Jabez

Lets look at this from a mathematical perspective shall we

For simplicity we assign each skill a round number of threat, based on proved numbers and we assume entry level gear:
Shield slam = 800 (with a 400 hit)
Revenge = 400 (with a 350 hit)
Devastate = 300 (with a 200 hit)

10 GCD rotation, since we know Sword and Board resets Shield Slam cooldown

Rotation one, no Sword and Board:

Shield Slam-Revenge-Devastate-Devastate-Shield Slam-Revenge-Devastate-Devastate-Shield Slam-revenge

This rotation provides us with 4800 threat, and we have spent 90 rage(assuming 2pt Puncture)

Rotation two, Sword and Board and we get one -1- procs:

Shield Slam-Revenge-Devastate **Sword and Board procs ** -Shield Slam-Devastate-revenge-Devastate-Devastate-Shield Slam-Revenge


This rotation also provides us with 4800 threat, , and in the end the rotation is back to standard. We spent a total of 82 rage on this rotation

Rotation three, Sword and Board and we get two -2- procs:

Shield Slam-Revenge-Devastate ** Sword and Board procs ** -Shield Slam-Devastate ** Sword and Board procs ** -Shield Slam-Revenge-Devastate-Devastate-Shield Slam

This rotation provides us with 5200 threat, and we spent 78 rage on this rotation

Rotation four, Sword and Board and we get three -3- procs, plus Sword and Board crashes with the original cooldown:

Shield Slam-Revenge-Devastate-Devastate ** Sword and Board procs ** -Shield Slam-Revenge-Devastate ** Sword and Board procs ** -Shield Slam-Devastate ** Sword and Board procs ** Shield Slam

This rotation provides 5200 threat, and we spent 61 rage on this rotation. Note that the first Sword and Board collided with the original cooldown of Shield Slam

Rotation five, Sword and Board and we get three -3- procs, no collision

Shield Slam-revenge-Devastate ** Sword and Board procs ** -Shield Slam-Devastate ** Sword and Board procs ** -Shield Slam-Revenge-Devastate ** Sword and Board procs ** -Shield slam-Devastate


This rotation provides 5200 threat, and we spent 61 rage on this roation

As you can see from this scenario, two procs on Sword and Board over the course of 2 and a half rotations is worth 400 threat, and roughly 1x+ excess rage. More than two procs will not deliver more threat, but it will roughly double your excess rage. Also keep in mind that these values are low, and that all above abilities can crit. A Shield Slam crit under these circumstances is worth relatively 400 more threat than a devastate crit, and 100 more than a revenge crit(not surprising since Revenge as it stands doesn't scale very well and takes it threat from damage)

My conclusion as an endgame tank, is that this talent is definitely worth the 5 points. Even if the threat gain isn't very high, its enough to take it. Also keep in mind that over the course of 15 seconds, and you have procs, you will have anything from 2-3x excess rage to spend on other things. This will make life easier for offtanks needing to build threat, and it will add burst threat and extra reliability for Tanks overgearing instances. Also remember that Beta Testing and the new Str->block conversion values have shown that your Shield Slams will be hitting for far more than they do today, and therefore Shield Slam will have higher threat values compared to innate based threat skills.

Edit: Post written while the plea to move the discussion was written. If you wish to comment on this post, please do so in the WOTLK thread and we can continue the discussion there

 

Riot

All this stuff about needing avoidance in Sunwell has been something that's bothered me since you theorycrafted it Xav, so it's ironic that people have taken your posts so seriously.

The World of Warcraft Armory

This is my Protection Warrior. I'm not a Tauren. This is the gear I tank Sunwell in all the time mostly. At most I swap out my ranged, my trinket slots, and a ring. Nothing else.

Healing me from Kalecgos to M'uru has not once ever been an issue. Is it so very hard for healers to time their heals right after a stomp?

What's more important to remember is to adjust to what your raid needs you to do. If your healers can't master the requisite timing issues on heals, then okay, maybe avoidance is the way to go.

Some of the examples mentioned here are somewhat egregious - if you need to survive an Enraged Kalecgos/Sathrovarr for extended periods of time, you really are doing it wrong. Likewise, If your tanks are dying during Corrosion, your healers need to engage in some coherent healing strategy.

