Warbringer is certainly on my hit list; the 5 expertise it grants is certainly nothing to laugh at. But it'd be only a bit more threat gen than my current weapon (Armory!) and doesn't have all that much defense...
Furthermore, Thrallmar Exalted is a time consuming task, and 5-mans haven't exactly been a joy to fill lately. Your advice has given me some low hanging fruit to replace my greens by Saturday (with a corresponding armor jump) and some caution about which slots are hardest to fill. I'll probably continue my gear-up by aiming for T6 craftables and honor gear to fill the shield and shoulder slots.
There is also [Inuuro's Blade] from Shattered Sun Offensive reputation to consider. With the amount of dailies available it won't take long to reach, and there's the added bonus of the head enchant and [Dawnforged Defender] (at Exalted) to boot.
First thing I noticed is that it seems to calculate threat (which I still think is too low) vs level 73 raid bosses. Obviously, that means you need 9% hit and 13.75% expertise to cap.
...
(it should be higher in the real world because of faster HSes but these aren't included here which makes the Warglaive MH the best threat weapon - so yeah...). Even the flawed TPS calculations of the program agrees: Our weapon is the single most effective slot to get a TPS boost from (barring maybe DPS gear but this is out of the question for Toots anyway).
...
Btw, the reason both Rawr and that sheet might show the same TPS numbers might be because they are from the same author or using the same calculations (I tried checking Rawr for a list of authors, but no luck).
Hi, I am the author of Rawr.ProtWarr. If you go to the Options tab you can select target level, it defaults to 73 (bosses) but it supports 70-73. So change the level to whatever you need. Weapon speed is taken into account for threat. If I use my tank gear with Brutalizer unbuffed except 5 sunders I get: 657 limited tps (no heroic strikes) and 927 unlimited (heroic strike every swing). If I switch to a MH warglaive I get: 682 limited tps (higher because of the higher damage) and 844 (83 tps lower than brutalizer). For the charts I'm taking an average between HS every swing and zero HS swings, I want to make that configurable, but it's low priority.
I have no contact with the author of the threat sheet mentioned. Rawr source code is freely available at Rawr - Home so check out my calculations. Another set of eyes is always better, but please don't throw accusations of flawed calculations around when it's obvious you didn't use Rawr for more than a few seconds. I have put a lot of work into making the calculations as accurate as possible.
Last edited by ezweb : 08/27/08 at 3:48 PM.
Reason: spelling
Warbringer is certainly on my hit list; the 5 expertise it grants is certainly nothing to laugh at. But it'd be only a bit more threat gen than my current weapon (Armory!) and doesn't have all that much defense...
You don't need all that much defense. As long as you're doing 5 mans, the defense cap for being uncrittable is 485 -- NOT 490. 490 only comes into play when you're fighting level 73/boss level mobs. Most of those trash mobs aren't even level 72 for the most part, and I've found 480 to be an acceptable level of defense for 5 mans. Also, never socket for Strength :p.
What you are lacking, however, is a fairly significant amount of health. I'd definitely look into getting the easy upgrades first (Junior Technician's Bracers, Natasha's Battle Chain/Mark of the Ravenguard, Dabiri's Enigma, Breastplate of the Warbringer, Legguards of the Resolute Defender), and otherwise focus on bumping your Stamina up as high as humanly possible.
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler on why the tiered difficulty content model doesn't work
As I have said a million times, good games (maybe good anything) can’t be designed by popular vote.
never socket for Strength ...What you are lacking, however, is a fairly significant amount of health...easy upgrades...focus on bumping your Stamina up as high as humanly possible.
As a free nod to Rawr!, it just made the exact same suggestion.
Makes sense to me...with armor as weak as mine, hits are going to be coming through heavy. I will be regemming and re-enchanting tonight.
Again, I stand by what I said earlier: our weapon is our best slot for threat.
I would like to reiterate just how true this is. A weapon makes a big differance from a threat standpoint. I have advocated using your weapon slot (followed by trinkets) as the best way to increase threat for a while now. Executioner and a good(fast) DPS weapon are a nice boost to threat.
Originally Posted by Goatbert
I've been trying to build a spec that I am comfortable with for 3.0, and I am having some difficulty. It just seems like there is a real shift in the prot tree from threat/avoidance to more of a utility tree with added threat talents, and I'm having a hard time finding a spec I'd feel comfortable with for 3.0 (the content patch that is to come "In the coming weeks"). While I hope we have Kil'jaeden down in the next month, there is a real chance this patch will come out before we down him. My concern is I have no bearing as far as what kind of threat talents I'll need, or what kind of threat my raid will be putting out when you take into account new talents, the changes to blessings, raid wide buffs, the Windfury change. etc.
