In my experience, for optimal threat generation the stats to stack are in the following order:
Expertise > Hit > Block Value > Strength > Agility
Capping Expertise got me the most bang for my buck, once I hit it I noticed a marked increase in my threat gen as well as less bursty incoming damage.
There is indeed a hit cap for warriors, to my knowledge it follows the normal hit cap for a main hand weapon in which has been in place for some time now. That would be 5% v. a level 70 mob, 6% v. 71, 7% v. 72 and 8% v. 73.
Block value is added to your shield slam damage at a ratio of 1:1, so it's raw threat bonus is dependent on how much actual damage it generates vs. what you are in fighting. (Damage is mitigated as normal by armor, etc.)
Strength and Agility are preferable to Attack Power and Crit since they serve dual roles. Strength contributes, however minimally, to you shield block value and Agility contributes to your armor in the same manner.
As a rule of thumb, I would not be overly concerned with actually reaching the hit cap. Squeezing out 8% hit can be somewhat difficult without access to high end gear and sacrificing large amounts of Block, Strength or Agility for 1/2% more hit is probably a bad tradeoff. At that point it is really more your decision than anything else based on the content you are currently attempting.
Edit: If I messed up any of my numbers, someone please correct me, I've been out of the TCing loop for a while now and some of my information may be in error. I will correct anything as quickly as possible.
For those who have tanked the blood elves on M'uru, how much avoidance do you stack before you are comfortable with no sheeping?
Also, do attacks before the elves are "set" count for threat?
My current armory is what I've used to tank M'uru from the learning stages through to our kills (minus the ring of course which was previously [Band of the Eternal Defender] so there was no real difference in avoidance). In raw numbers I have 7.96% miss, 32.56% dodge, and 25.4% parry. My side gets solo healed by a resto shaman and I do dip low at times, but as long as you're on the ball with stuns and disarms on the berserkers you should be fine.
I believe threat starts accumulating on the elves once you can actually attack them, otherwise I have a hard time believing a single tclap would hold them at all.
FAO Khadiz - this is all basic stuff you can see on places like TankSpot or WoWWiki. Anyway here's some answers:
What stats are worth stacking for maximum threat?
Expertise > Hit > Block Value in that order. Expertise Caps at 55 Expertise Skill (not rating), Hit caps at 142 Rating (+9%), SBV has no cap.
How much threat does block value add to shield slam?
1 for 1 before Threat Modifiers from Stance/Talents etc ie 1 Block Value = 1 Damage = 1 Threat. With Shield Mastery you get 1.3 SBV per itemised SBV and thus 1.3 damage per 1.
SBV is an efficient way to boost threat.
You may also be pleased to know Shield Slam damage is boosted by 1H Weapon Spec (the tooltip is finally clarified in Wrath).
How much threat does attack power add to heroic strike and devastate?
There's no AP threat modifier except the normal AP modifier to the damage of these attacks (and Devastate is AP Normalized). In Wrath, Sunder (and therefore Devastate) will gain some scaling threat modifier based off AP.
Is there any hit cap for potection warriors?
142 Rating / 9%
First of all I read your entire guide printed it and have it sitting next to my comp for quick access. Very useful guide here thanks to all who took the time to put it together. My question pertains to the setup of a good keyboard. Some people use right hand mouse left hand WASD some people use mouse left and the 10 key pad and yet others use just the keyboard with the mouse for camera angles. I have an idea but it would be un supported speculation. For main tanking purposes what would be a good/the best keyboard setup. If this was previously addressed can you point me in the right direction because I must have missed it? Thanks for all the help with the guides this is true dedication.
That's a point of endless, inconclusive debate. Do whatever feels right for you, that allows you to move, use most/all of your abilities, and talk on vent at the same time.
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler on why the tiered difficulty content model doesn't work
As I have said a million times, good games (maybe good anything) can’t be designed by popular vote.
Do all skull-bosses have the same parry rate as Mandokir?
If not, it could be interesting to have a list of parry rates for each raid bosses (like the one we have for armor values)
Of course that would be interesting, but it's hard to test. Take Teron for example. Let's say the MT wears 4% exp and gets parried 5%. That doesn't mean he would be parry immune at 9% exp; a) because of the small sample size, and b) because Teron turns around all the time, and the MT hits him in the back. The combatlog doesn't tell you that.