Avoidance isn't necessary in the slightest.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

Dots

Nobody said it is necessary, it just makes things easier by giving more room for error, depending on encounter of course.

That said, I find your +hit gems in many slots quite questionable, especially the gloves are just not meant to be a threat piece. Gauntlets of Enforcement are still best at that.

 

Liar

Were you meant to be in threat gear when you asked us to check your Armory or am I just looking at it at a wrong time? Because if you were, then the point is fairly moot because I really doubt anyone learned Kalec or Brut in their threat set. If you can do them in your threat set, you can do them in either your stamina or avoidance gear because your healers and yourself have enough experience to make even slightly worse gear choices work.

Maybe. Maybe not. I gear to help out my healers as much as I can so I am not just going to stubbornly use my stamina gear because I think my healers should keep me up when I can just wear my avoidance gear and help them out while doing it. It's our job as much as theirs to stay alive and gearing for it is part of that.

Your whole post reads like "My healers can trivialize every lethal move a boss can throw at me, so I will gear with a stamina suit". Sure, if it works for you, do that. I am of the opinion that a tank should work with their healers and if avoidance works better with your healers, then go for that.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Riot

But that's not my argument regarding avoidance. My approach to Sunwell at this point is that a balanced gearset is my preferred method of choosing my gear selection. Gemming for stamina isn't a move borne out of stubbornness, it's a decision I made after thinking about each boss in Sunwell.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

Riot

Interesting. Let's discuss where my hit gems are socketed and why.

I have Rigid Lionseyes socketed in my Shoulders, Ranged Slot, Legs, and Gloves. When I swap out my gear from this kit to put in different trinkets such as the Commendation or Pocket Watch, at all times I still have 4% hit. Again, my goal was to have a more balanced suit that could strike a balance between survival and threat generation.

Let's discuss Borderland Fortress Grips vs. Gauntlets of Enforcement. When looking between the two, the stats that jump out most at me are the two sockets available on the BFG vs. the Expertise and SBV on the Gauntlets of Enforcement.

With expertise being so easy to obtain in Sunwell, and most tanks reaching over 10% parry/dodge reduction pretty easily using Sunwell gear, I eliminated factoring in the Expertise on the Gauntlets. So for me, it's do I want slightly more hit/avoidance vs. Shield Block Value?

I chose the Borderland Fortress Grips and retired my Gauntlets of Enforcement at that point.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

Dots

I just don't think those 4% hit is needed most of the time. It is a threat stat, nothing else. On most bosses in SWP, it is just not necessary to wear much threat gear, if any at all. So I rather go for better survivability to give more room for error.

Trash is completely different of course, I wear a lot of older +hit gear for that and also Gauntlets of Enforcement with +threat enchant instead of BFG.

 

Xav

I read your post a few times and can't even remotely begin to understand what made you write this.

Never have I written that avoidance is necessary everywhere in sunwell. All I have said is Brutallus is the epitome of an avoidance fight. It is. Pretty much everyone agrees on this.

Infact, my most recent posts on this subject also regurgitated that. Here, I'll say it again, even more brief:

Kalecgos: Stam
Brutallus: Avoidance
Felmyst: Stam
M'uru-non-adds: Stam
M'uru-adds: Whatever
Kil'jaeden: Whatever

Noone has ever said a certain gearing style is essential. Your reaction and apparently being offended is completely unnecessary.

Yes, you can faceroll through just about any fight if your raid is good enough, healers are good enough, your group is good enough, to make up for not wearing any special gear for anything. I don't wear avoidance for all of Sunwell. Avoidance is by far my LEAST used set, for obvious reasons I've stated many times.

Anything else left to cover here?

Edit: I wasn't going to mention your own, in my opinion, terrible, gearing choices, but a few people have already noted it.

 

Riot

My mention of you Xav was that you were by far the biggest supporter of Avoidance back in the day, not only here but in the BB.

I'm just annoyed regarding the general consensus of many Warriors I see who gem with and for avoidance to the brim but don't understand it's not always actually optimal.