I guess I'm not really asking for a spec (though I'd be interested to see what some are thinking) but more concerned of how the vast changes for 3.0 to both classes and to raid buffs will affect us before WOTLK.
The one big question i have had about all of this, aside from the fact that we need a lot of work to our prot tree still, is how much of the tanking changes are they planning on putting into effect. Specfiically, I am curious if they are going to add in the changes to AP scaling on threat moves, and if so, are going to revamp the tanking gear prior to WotLk?
As far as the talent trees now, there is no way they could release those PoS trees. At 70, if the AP scaling is as it is now and considering the current loss of expertise, we would have to choose between doing less threat or taking more damage (due to having to make up for the shield block change). And potentially, we could be stuck with both.
Jamor, AP scaling on threat moves is present on several moves so far (to varying degrees):
Sunder Armour (don't know the co-eff.), Thunderclap (the AP scale seems to be the increased damage that was promised but not sure how that pans out at 80), Concussion Blow (25% AP damage and also gains high base threat), Shockwave (25% AP damage).
Heroic Strike already obviously gains from AP and Devastate to a small degree (weapon damage does not contribute massively to Devastate threat). The Sunder Armour AP scale will apply for the first 5 Devastates - not sure if it will get applied afterwards but probably not since currently Devastate does not re-apply Sunder post-5 it just resets the timer.
Apart from that I think a general increase in threat is planned just by having Strength on Tank gear and letting that push up white damage and Shield Slams (2 Strength will equal 1 BV).
Revenge is the odd one out really - no scaling at all so far and even missing at least 1 rank.
But the TPS v DPS maths has not been done by Blizzard yet so it's very much a case of keeping your eyes open for new changes.
PS: Blizzard have hinted at putting Expertise back and one can see Strength all over the new tank gear in Wrath but don't expect your current gear to be redesigned to have more Strength.
Jamor, AP scaling on threat moves is present on several moves so far (to varying degrees):
Sunder Armour (don't know the co-eff.), Thunderclap (the AP scale seems to be the increased damage that was promised but not sure how that pans out at 80), Concussion Blow (25% AP damage and also gains high base threat), Shockwave (25% AP damage).
Heroic Strike already obviously gains from AP and Devastate to a small degree (weapon damage does not contribute massively to Devastate threat). The Sunder Armour AP scale will apply for the first 5 Devastates - not sure if it will get applied afterwards but probably not since currently Devastate does not re-apply Sunder post-5 it just resets the timer.
Apart from that I think a general increase in threat is planned just by having Strength on Tank gear and letting that push up white damage and Shield Slams (2 Strength will equal 1 BV).
Revenge is the odd one out really - no scaling at all so far and even missing at least 1 rank.
But the TPS v DPS maths has not been done by Blizzard yet so it's very much a case of keeping your eyes open for new changes.
PS: Blizzard have hinted at putting Expertise back and one can see Strength all over the new tank gear in Wrath but don't expect your current gear to be redesigned to have more Strength.
There is no scaling like you are talking about in live right now. I was curious if they were going to put it in with 3.0, or wait for WotLK -- I should have been more specific I guess -- I know it's in Beta now, I have been following the news.
To the point about not expecting them to update the tank gear, I do expect them to do that. Otherwise, we will all be tanking in Greens or mostly DPS with enough tank gear to be crit immune. We will not be able to hold aggro very well without any strength on any of our gear. I just really, really hope that they aren't stupid enough to make most green armor better for tanking than Sunwell gear. But even though I would really like to see this gear revamp happen, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't fix it. In some aspects of the game, Blizzard developers just have their heads buried in the sand.
I think you're overplaying the impact of Strength on our threat by quite a bit. Expertise and Hit *will* remain the better threat stats point for point right up until they cap, and odds are you aren't capped with both of them yet. If you are, I doubt you'll have much to worry about threat wise at any rate, since when 3.0 hits you'll get all the benefit from any +ap ability ala Battle Shout or what have you. If anything, our threat output in 3.0 will be fairly spectacular. It certainly doesn't warrant an entire rebalancing of soon-to-be outdated gear to account for Strength as a valid threat stat ala Hunter's Agility in 2.0.
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler on why the tiered difficulty content model doesn't work
As I have said a million times, good games (maybe good anything) can’t be designed by popular vote.