The best way to approach it would be to have some MTs try out different exp values, starting at 13.75%, and lowering the value in small steps, until parries occur. If someone is willing and able to do this, please post the exp value you had, so others could maybe run the same instance with a different value.
Then again, apart from being interesting, to whom would it really matter? How much expertise is available to BT/MH tanks? Badge neck, pants, wrists, Lurker mace, Defiance, Human racial = 7.75%, Lower City ring = 9%, for me that's the max ATM. Even if Teron decides to drop the gloves, I could only reach 10.25%. Orcs can get a tiny bit more with the Brutalizer. So it's probably only important to ppl tanking Sunwell.
Just to comment that Teron is definately a Boss I'd say was at the top of the Parry rating charts - I'd wager the full 13.75% infact.
He's THE boss I think of when I think about Parry issues I've had and in our early attempts on him I had some horrendous Parry streaks. Every time I got some Expertise I thought of him
Of course that would be interesting, but it's hard to test. Take Teron for example. Let's say the MT wears 4% exp and gets parried 5%. That doesn't mean he would be parry immune at 9% exp; a) because of the small sample size, and b) because Teron turns around all the time, and the MT hits him in the back. The combatlog doesn't tell you that.
The best way to approach it would be to have some MTs try out different exp values, starting at 13.75%, and lowering the value in small steps, until parries occur. If someone is willing and able to do this, please post the exp value you had, so others could maybe run the same instance with a different value.
Then again, apart from being interesting, to whom would it really matter? How much expertise is available to BT/MH tanks? Badge neck, pants, wrists, Lurker mace, Defiance, Human racial = 7.75%, Lower City ring = 9%, for me that's the max ATM. Even if Teron decides to drop the gloves, I could only reach 10.25%. Orcs can get a tiny bit more with the Brutalizer. So it's probably only important to ppl tanking Sunwell.
MGT trinket, I reach 13.75% exactly in BT/Badge gear only, I gib alot of avoidance but it's doable. It's not worth going for it unless you want to really push threat or want to see no parries at all, but theres two bosses on which parry can cause real issues(gorefiend and sharaz) and you probably can't really sacrifice that much avoidance there.
MGT trinket, I reach 13.75% exactly in BT/Badge gear only, I gib alot of avoidance but it's doable. It's not worth going for it unless you want to really push threat or want to see no parries at all, but theres two bosses on which parry can cause real issues(gorefiend and sharaz) and you probably can't really sacrifice that much avoidance there.
Mother no longer has parry-haste activated as of a new patches ago.
And keep in mind that stacking Expertise means less hits incoming, less chance of your Shield Block buff falling off and opening yourself to crushing blows more easily and thus, less burst damage.
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory
MGT trinket, I reach 13.75% exactly in BT/Badge gear only, I gib alot of avoidance but it's doable.
I just did Kara, because for some reason I kept overlooking the badge waist, which I was able to buy after Maiden. So here's the remaining bosses, I was wearing 13.25% exp all the time. WWS Kara after Maiden (I'm the warrior)
Parries:
Wolf: 1x Heroic Strike
Nightbane: 1x Autohit
Curator: 1x Dev, 1x SS
Illhoof: 1x Dev, 1x SS
Aran: none (yes, I was stubborn enough to continue wearing def gear, but obv didnt always attack from the front)
Netherspite: none (didn't always attack from the front in every other phase)
Prince: 2x Dev
So it looks like these bosses probably require 13.75%, too.
First of all I read your entire guide printed it and have it sitting next to my comp for quick access. Very useful guide here thanks to all who took the time to put it together. My question pertains to the setup of a good keyboard. Some people use right hand mouse left hand WASD some people use mouse left and the 10 key pad and yet others use just the keyboard with the mouse for camera angles. I have an idea but it would be un supported speculation. For main tanking purposes what would be a good/the best keyboard setup. If this was previously addressed can you point me in the right direction because I must have missed it? Thanks for all the help with the guides this is true dedication.
I think this is discussed somewhere in the thread. Typically speaking though you don't click on a "shoot" button, or change weapon button in quake 3. That's your big hint.
