Taliafears

Can anybody point me to innate threat values obtained from the PTR? I'm guessing devastate got its innate threat taken away in light of its huge dps increase. With all the damage buffs across the board I wouldn't be surprised if other abilities had their innate threat reduced as well.

 

Graul

Warrior WoW 3.0 Threat Values - TankSpot

Also:

 

Satrina

I was all happy about that, but then realised the 207 is just the 2 threat we already get in 2.0, transposed to the value scheme we get reported by the UI threat functions.

Edit: And you only get it if you have Improved Defensive Stance.

 

• Jamor

So one topic that has been on my mind for a bit, and one that I am holding off judgment on, at least until 3.0 comes out, is professions for WoTLK.

What are you all thinking about far as professions go, especially people that are planning on changing?


Currently I am an enchanter and a 350ish LW, and I am starting to look at which direction I should think about heading. Currently, BS with the extra gem slots looks very strong, and in theory, should have great synergy with a plate wearing tank. But the relative worth of the profession in the TBC was pretty low overall, especially for end game tanks. A lot of that had to do with the unpolished nature of the Nether Vortexs, but there was never really a time where I felt like I needed BS to progress. Obviously the free sockets are going to change that a great deal. It's clearly better than enchanting at this point. You can pick which gems to use, instead of being forced to take +stam on two rings, and you get more slots. But overall, blacksmithing as a money maker seems pretty poor. At least enchanting has some potential there.

I had initially planned on dropping LW when they nerfed the drums, but then seeing the 90 stam bracer enchant caused me to pause for a second. At this point, I am leaning towards going BS / LW, but I wanted to hear what some of you all are thinking as well.

 

Fellwraith

Inscription looks like the strongest second profession to me, especially since many of the glyphs appear to have a pretty big tanking benefit. You can convert one of your minor glyphs into a major glyph with the profession. Minor glyphs are typically cosmetic differences (your sheep are penguins, etc.), major glyphs are things like 10% more shieldslam damage, 8 target tclap, etc. They fundamentally change how your class plays, which is more important to me than a relatively small stat boost.

 

Uglesh

Glyph of Battle - Increases the duration of your Battle Shout ability by 1 min.
Glyph of Bloodrage - Reduces the health cost of your Bloodrage ability by 50%.
Glyph of Charge - Increases the range of your Charge ability by 5 yards.
Glyph of Thunder Clap - Increases the radius of your Thunder Clap ability by 2 yards.
Glyph of Mocking Blow - Increases the damage of your Mocking Blow ability by 25%.
Glyph of Enduring Victory - Increases the window of opportunity in which you can use Victory Rush by 5 sec.
Glyph of Taunt - Increases the chance for your Taunt ability to succeed by 8%.
Glyph of Rapid Charge - Reduces the cooldown of your Charge ability by 20%.
Glyph of Resonating Power - Increases the maximum targets affected by your Thunder Clap ability by 4.
Glyph of Heroic Strike - You gain 10 rage when you critically strike with your Heroic Strike ability.
Glyph of Revenge - After using Revenge, your next Heroic Strike costs no rage.
Glyph of Barbaric Insults - Your Mocking Blow ability also taunts the target.
Glyph of Cleaving - Reduces the rage cost of Cleave by 5.
Glyph of Execution - Your Execute ability deals damage as if you had 10 additional rage.
Glyph of Mortal Strike - Increases the damage of your Mortal Strike ability by 10% but the healing penalty is reduced by half.
Glyph of Bloodthirst - Increases the healing you receive from your Bloodthirst ability by 20%.
Glyph of Whirlwind - Increases the number of targets you Whirlwind ability hits by 1.
Glyph of Hamstring - Gives your Hamstring ability a 10% chance to immobilize the target for 5 sec.
Glyph of Blocking - Increases your block value by 10% for 10 sec after using your Shield Slam ability.
Glyph of Intervene - Increases the number attacks you intercept for your Intervene target by 1.
Glyph of Victory Rush - Your Victory Rush ability has a 30% increased critical strike chance against targets above 90% health.
Glyph of Sweeping Strikes - You generate 30 rage over 12 sec when you use your Sweeping Strikes ability.
Glyph of Rending - Increases the duration of your Rend ability by 3 sec.
Glyph of Overpower - Adds a 50% chance to enable your Overpower when your attacks are parried.
Glyph of Sunder Armor - Your Sunder Armor ability affects a second nearby target.
Glyph of Devastate - Your Devastate ability now applies two stacks of Sunder Armor.