I think you're overplaying the impact of Strength on our threat by quite a bit. Expertise and Hit *will* remain the better threat stats point for point right up until they cap, and odds are you aren't capped with both of them yet. If you are, I doubt you'll have much to worry about threat wise at any rate, since when 3.0 hits you'll get all the benefit from any +ap ability ala Battle Shout or what have you. If anything, our threat output in 3.0 will be fairly spectacular. It certainly doesn't warrant an entire rebalancing of soon-to-be outdated gear to account for Strength as a valid threat stat ala Hunter's Agility in 2.0.
First of all, I think I am confusing people with my wording. I have two separate, but too close so they are causing confusion topics going.
1) I was wondering how far they were going to go with the class changes, including AP scaling on our threat moves.
2) Will they be updating tank gear, because I think it will be hugely helpful when the xpac hits, to wear gear with strength on it. I don't think we will be able to wear a good portion of our current Sunwell level gear in the Xpac, and I think that sucks.
I disagree with your statement about hit capping and expertise capping -- in the Xpac BTW. I think 5 man tanking AP will be preferred over hit and expertise (which won't be near as hard to cap on non-boss mobs), and I expect that to be a good majority of our tanking early on. As far as the gear goes, if they expected it to be replaced with Naxx gear, as was stated, then they probably should re balance it.
P.S. I am Oh so close to capping both hit and expertise on my non-avoidance tank set. I need one more drop - a T6 belt socketed with +hit (And a food buff of course) to be capped.
Depending on what changes, hit rating will be the 5-man threat stat of choice since a resisted Thunderclap or Shockwave will suck the proverbial monkey nuts. Beyond that, it will have a lower cap versus level 81/82 mobs so you'll be able to stack Strength a bit sooner than versus level 83 mobs but I don't think that will be an issue or concern for the entry level tank.
The problem with stacking strength versus hit/expertise is that hit/expertise gives you innate threat that exists on all but one of our abilities. It's always worth it to make sure the abilities land first and foremost simply due to that innate threat, and that's not even taking into account the predictability of rage at higher hit/expertise ratings.
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler on why the tiered difficulty content model doesn't work
As I have said a million times, good games (maybe good anything) can’t be designed by popular vote.
There is no scaling like you are talking about in live right now. I was curious if they were going to put it in with 3.0, or wait for WotLK -- I should have been more specific I guess -- I know it's in Beta now, I have been following the news.
To the point about not expecting them to update the tank gear, I do expect them to do that. Otherwise, we will all be tanking in Greens or mostly DPS with enough tank gear to be crit immune. We will not be able to hold aggro very well without any strength on any of our gear. I just really, really hope that they aren't stupid enough to make most green armor better for tanking than Sunwell gear. But even though I would really like to see this gear revamp happen, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't fix it. In some aspects of the game, Blizzard developers just have their heads buried in the sand.
I'm going to agree with Jamesvz here, hit and expertise are still very important threat generation stats. Even more so as you level and it takes more rating to get 1%.
Nothing is really changing from our standard cycle of SS, Rev, Dev x2 in 3.0 from what I can tell. Str does a lot more for your shieldslam damage, but it still takes quite a bit more of it than it does of straight block value to get 1 tps from it. Since we don't really know what it does to tclap yet, it's kind of hard to say just how much it changes your 30 second rotation.
I think I recall seeing Block value has a cost mod of 0.65 in the itemvalue budget, str is 1. When you adjust for itemvalue costs, block value is slightly better in terms of threat to cost benefits with the right talents*. If you're low on expertise, then str is better because the added threat is spread over more attacks (over time BV would pull ahead, but realistically you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket and count on shieldslam if it's not going to land reliably). I'm probably in the minority, but I really would rather not see items like the Pauldrons of Perseverance re-itemized to use str instead of block value. If they're going to use both str and block value, then that'd be ideal, but I doubt they'd do that.
The big thing str does is it makes low rage situations better, it'll generate more rage on your auto attacks when you aren't heroic striking. The primary reason I'd want str on my gear is because stuff isn't going to be hitting me very hard in Sunwell gear. The nice thing about having two stats that are similar in terms of tps value is that you can double-stack them and get around the prohibitive costs of overstacking one stat on an item.
* Shieldslam gets several very big multipliers on day 1 of v3.0, by my math you can get up to an aggregate multiplier of 1.65 to your shieldslam damage. You have shieldmastery (30%), Imp Shieldbash (10%), 1h spec (effectively canceling out def stance), 4pcT6 (10%), and the metagem (reduced to 5% in 3.0). It takes 2 str to get 1 BV (vitality reduces that a bit to 1.82 str to 1 BV), so str has to provide considerably more threat to devastate and auto/heroic strike in order to compensate.
I think I recall seeing Block value has a cost mod of 0.65 in the itemvalue budget, str is 1. When you adjust for itemvalue costs, block value is slightly better in terms of threat to cost benefits with the right talents*.
