 20 or 30k swings at every point, expertise would be shown to be linear. After all, the mob has a set percent chance to parry (13.75%), and each point of expertise on the character sheet reduces that by 0.25%.

There's not some hidden "but he tries really hard" variable built into the game. -Slake

I always love the "it doesn't fit my style of play" line. There are only two styles of play; Correct, and Incorrect. The only people that ever use this line are people with the incorrect style of play. -Sebudai

 

Borodin

Great work Penguin and sorry if you spent a lot of time on the TC/Demo test following in part my mis-remembering something you had said! Good to see what we already knew proved though.

I'm happy to accept 13.75% Parry for Bosses - glad the numbers rolled in before Wrath appeared unlike the testing for Weapon Skill which proved the values (and how broken it was) what seemed like days before Blizzard removed the stat and replaced it with Expertise!

Quigon could perhaps stick this into the original guide now.

 

Mumbles

Hmmm, interesting, idd.

Well, for starters, in my experience 900~1300 TPS in Naj'entus is more than enough, my last Naj'entus tanking, my average TPS as calculated from our WWS and coolyo was 811 TPS, obviously, there are peaks, the added MD's around in the middle (which I don't think coolyo is taking into account) and the fact that I'm usually without WF/Feral druid/BM Hunter in the grp, so, if I were you, I wouldn't bother getting more TPS that what you are doing.

Personally I don't like 'rotations' I'm a priority skill chooser, meaning, I choose whatever cd is available to use depending on it's threat generation provided, I have enough rage and, depending on fight I spam HS with devs when everything is in CD, in Naj'entus, with my current best gear, I can actually afford to wait a few times on the SB spam, so I usually end up doing revs,SS,devs+HS untill I get rev and SS CD ready while keeping SB up (when it is justified), and as long as you have rage keep white hits off the combat, HS spam and devs everytime the rest is in CD. I also like all the rage decrease talents like Imp HS, Imp. Sunder and Focused rage, when you reach fights, specially in SWP where you won't be rage starved practically anywhere, then you can drop them out. 5/5 Cruelty is a big TPS bonus, coupled with 4 T6 bonus, which I advise to get, but, don't give it more importance than expertise/hit tbh, the TPS increase is not _THAT_ much noticeable.

About gear, try to get expertise and hit for TPS in T6 content, there's some nice pieces of gear with hit and expertise already in BT (hands) and brooch of deftness (badges) is also good and cheap, or even SSO neck, exp/hit > than SBV for TPS imho.

p.s.
Looking at your armory, ditch 240 armor in hands, I have 2 pair of gloves, 1 with 2% threat and 1 with agility which I changed now to 10 stam patch.
Although there's alot of controversy about gemming, i'm a +12 stam gem on all sockets fan, mainly because it scales with BoK, while parry rating/dodge rating/defense rating does not, I know it's a matter of taste, but I kinda dislike tanks with so much carefull in following socket colors, but if you do want to follow them, at least stick those combined gems with something and +stam.
I would also ditch Anger management and put 2/2 imp SW for MT'ing.

Best regards,

 

Blacksen

The 10 stam part is absurd. Unless you're above 70% mitigation from armor, 240 armor is going to raise your effective health more than 10 stam would.

 

Morgo7h

Truth. The only situation where 10 stam would be marginally better than 240 armor kits is when you are up against consistent spell damage, and just need to soak it up with HP. "Absurd" is a tad strong, though- the itemized difference in EH is very, very marginal between the two (I'm thinking between 50 and 75.)

 

Njial

Never been a fan of either 240 armor or stamina on gloves. Always been 2% threat or if I want some more mitigation, get agi to gloves, for dodge, threat, a wee bit of armor.

Duty is heavier than a mountain, Death is lighter than a feather.

 

Mumbles

The 10 stam patch was done for a specific situation, in which I felt I required a bit more HP, but, as I always try to have 2 pairs of gloves with me, one with 2% threat the other goes with agility.

About 240 armor on gloves, personally, I feel that agility or in a rare situation even stam (which was my case) are better, mainly because of scaling with buffs, namely BoK, armor might be better in terms of EH, but unfortunately, you don't get more 10% armor with BoK, granted, 10% of 10 stam and 12 agility seem little, but in the end it's a bit more than nothing.

Best regards,

 

Novarin

Enchantments on a tank's gear is depends on what you need at your next bosskill. If you're the MT of the guild, you must think the next boss' special abilities and other things. I am not MT and personally i'm using 10 stamina on my gloves for supporting my hp. But if you got enough hp for the next boss in your progress it's not a good idea to stack more hp.