Now I'm not sure how many of these will make it live, but having an extra one is a HUGE advantage in my eyes. I highlighted the ones most of interest to tanking.

 

Danin

You forgot to highlight Resonating Power which is arguably the second or third most powerful glyph for tanking (situational obviously).

 

Branar

I think it could ultimately go either way.

1) Shield Slam increases block value by 10% for 10s
2) +8% hit to taunt
3) +4 targets on Thunderclap

Those are really the best three from the list above, but even there I think a lot of fights don't demand all three.

Just as an example, looking at Sunwell bosses, you'd want the 8% to-hit with Taunt glyph for Kalec and Brutallus - but you don't care about the Thunderclap glyph on those fights. When you get to Felmyst you could swap out the 8% taunt glyph for a Thunderclap glyph for helping to AOE tank skeletons. For Twins both 8% taunt and Thunderclap are pretty worthless, so maybe you socket in the rage gain glyphs (heroic strike/revenge/etc) or, heck, just leave your previous glyphs in there. Etc.

Dunno, it seems to me that we don't really have enough information about Inscription to make a final say yet. But the fact that glyphs are 'consumables' and most are situationally useful seems to make it very hard to balance, to me. Either you'll end up with 4+ major glyphs that are a must in almost every situation (e.g. that 10% BV on shield slam glyph) and Inscription will be absurdly powerful to keep as a profession....or there will really be only three "awesome" glyphs for a given situation, and it becomes nothing more than a cash-saving device that prevents you from having to re-socket your glyphs every other boss fight.


Hopefully the end result at a nice balancing point in between, where there are 2 or 3 "awesome" glyphs for a given fight, and then one or two 'nice' glyphs that are just sort of generally useful in the same way that additional stats or better leg armor is generally useful.

 

Muggins

Just to add a little information. At the moment you can only add new glyphs onto your 'Glyphbook' at a Lexicon of Power, which is essentially a big glowing book at the inscription trainer in a capital city. You can't change your glyphs around in the field.

Finally, looking at information from the profession thread here at EJ it seems as though the 'extra glyph' may have been removed as a inscription profession perk and replaced with an improved type of shoulder enchant.

 

• Jamor

I thought I read somewhere that spell +hit cap is now also 9% -- which would reduce the relative value slightly. If that's the case, it really depends on how much +hit you have on your gear.

 

Stolidus

No, that was some confusion arising from enhancement shaman testing, who get a whole bunch of hit% in their talents, which they didn't realize applied to spells as well in the beta.

Actually, the 8% is exactly what it needs to be: 17% (which has always been the resist rate, but is now able to be fully mitigated, not just 16%) - 8%= 9% the melee hit cap.

Basically, taunt with that glyph will miss at the same rate as your melee attacks, which is clean, makes sense, and lets you achieve unresistable taunts with no wasted itemization.

 

• Jamor

ok, well that makes a lot more sense to me as well.

 

Riot

Prelim discussion on must have glyphs for tanking:

Assuming you're not a Scribe and have only three major Glyphs accessible to you, I think you'd want:

Glyph of Blocking
Glyph of Heroic Strike

Final Glyph: Resonating Power? Revenge? Taunt? Last Stand?

Why the first two?