* Shieldslam gets several very big multipliers on day 1 of v3.0, by my math you can get up to an aggregate multiplier of 1.65 to your shieldslam damage. You have shieldmastery (30%), Imp Shieldbash (10%), 1h spec (effectively canceling out def stance), 4pcT6 (10%), and the metagem (reduced to 5% in 3.0). It takes 2 str to get 1 BV (vitality reduces that a bit to 1.82 str to 1 BV), so str has to provide considerably more threat to devastate and auto/heroic strike in order to compensate.
I was just proving this for myself, so I thought I'd list my findings. If we take 1.653 STR (assuming Kings and Vitality making it 2) gives 1 BV, then the equivalent itemization cost would allow 2.543 BV. The question then is whether the TPS from 1.543 BV is greater than that from 2 STR.
The multipliers listed for Shield Slam without 1H spec give 1.652, so 2.549 damage will be added to Shield Slam from 1.543 BV. Shield slams can occur every 6 seconds so 2.549 / 6 = 0.425 DPS added without counting crits etc. Without 4-piece T6 the modifier is 1.502, adding 0.386 DPS.
2 STR gives 4 AP, or 0.286 DPS on autoattacks. If we Devastate twice per rotation, that's the equivalent of one extra normalized swing (2 * 50% weapon damage) every 6 seconds, so 2.4 * 4 / 14 / 6 = 0.114 DPS added for a total of 0.4 DPS.
My values are rounded to 3 decimal places, but if they're right it looks like as soon as the 4 piece bonus is broken then STR is the better threat stat. Until then BV has only a very slight advantage and the extra rage gained from autoattacks and smaller blocks may outweigh that benefit. That said, Thunderclap and Shockwave in large pulls will probably pull the results STR's way, and Sword and Board procs will go in BV's direction.
Last edited by jamesw96 : 08/28/08 at 6:58 PM.
Reason: Correcting results to 3dp
I was just proving this for myself, so I thought I'd list my findings. If we take 1.65 STR (assuming Kings and Vitality making it 2) gives 1BV, then the equivalent itemization cost would allow 2.5 BV. The question then is whether the TPS from 1.5 BV is greater than that from 2 STR.
The multipliers listed for Shield Slam without 1H spec give 1.652, so 2.478 damage will be added to Shield Slam from 1.5 BV. Shield slams can occur every 6 seconds so 2.478 / 6 = 0.413 DPS added without counting crits etc. Without 4-piece T6 the modifier is 1.502, adding 0.376 DPS.
2 STR gives 4 AP, or 0.286 DPS on autoattacks. If we Devastate twice per rotation, that's the equivalent of one extra normalized swing (2 * 50% weapon damage) every 6 seconds, so 2.4 * 4 / 14 / 6 = 0.114 DPS added for a total of 0.4 DPS.
My values are rounded to 3dp, but if they're right it looks like as soon as the 4 piece bonus is broken then STR is the better threat stat. Until then BV has only a very slight advantage and the extra rage gained from autoattacks and smaller blocks may outweigh that benefit. That said, Thunderclap and Shockwave in large pulls will probably pull the results STR's way, and Sword and Board procs will go in BV's direction.
That's a good point, I didn't include Kings in my math because I wasn't sure if you'd have it in a 5 man. In a raid str starts to pull away. Once we're in Naxx we'll want str and BV in equal parts on our gear.
Between the sockets and enchants in T6, I don't think you'll be replacing the sunwell pieces (belt, boots, bracers) with blues until 80 or possibly beyond. I haven't seen a single drop on my DK on beta that made me think it was better than what my warrior is wearing (and wowhead doesn't list very many upgrades to sunwell gear). Sticking with the 4pc + some dps/str gear for the early instances seems like the way to go, especially when you factor in how the multipliers stack.
I have been using a mod called "Demon" which is an updated version of pDebuffList to track Demo Shout and Thunderclap status on mobs.
Demon creates a small black box with 2 sets of letters in red.
"TC"
"DS"
When Demo or Tclap are applied to the mob by ANY warrior, those letters turn green. The second the debuff drops off the letters turn red again.
This allows you to manage Warrior debuffs.
It also dynamically determines ATK PWR debuffs. So if CoW or Druid Roar are applied the "DS" Letters change to "CoW" etc. and turn green as appropriate based on the most powerful debuff active.
For Raid leaders you can use this to add Scorpid Sting, Faerie Fire, CoR, Insect Swarm etc. Pretty much any debuff you can imagine can have a red/green set of letters.