I'd like to bring the following item to the discussion - I apologize in advance for not knowing how to link the item to the forums. The piece of gear I am talking about is the Chestpiece from M'uru. After looking at it and comparing it to T6 chest I am not convinced I should spend the sunmote and trade my beautiful dps chestpiece (once again I am not sure how to link it).
I was taking a look at the stats between T6 and Agony's Aversion.
Onslaught Tank Chest has
1) Higher Crit
2) Higher Shield block raiting
3) 4 Piece T6
I've been focusing more on threat than mitigation since I like the current level I have atm. I can make multiple tanking sets but I like the flexibility that my current tank set has, high stam, high avoidance (dodge parry armor), decent hit, high expertise and relatively high block value.
I do not really want to abandon the 4 Piece T6 Bonus since I plan to maintain 3 pieces at the time being. DPS is generally not threat capped (with the exception of some fights) but I like to have a huge buffer zone so dps can keep pushing it.
The main feature of the Agony's Chestpiece is the Haste raiting. After doing some math that would decrease my attack speed from 1.48 to 1.44 which translates to 2 extra swings per minute. I was too lazy to calculate the tps from that.
I'd like to hear some opinions about why this item is so much superior and why i should use 1 sunmote to get it.
By a lot more stats do you mean 70 hp? assuming T6 chest is socketed with 3 15 stamina gems and agony's aversion is socketed using 15 stam x 2 and 7 stam 5 agi. Needless to mention that you are trading agility -that scales with kings-, parry for a net effect of .4% dodge.
I'd still like to hear an argument as to why I should drop my T6 chest in order to acquire the renounced and proclaimed "best in slot for threat tank chestpiece."
It may not have a mathematical basis, but if you've killed M'uru and have the choice of Tier 6 and Agony's Aversion, wearing either of them in any scenario isn't going to get you any sort of benefit that you will notice except on paper. Either of them is going to serve you well enough until Wrath.
Last edited by Tauftamir : 08/03/08 at 11:56 AM.
Originally Posted by Shaker
Blacksen is actually a computer AI developed by IBM to tackle the world's hardest AI problem: Out-trolling Zyla.
I don't undestand why Blizzard has created only 3 more T6 and other insane pieces in Sunwell to replace the older T6 gear from BT/Hyjal. It could have been better if they had created a fourth T6 piece like a ring or a collar to still have the 4 pieces bonus.
Is there any tip for tanking that fight? We got there for the first time yesterday, and while we almost got it (13% when I died), I really feel I threat-capped my DPS and made my healers suffer a bit. I know; paladins are better there, but we don't always run with one, and I could easily let the other prot warrior take P1 and gear in a better way for P2/P3. Would that be a smart call?
Also, regarding the screams.. I play at a ~400ms latency and as much as I tried to stance dance before screams, that was just wasting loads of GCDs that could be much better spent.
I thought that maybe using reflect to waste rage would be a smart move - but maybe with a gear more suitable to that phase the problems would be a bit smaller.
Is there any tip for tanking that fight? We got there for the first time yesterday, and while we almost got it (13% when I died), I really feel I threat-capped my DPS and made my healers suffer a bit. I know; paladins are better there, but we don't always run with one, and I could easily let the other prot warrior take P1 and gear in a better way for P2/P3. Would that be a smart call?
Also, regarding the screams.. I play at a ~400ms latency and as much as I tried to stance dance before screams, that was just wasting loads of GCDs that could be much better spent.
I thought that maybe using reflect to waste rage would be a smart move - but maybe with a gear more suitable to that phase the problems would be a bit smaller.
Any tips?
The Key to a smooth p3 is to have another tank take the initial aggro so you get the Seethe debuff increaseing your threat by 200% for 5-8 secs( can't remember exact time) once you have the debuff you get aggro back and go to town, none of your dps starts until the debuff drops off, at that point you should have a nice little threat ceiling to work with.
I wanted to use a tactic similar to Nik's but really we went more for the "Crazy DPS from the start tactic".
Initially the problem was me dying rather than losing threat (as my gear was more setup with earlier phases in mind) - of course then another Tank was ready to taunt but in the end I settled on:
Stacking a mix of Threat and Stamina Gear - Expertise being a big one here and I love the Heroic MgT Trinkets on this fight. Block Value helping out quite a lot in Phase 1 but not too important.