Apologies, I was posting at the same time I was ranting about the crappy WOTLK Protection changes being thrown around.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

Fellwraith

Personally, I think you're completely crazy if you think stamina is the way to go for Brut as anything but a tauren. If I compare our WWS parses, you're taking 20-35% or more damage than me (600-1300 more dtps). Our raid comps are different, but you're doing less dps than me, so I doubt there's a significant threat advantage to gearing they way you do for this particular fight. The single point of failure on this fight is taking multiple consecutive hits that can't be healed through. Maybe your healers can compensate for you getting hit a lot more, but that's really not optimal for this particular fight.

As Xav said, avoidance isn't optimal in a lot of fights. It isn't an RNG defense if you're looking at the compound probability of getting hit multiple times in succession. Four hits to die on Brut vs 2 hits to die on Felmyst are two very different scenarios and your gear choices should reflect that.

Personally I'm going to gem/enchant pieces that are heavy on avoidance with more avoidance and play toward their strengths. I definitely will not use a lot of those pieces on a lot of fights. Just because you see someone wearing a gear load-out on armory or in Shatt doesn't necessarily mean they use it all the time.

 

ioguolo

I agree with Liar that tanks should be working just as hard to help the healers as the healers should work towards healing strats to keep the tank alive. If some tanks are blessed with healers that can make them get through any content so be it, but at the same time I can't see not trying to take the least damage as possible without causing a raid threat cap. I'm debating on regemming for Sunwell myself. The last 2 weeks have not gone so well and I feel in my raids situation more avoidance would help.

Maybe other tanks could say what they do, but IMO I would favor avoidance in learning content where threat isn't too much of an issue because of learning positions/and the fight. Do some of you more experienced tanks see avoidance as "initially in Sunwell" helpful stat (as in no Sunwell gear)? My current Kalegos set is 33 Expertise and avoidance the rest with the 4 piece T6 bonus + block gem. I have every piece available from Hyjal/BT/badges minus a T5/T6 shield. Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

Xav

Stamina is pretty much always better for learning stuff, except Brutallus. Max stamina, so you live as long as possible, can see the burst, know how much you need to live through the burst, and adjust as necessary.

 

Riot

Point of interest: Which parses have you been looking at, Mulack? Are you doing custom combat log splits? SC's latest Brut kills have been to the hilt, because I've been bringing in loot sponges. So I'm not sure if your numbers are completely correct.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

ioguolo

I'll try it out this coming Monday when we hit up Sunwell. I know right now I'm having a survivability issue compared to our druid (from the topic talk of last week or 2). I've been stacking stam/armor but on Mother I get hit for 8100 average. And our druid is on average 6600. We have roughly the same avoidance and even with our 1 fight I tanked being a faster kill, I took way more overall damage. I was pretty dissappointed. This was the reason in my situation I was looking at more avoidance. Just to help my healers out since my threat wasn't too much an issue.

 

Xav

8100 average hit on mother = not spamming SB, not using Ironshield, not putting up Imp. Demo, and probably not getting Devotion Aura.

Try harder before you make posts like this, again.

 

Fellwraith

They're similar kill durations, my guild is in a similar position bringing in new people for loot. I was also comparing the damage taken per second, so fight duration shouldn't matter too much (unless I'm thinking about that wrong). Neither of us had burn in the parses I was looking at. Here's a couple parses from us if you want to look at them (2 weeks ago and three weeks ago). I'm taking about 3200-3400 damage per second, you're taking upwards of 4500 dps in the 8/20 kill and 8/12 kill.

Brut attacks every 1.2 seconds with a MH + OH combo. During stomp, MH hits for ~10k, OH hits for ~4k. To survive getting hit by all 4, you would need 28k health. Realistically you'll have HoTs up which may tic during that or you may get healed inbetween strikes. 1.2 seconds is not a lot of time, so it's kind of hard to say exactly who's going to land their heals in that window, but it's safe to assume you'll get at least one in there with 4-5 healers bombing heals on you. On average a big heal will hit for about 6k non-crit.

With a base casting time of 2-2.5 seconds on the bigger heals, you're only going to get one heal every other MH + OH attack from each healer. If you don't have at least 2 healers hitting you between each attack series, you're going to die if you don't avoid one attack or get a crit from whichever healer hits you. What happens if you end up with one healer hitting you on one attack series and 3 hitting you on the next? You have to find a way to survive long enough to get to the 3 healer combo landing their heals on you. Factor in latency, differing casting speeds (from haste and class talents), and you're asking for trouble if you put this solely on your healers.