Being able to maintain 10% more block value to shield slam indefinitely seems like it'll be very strong. Likewise, being refunded Rage every time you crit a Heroic Strike, given how much Heroic Strike is used seems like a no-brainer. The Sunder Armor Glyph is nice but is totally overshadowed by the power of TClap and Shockwave - likewise the Devastate Glyph is nice but provides only a small minor bonus at the start of pulls. The Last Stand Glyph looks sort of interesting, actually.

Baseline Tank Specs: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

15 points remaining, seems to bit of customizing available. I've left a lot of points unfilled because I know some people don't like Warbringer/Vigilance (while I think they're worth dumping one point into both).

I think AttT is a good talent, but it's a rather static bonus since Armor doesn't tend to increase by much - example: How much did our armor go by up from T4 to T6? A few thousand points? Less? I can't recall, but if you assume that you're going to go from 4K armor from T7 to say T10, that's still only 30 strength, which is 60 ap, yeah?

So it's a good talent to have, but not great, which is why it's not a "baseline".

Other thoughts? I wanted to put stuff down before I hopped out to start errands.

Overslept, / So tired. / If late, / Get fired. / Why bother? / Why the pain? / Just go home / Do it again. - The Commuter's Lament
Norman B. Colp

 

Fellwraith

Blocking seems to be the best glyph for a tanking spec. Not only does it affect your shieldslam (and all the multiplicative benefits that affect it), but it also affects your damage shield ability.

The heroic strike glyph looks good on paper, but it's only a 10 * crit rate discount off the cost of your heroic strikes. At best it will be about 3-3.5 rage less per HS. Remember tank gear doesn't have agi or crit anymore, I doubt you'll push 35% crit with HS in tank gear (even with incite) - especially when almost all your discretionary spots are going to be spent on defense rating or resilience to be uncrittable.

Depending on how often you can get revenge to proc, the revenge glyph is a similar benefit (HS for free after a revenge) and it's better in lower rage situations because it doesn't have the front-end cost. The heroic strike glyph is great if you're an OT who will be going DW devastate from time to time, but it's only ok if you're a full-time tank.

All the early instances seem to be tuned with AE threat in mind. I don't think it's a good idea to run 5 man heroics without 8 target thunderclap (particularly places like Ahn'kahet if my non-heroic experience is any guide). Shockwave is good when it's not on cooldown, but you really can't tank the number of mobs you need to tank in some of these instances without it. Unless they do something to improve our ae threat, this glyph is going to be a must-have early on.

If you have vigilance, the taunt glyph isn't really necessary (put vigilance on your target of target as you intervene or taunt, taunt is refreshed - it costs you a gcd). Similarly, the mocking blow glyph isn't all that useful with an 8 second taunt cooldown (the duration of the mocking blow is 6 seconds, by the time your GCD is up from the resisted taunt you mocking blow, when that wears off you taunt again). It's better not to have the taunt resisted in the first place, but you can get around it. Neither of these glyphs are that game-changing when we have 3 effective "taunts".


My armor went from 13k in early blues/Karazhan gear to 20+k in Sunwell. That would be an effective increase in str of 61 with raid buffs (kings and vitality) if AttT existed. I expect the effective increase in armor for Lichking to be much greater than that since armor's mitigation value is based off attacker level and you need considerably more armor at higher levels to get incremental benefits (and progressively higher armor levels means your benefit from the talent will be greater). Comparing level 70 values probably isn't going to be a valid baseline.

It's also worth noting that Armored to the teeth is 3x the strength benefit of vitality in 10 man Naxx gear. Vitality may scale a little better when everything is said and done, but the static benefit of those 3 talent points in AttT is huge in the early tiers of gear (and it's not like you can't respec later).

 

• Jamor

Before I address the previous posts, I wanted to note that as of now, it sounds like Scribes do not get the extra Major Glyph slot. Which means that as a profession, it's not that great. Someone did some analysis on the forums about the profs, I'll add at the bottom of my post, this is not my information, I re posted from a guildmate who re posted from the professions forum.

EDIT: Forgot to comment on AttT -- I would have to say that is baseline. Threat + Mitigation = required. It's a very strong talent.
EDIT2: I also don't consider puncture baseline. In fact, I have not taken it in any setups at 70 or 80 at this point.