 

Darkrenown

You do, however, get 25% more armour when a priest/shammy critheals you though.

In other news, it seems the spellhit cap in Wrath will be 9% vs bosses and it'll all be removable. That will reduce TC/Demo (and I guess shockwave?) resists dramatically, especially if spell and melee hit are a merged stat.

 

Luuca

This question probably pertains to content too low to be considered here, but I am frustrated by my results and need to get some real answers.

I have read this forum through and through, and understand how Crushing Blows work and how to push them off the table; Armory Link however, in last nights Karazan, Prince crushed me 2-times for ~6k for a wipe, and then ~10k crushing on our 2nd attempt for a wipe. I use Shield Block on every cooldown, had TC up on him to slow his attack speed, and demo shout as well. My gear is pretty typical for a Kara-Alt-Warrior, and threat was not a problem at all. I just can't understand how I'm getting crushed by him so often.

I didn't have WWS or grim reaper, I wish I had. The Blizz UI combat log showed a hunters pet getting Parried by Prince just before both of these events. With pets automatically attacking from behind, I fail to see how this is possible, but it was in the combat log both times. I know this may cause faster attacks from him, but don’t think it would give more of an opportunity to crushing.

Do you think it's possible that the "extra" attacks from the hunters pet parry could have used up my Improved Shield Block on enough of a regular basis to allow for such a common occurrence of getting crushed?

Any feedback or suggestions is appreciated.

Originally Posted by EJ Moderator You have received an infraction at Elitist Jerks. Reason: Useless Post ------- I'm not going to say he didn't deserve that, but it doesn't make your post any less useless. -------

 

Suesse

10k seems pretty high for a prince crush. Maybe demo shout fell off? If you're dieing to crushes in phase 2, it may be because he's dual wielding so he'll eat up your shield block charges very quickly -- also he has thrash or something (basically he has windfury, I think). If this is your main problem, you can stack avoidance and block rating gear a bit to obtain passive crush immunity vs a dual wield target. This will make it impossible for him to crush you during phase 2 without shield block. It's actually not very hard to obtain. You'll still need to spam shield block in phase 1 and 3 when he's not dual wielding.

 

Mumbles

Heheh, I forgot that, but nevertheless, it's a matter of personal taste.

You have more than enough gear for that fight. The big issue with Prince is stage 2, he dual yields and has thrash (like Suesse pointed out) that grants an extra attack on the next swing.

Regardless of what you do with your current gear, on stage 2 you will inevitably get a few crushing blows, that's where the healers need to shine, basically, they can do reactive healing (on start to cast a heal when you take damage) but they need to do proactive healing (keep chain casting that big heal, and either cancel at the last casting time second or let it land and start casting a new one again and so on) in order to deal with that. Depending on the rest of the raid gear of course this can be made easier or harder but with the average intended gear meant for that fight/instance expect some nasty hits on stage 2.

About the parry issues, it's normal if you get some parries after all, specially with the lack of expertise you have, but a pet is not normal and can screw up things a bit. If the pet was visually behind the mob and still got parries it can be the usual sync problem between you and the server (where you see other objects/players around you in a different place that the server thinks they are) and in the end, for the server, the pet might be inside the 180º (might be a bit less, I'm not 100% sure on this number) frontal cone of the boss which can account as being in front and thus get some parries, to fight this things, it's normal to move the boss a bit left or right slowly, a few steps, so that the sync can occur more precisely, usually, I see tanks sitting in they're tanking spot against a wall and get an MD pull, no problems with that, but, I like to move the boss a little (left or right, strafe) after every melee is in the boss already to update the server/client positioning.

Again, with that gear, and if as you say, TC is always on, DS also, and you SB all the time it's up, then I can only point fingers at the healers for not being healing pro actively.

Best regards,

 

Fellwraith

It's pretty normal to see parries from a mob that has "turn to cast" abilities, and there's lots of mobs out there who do it. They turn for half a second to cast an instant spell and parry an attack that was originating from behind them. You just have to deal with it. If it wasn't the hunter pet, it just as easily could have been a rogue or another warrior.

If it isn't feasible for you to be crush immune you can always just increase your armor to level out the spikes. Back when Kara was still new, it wasn't uncommon for me to have a paladin with devotion aura and use ironshields once p2 started (one ironshield should last the majority of the phase).