NO Stance Dancing unless desperate because it costs too much TPS spending cooldowns changing stance - I use Spell Reflect as an extra Rage Dump and Dance 3 seconds before a scream if that combined with regular threat spam can't keep my rage down. The idea is is to ensure not only that you have dumped rage but are comfortably back in Defensive Stance before the Scream.
At 30% Boss Health I hit Shield Wall and Taunt, as that Taunt Debuff Expires I do Challenging Shout, if I do a dance at this stage I slip in a Mocking Blow, Taunt again.
Basically keeping the debuffs active which force him to attack you regardless of threat. Shield Wall just because there were few better places to use it in BT.
You don't need to peform such a desperate series of moves but we found this allowed to us to consistantly blast through this phase without deaths. Unless someone pulls aggro due to the extended Seethe at the end!
If Nik's use of Seethe above is something your Guild goes for it's probably better
We only got to p3 two times - since we have a very bad latency (400ms is probably the best on the whole raid) - we end up messing interrupts on some attempts.
In the first one I tried the taunt+Seethe tactic, but I probably thought I got hit harder due to it and decided against it on the second try. I didn't expect him to melee for 4-5k+ on p3, so it kind of got me (and our healers) off guard.
I will probably try it again if I do tank him. Well, that or using my standard threat gear, with capped hit/expertise and healthy amounts of block - just not enough to hold him in p1 for as long as I do now (around 1k BV with no procs currently - gear I logged out on, armory).
I think we'll give a prot pala a shot if one does show up tho. I'm just not convinced they (the players - not the class) can hold their own - threatwise - since I usually had pretty bad experiences when doing kara with them (as dps) ;p
Just question if your working on having solid avoidance / threat set for the encounter. Why did you not pick up a better helm chant , your not anywhere near hit capped, is the 20 res really helping you threat wise? I just think there is 2 better an easy to obtain choices to help threat wise for your gear.
Most of this is covered in the monster RoS thread in the general forums.
Have a paladin use imp lay on hands on you before the start of the phase, the armor buff should last the duration of the phase. Use an ironshield right before the phase starts, it will also last the full duration of the phase.
Open with devastate x2, then taunt once the reliquary is fully out of the "cocoon" (you can devastate before it's fully loaded on the screen). FYI you don't need to taunt off someone else to get seethe to go off as a warrior. Have your hunters tranq (removes the damage buff from seethe on the boss) and use MD during the seethe to get you additional threat. You have enough time during seethe to get off 2 trinketed shieldslams (autoblocker is a great trinket for every phase of this fight - it reduces damage in p1, dramatically increases threat after deaden in p2, and helps you get a big threat lead in p3). Our dps doesn't start until seethe wears off, then they go full bore for the duration of the fight.
You can reduce the soul scream damage by using spell reflect and shieldblock right in the last 5 seconds before it goes off (shieldblock reduces the odds you'll get crushed right beforehand and fill up your rage bar). I have never stance danced on this fight, it's totally unnecessary. Use nightmare seeds, last stand, and shieldwall (in that order) later in the fight.
@illusive: As I said, the gear on my armory is a BV-oriented set. I got the T4 helm sunday (since I have the eng helm since.. always, I always passed the T4 for alts and lesser geared folks) and tested it on RoS. It was inteded for P1 and P2 (where I don't really have threat issues). I don't know if I'll keep using such a heavy block set tho, might settle for something more balanced.
@Fellwraith: Thanks for the tips. Yeah, I read a part of that topic (some 10-15 pages) - I'll admit I didn't read it fully. I know about the not needing to taunt off someone else - actually did that myself yesterday. Didn't know about Tranq Shot however, so it might help.
Thanks for the tips, I'll ask a pally to LoH me next time.
One thing plagues me tho: the 10s no-dps during Seethe. Such a long time without DPSing won't hinder the attempt or the Aura's buff to DPS more than makes up for it? To give an idea of our raid's average DPS, our top DPSers (locks, BM hunters, fury wars) reach 1600-1800 DPS on tank/spank fights.
Considering the fact that I'll lose the 4-piece bonus when equipping the Illidan helm, is it worth it getting the t6 legs ([Onslaught Legguards]) to maintain the 4-piece bonus? For trash I guess it is because I'm over the expertise cap for normal mobs but I'm uncertain when it comes to bossfights.
07/28/08, 12:57 PM
Similar Threads