I'm a fan of just using Elk Buff Bars and filtering out what I want to see. You can sort/filter any type of debuff/buff watching with it. You can make it any size too. Not to mention it takes like 10 seconds to do.
I track demo/sunder/clap in one frame, BS/CS/Rampage in another, Ironshield/Ancestral Grace/Inspiration in a third and then general raid debuffs in another. I have a couple other frames set up for various PvP abilities that are important to be aware of.
Elk buff bars is indeed good for this, though I personally prefer Debuff Filter because I like the timers more.
I don't think there is any mod that tracks debuff timers from other players.
I've been wondering what approach to take for regemming avoidance for sunwell. My guild downed Illidan last week, and we're moving into sunwell next week. Currently I have an avoidance set that's mostly the same as my normal set that I'm logged in on armory, except I wear t6 gloves (15 agi 10 dodge) and pocketwatch. I have a few more upgrades to go from BT/Hyjal (t6 chest, faceplate, and shadowmoon insignia), but in my avoidance set I run about 29% dodge, 20.5% parry, and 13% miss.
I've read that some tanks socket for socket bonuses using 10 defense, 10 dodge, 15 stam, and maybe 5 agi 7 stam gems; and I've also seen some tanks that have pieces gemmed with straight avoidance (dodge/defense) and others with straight stamina. On the other end of the spectrum, I see tanks with all stam gems still.
Do you completely overhaul your gear for sunwell, or did you just change a few gems in pieces with good socket bonuses? I'm leaning towards just regemming a few pieces, but I'd figure I'd ask to be sure before I waste a bunch of gems.
Also, I thought about picking up the badge chest for tanking, but it doesn't look like a huge upgrade to t6 (which I will most likely be getting soon), especially since I need another t6 piece for the 4 piece bonus. Am I wrong here?
And I use PowerAuras for keeping track of demo/thunderclap. It has a really big graphic that's hard to miss, which is nice when you're in the middle of tanking and you can't be assed to look for a little bar or debuff icon.
Losing avoidance to Sunwell Radiance actually makes gearing for avoidance worse, not better. The more avoidance you have, the more effective it is. For that reason I never used many avoidance gems/enchants on pieces that I wear for almost every encounter in SWP.
That said, some encounters simply favor going for avoidance, like Brutallus.
Losing avoidance to Sunwell Radiance actually makes gearing for avoidance worse, not better. The more avoidance you have, the more effective it is. For that reason I never used many avoidance gems/enchants on pieces that I wear for almost every encounter in SWP.
That said, some encounters simply favor going for avoidance, like Brutallus.
I don't quite understand how you'd come to that conclusion. Gemming stamina doesn't help that much when the bosses hit as hard as they do in sunwell, but gaining more avoidance when you're already low on avoidance will help. Going from 23k buffed to 22k buffed and gaining 5-6% more avoidance seems like a very favorable tradeoff, especially since 1k hp is hardly going to matter when you're taking 5-7k hits regularly.
Regarding Shield Slam values - if the Improved Defensive Stance goes live that's another 10% modifier to the damage as it's pretty safe to assume we will Parry/Dodge/Block at least 1 attack every 12 seconds thus maintaining the Enrage.
So 1.82 total which is impressive.
I don't quite understand how you'd come to that conclusion. Gemming stamina doesn't help that much when the bosses hit as hard as they do in sunwell, but gaining more avoidance when you're already low on avoidance will help. Going from 23k buffed to 22k buffed and gaining 5-6% more avoidance seems like a very favorable tradeoff, especially since 1k hp is hardly going to matter when you're taking 5-7k hits regularly.
1k hp still matters a whole lot in SWP. I usually take any trade-off that is better than 1 stamina per 1 dodge rating for 'generic' tank gear, but they are rare. At that rate you would get ~4.6% avoidance for 1k hp, less for tauren. The trade-off you suggest basically doesn't exist.
Dots, there are a number of fights in sunwell, where the tanks chances for survival are roughly equal to never getting hit 3 or 4 times in a row. Because there is no possibility of gaining enough stamina for these worst case scenarios, the favoured way of many tanks is to diminish the chance of such a scenario occurring. This is not really different from BT/MH at all, just more pronounced, as the bosses hit that much harder.
Of course there are bosses where the worst cases occur simply because they ignore avoidance, like Sathrovarr, or Sacrolash after a confounding blow. But for Brutallus, Felmyst with corrosion and especially Void Sentinels/Entropius, you cannot eat too many consecutive hits or you will die. The DPS requirements limit the number of healers on you and this in turn favours avoidance, regardless of sunwell radiance.
08/27/08, 11:12 AM
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