You can also try to be a bit more proactive with abilities like last stand, nightmare seeds, trinkets, and shieldwall. It isn't always up to your healers to save you. If you died to the actual crushing blow and not after, then that's a healer problem, they need to keep you topped off. If you died after the crush then it may be that you need to react faster.

 

Luuca

Thank you all for helping me understand what was going on. I will definitely get my consumables in order and take a more active role in my own self-preservation. The only reason this was such a thorn in my side was that since I started reading up on this forum, I had somehow avoided the crushing blow wipes up to last night. Perhaps it was the pro-heals before and PUG heals last night.. I don’t know. Either way, the explanation and tips will help immensely.

Another quick question:

Preface: In this thread, the Mitigation Tank (aka:Me) spec suggests removing 5/5 Imp 1-handed weapon in favor of Imp Demo Shout. I was reluctant to do this due to my difficulty in generating threat quickly on trash. I have since aquired the Shard of Contempt, and have been using that for trash and my Adamantine Idol for Bosses.

Q: For my level of gear and raiding (Gruul and below), would re-speccing the 5/5 Imp Demo and using the Shard (instead of the idol) be considered an equivalent combo to 5/5 Imp 1-handed and the Idol? My reasoning being that the Imp Demo+shard seems a stronger combo, and I could always go Max Mitigation by swapping back in the idol.


Just read over this, and it’s like asking Nolan Ryan how to hold a baseball. Such low-level crap you guys probably have forgotten that some of these items even exist.

As usual, your help is greatly appreciated.

Originally Posted by EJ Moderator You have received an infraction at Elitist Jerks. Reason: Useless Post ------- I'm not going to say he didn't deserve that, but it doesn't make your post any less useless. -------

 

muulan

As far as I can recall, prince never turned to cast anything. How is the pet causing the parry? I thought hunter pets now stay behind the mob to DPS.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....53665HiXkH.png

 

Kavtor

Doesn't he turn and instant cast Shadow word: Pain? That could do it.

Unless you're running with a warlock casting Curse of Recklessness, (which you probably aren't at that level, or don't need too) 2/5 demo shout is all you need to knock off most of a bosses default attack power. You can put a 8 / 7 / 4x spec together that picks up Imp. Thunderclap, 2/5 Imp. Demo shout, and 5/5 1h spec.

I'd only wear the Adamantine Figurine over the Shard if you need the defense rating for the def cap. The shard is pretty decent mitigation as well as threat against bosses.

 

Mumbles

If I remember correctly (it has been a while since I last tanked prince) he only does the SW:Pain in stage 3 together with the axes thing hitting the raid player. Stage 2 is tank and spank with dual yield, shadow nova and Enfeeble, so if my memory doesn't fail me, he never changes where he faces when casting Enfeeble, Shadow Nova and the Inferno.

Although it's true and it happens, for instance we had a similar situation in Brutalus where he parried a rogue attack when he faced the melee camp behind him to cast a burn, although we couldn't check if he actually got the melee attack speed increase due to it, I don't think that was the case of what happened to Luuca in stage 2, I would put my bets on client/server desync tbh.

Best regards,

 

Luuca

Being a self-proclaimed Spreadsheet Lackey I took on the Protection Warrior spreadsheet today. I think that, as long as Kavtor is correct about only needing the 2/5 Improved Demo, I will gain close to 10% TPS in new spec/gear set-up. My Mitigation and Avoidance are affected, but both atvery small amounts.

I am unsure of exactly what phase I was in at the moment of failure, but I do remember Prince casting SWP on members in the ranged group. I know this because he did turn to face them. I panic a little every time a mob turns, expecting to have lost aggro. It was that time I definately saw him quickly turn.

Originally Posted by EJ Moderator You have received an infraction at Elitist Jerks. Reason: Useless Post ------- I'm not going to say he didn't deserve that, but it doesn't make your post any less useless. -------

 

Xav

Thanks for testing the Expertise stuff Penguin. I must say, I'm surprised as well by the 13.75% number. It really seemed like it was higher than that. I'll attempt to do a BT clear (maybe even sunwell) one week with no more than 14% - previously I was sometimes putting on my Nightstrike to give me a bit more. But 10,000 swings does certainly seem like more than enough.

It's nice to have this a solid number now rather than our guesstimations!

 

Kerchak

Do all skull-bosses have the same parry rate as Mandokir?
If not, it could be interesting to have a list of parry rates for each raid bosses (like the one we have for armor values)