With the 61% effective avoidance I have in this fight, the compound probably of all 4 attacks landing is 2%. When my pocketwatch is up every other stomp, it's 0.3%. When my pocketwatch isn't up, I use an additional HP buffer to buy time in case I end up with a 3 healer/1healer scenario. If my healers have their act together and keep me topped off before stomp, the odds of me dying are astronomically low, regardless of how they stagger their heals.

 

Riot

Yeah, you can't use the 8/12 or 8/20 parses as a good point of reference, Mulack. I wasn't in similar gear for either (as you) in either. I specifically was testing one in my threat suit, and in another one I definitely did not have my Commendation on.

Anyway, just looking at this parse, Wow Web Stats is the one that stands out in my mind because it was right before I left for my sister's wedding. I don't think there's any real notable differences if you compare this parse to one of yours, and my gear then and now were mostly the same.

Also, I tend to let Thunderclap fall off...a lot! (I'm pretty terrible, really). So that may be another point to track in parses.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

Legaia

I know there is a lot of discussion going on about the new wrath talents at the moment in the thread, but I was hoping I could get some help with a question regarding the current live situation.

Earlier tonight I was dicussing cleave versus heroic strike with a warrior guild mate of mine and we weren't particullary able to settle on the following question: "Which is better threat per rage wise when dealing with two targets, a single cleave on two targets or one heroic strike on each target respectively?" So this is strictly a question of which is more efficient rage wise if the time is up hands to wait for two weapons swings to both use heroic strike on.

We used the warrior in question of course being protection, having defiance and focused rage and a normal weapon swing generating 5 rage, but would consider two different situations, with or without 3/3 improved heroic strike.

Now as I'm interested in theorycrafting myself I did some maths using the following givens:
Cleaves does weapon damage +70 to both targets and has an inherrent threat value of 130 which is split across the two targets costing 17 rage.
Heroic strike does weapon damage +176 to a single target and has an inherrent threat value of 196 costing 12 rage (or 9 rage with improved heroic strike).

This would lead me to the following calculations (with X being the damage the weapon deals):
Threat per target of cleave would be (X+70+65)1.495 divided by the rage cost of 12 (because the cleave effectively only costs 12 rage compared to using heroic strike twice).
Threat per target of heroic strike would be (X+196+176)1.495 divided by the rage cost of 24 (or 18 in the case of 3/3 improved heroic strike).

Equaling these 2 givens and solving them to X gave me: X=102 without improved heroic strike and X=339 with improved heroic strike. So am I right to conclude from these numbers that using cleave is indeed more rage efficient if your weapon damage surpasses 102 or 339 respectively? If I made any mistakes please point them out and thank you in advance.

EDIT: actually, it was rather silly of me to forget that the X factor which I included as weapon damage also affects the rage generated by the weapon swing, so these calculations are incorrect.

EDIT2: With adding in the exact amount of rage gained through the normal hit one can do after using cleave instead of using heroic strike twice I came to the values of X=123.32 and X=297.67 respectively.

 

Borodin

Legaia,

Is this argument assuming that before doing any Heroic Strikes or Cleaves rage is being expended on instant threat moves like SS, Revenge or Dev? i.e. are we talking about dumping excess rage here?
Common sense tells me to simply Cleave vs 2 targets to dump excess rage, I'd be target switching to deliver instant threats but not HS.

Anyway I think you missed something: the actual threat delivered by the white swing you get after the Cleave in the same timeframe.

Discounting Improved HS for now....

I plugged your value of 123.32 damage for your normal swing in and get:

Cleave + White Swing, Rage Cost 17 with your 5 Rage returned on the white = net 12 Rage expended over 2 swings.
123.32+70+65 x 1.495 x 2 = 772.3768 threat for the cleave
123.32 x 1.495 = 184.3634 threat for the white swing
956.7402 Total Threat / 12 Rage = 79.72835 Threat Per Rage in 2 swings

Heroic Strike x 2 (non-Improved), Rage Cost 24 expended over 2 swings
123.32+196+176 x 1.495 x 2 = 1481.0006 Total Threat
1481.0006 / 24 Rage = 61.7084 Threat Per Rage in 2 swings

2xHS is not even close. Even if 5 rage returned for the white swing was too high, unless the white swing generates only 1 rage (ie the Cleave option has a net cost of 16) the TPR for Cleave + White > TPR for 2 x HS

So I think you forgot to factor in the threat from the white swing?

As I am sure you appreciate as you increase X (swing damage) both the threat from the white swing and the rage it returns increases.

 

Legaia

Ah yes thank you, I indeed forgot to factor in the threat of the white hit on the cleave's threat. I was just speaking of a theoretical situation where one only had the option to either cleave or HS and not do anything else (for whatever reason). These situations are probably rare but nonetheless one can calculate things for them. When I redid my maths I factored in the rage generated by the white swing by using the formula for rage generation and substraction this of the value of 17 rage for a cleave. Equalised both formulas for calculating the threat per rage and solved them to X. If one factors in the white swing's threat, the value of X for when Cleave becomes better is only going to be lower.

PS: When I'm generally tanking I use cleave over HS aswell and just switch targets for SS, rev and dev.

EDIT: To clarify, a situation where this would be usefull is indeed a situation where one has enough rage for all the instants and has enough excessive rage to either use 2x HS or a single cleave.

 

suicuique

Have you seen the changes in tank itemisation (Tier Sets and not set pieces) as posted e.g. by MMO-Champion?

While I certainly do appreciate the upcoming changes to the tanking mechanics (AP, STR, less avoidance in general) the pure loss of avoidance is nontrivial.
A quick glance on my Brutallus set (2nd tank, pure avoidance usually: T6 Chest/Waist/Wrist/Boots, BFG hands, Abyssal Fury Shoulders, Illidan head and Felstrength Legplates) tells me I'd lose something like -84 dodge, -40 Agi, - 14 parry
and gain 250 STR.
From an avoidance/mitigation perspective that would be trading ca 6-7% avoidance for 125 additional block.

While I'm certain that will not make us not clear SW, I'm pretty sure the damage spikes on something like Brutallus just became a lot more difficult to deal with. Yes, I read the upper posts regarding avoidance and how it is not "necessary". This does not change my impression that some bosses in Sunwell might be a different beast then. Especially for guilds who are struggling to beat them now.

I hope this is not too OT, but since it does not cover WotLK Talents specifically I thought this would be the better thread to ask.

 

Fellwraith

Feral druids are also losing a lot of their scaling agi avoidance and crit with the upcoming mechanics changes. There is an increase to base avoidance from their talents and the ability to use weapon procs and consumables. I'm not sure if that fully makes up for their loss or not.

We're gaining some avoidance from the anticipation talent change. It was 20 defense which provided 2.4% pure avoidance, it will be 5% dodge with the new change so we pick up 2.6% avoidance there. The shieldblock changes should make it a bit more valuable for dealing with stomp (doubling your block value during that time + 30% chance for 4x your block value which should be useful against a fast attacking boss like Brut).

Paladins sets were also getting re-itemized if I remember correctly, so they're in a similar situation as us. They are getting some avoidance because of the anticipation change too. None of their new talents increase mitigation or avoidance.

If we really can't do this content because our avoidance is too low, then there's less of a reason to have Sunwell radiance in the zone. All 3 classes are losing some avoidance on their sets, so there should be less of a need to have a zone-wide avoidance reduction to make them function properly.


The bigger issue is that you can't use ironshields throughout each boss fight in the zone because you can only use one potion per combat. The content is tuned assuming that I can do that. That was a pretty critical component of how I dealt with stomp, corrosion, and stuns/disorients.

 

• Goatbert

I thought potion sickness was removed? Can anyone confirm if it is/isn't in right now on Beta?

 

Wildstyle

The loss of avoidance for both Druids and Warriors might be an indication that they willbe removing Sunwell Radiance with 3.0. It would make sense as of 3.0 it will be "old" content, and it would make it somewhat easier for guilds who are struggling.

 

Liar

It doesn't help for guilds on M'uru (and I assume KJ) since it's already lifted there. My assumption is that they might not patch in the reitimized gear until Wrath actually because if they do it with 3.0 then they either kill raiding or they need to retune the raid instances.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.