Next, as far as glyph choices, the shield slam one is a 100% of the time Glyph. Depending on the number of times we need to be taunting in Naxx, I will probably choose between Taunt or revenge -- While the heroic strike glyph looks good on paper, I have a feeling rage is not going to be a serious issue most of the time, and when it is, the revenge glyph will be much more benefit. By adding revenge to your low rage cycle, you not only get devastate type threat you get a free HS out of the deal. The final slot will probably be the 8 target TC glyph. A lot of stuff needs to flesh itself out first, but I have a feeling those 4 glyphs are going to be the main ones I use. I also have a feeling the 8 target TC glyph will be pretty useful, especially doing 10 man content and heroics and will probably be a solid choice most of the time in the early going. I am predicting the taunt glyph to be marginally useful, especially with mocking blow useable in D stance, and the shorter cool down on AE taunt. I am still not sold on Vigilance yet.



Ok, back on to the professions discussion earlier -- depending on what else they implement into blacksmiting (specifically BoP items), and how the added sockets stack with enchants, it certainly has the potential to be pretty strong. But most of them seem pretty equal (with things like JC and BS pulling away later on in the game if BoP patterns and such drop).

EDIT3: Looks like someone started a similar discussion at Tankspot:
General Wrath Professions - A general overview - TankSpot

Summary of Profession Perks:
(This is PVE focused)

Herbalism
- New Ability: Heals for 2000 over 5 Seconds, 3 minute cooldown (Wild Growth (Rank 6))
- Items:
--- Reduces your armor by 100%, but increases your attack power by 400 for 10 sec, 1 Min Cooldown (Fire Leaf)
--- Makes you vulnerable to magic, but increases your spell power by 200 for 10 sec, 1 Min Cooldown (Fire Seed)
--- Absorbs 750 to 1250 damage. Lasts 15 sec, 2 Min Cooldown (Fel Blossom)
Mining
- 500 HP (Toughness (Rank 6))
Skinning
- 25 Crit Rating (Master of Anatomy (Rank 6))

Alchemy
- 50% bonus to flasks (Mixology)
--- Flask bonus = 90 AP or 19 MP5 or 325 HP or 62.5 SP
- 25% bonus to elixirs (Mixology)
--- Elixir bonus (Battle) = 22.5 AP or 14.5 SP or 12.5 STR or 11.25 AGI or 5 stats
---- AND
--- Elixir bonus (Guardian) = 4MP5 or 12.5 Res or 12.5 SPI or 200 AC or 87.5 HP + 5 HP5
- BOP Endless Potions (reusable item, usable in Arenas)
--- Restores 1680 to 2160 health, 3 Min Cooldown (Endless Healing Potion)
--- Restores 400 to 600 mana, 3 Min Cooldown (Endless Mana Potion)
--- Restores 1680 to 2160 health and 400 to 600 mana, 3 Min Cooldown (Endless Rejuvenation Potion)
- BOP Trinkets with 40% bonus to potion effectiveness
Enchanting
- Ring Enchants (2):
--- 32 AP (Assault)
--- 19 SP (Greater Spellpower)
--- 24 Stamina (Stamina)
- BOP Wands
Jewelcrafting
- BOP Gems (can use up to 3 total, not unique, prismatic for easier socket bonuses)
--- 54 AP (Bright Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Bright Cardinal Ruby) = 14 AP
--- 27 AGI (Delicate Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Delicate Cardinal Ruby) = 7 AGI
--- 27 STR (Bold Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Bold Cardinal Ruby) = 7 STR
--- 27 Crit Rating (Smooth Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Smooth King's Amber) = 7 Crit Rating
--- 27 Haste Rating (Quick Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Quick King's Amber) = 7 Haste Rating
--- 27 Hit Rating (Rigid Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Rigid King's Amber) = 7 Hit Rating
--- 32 SP (Runed Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Runed Cardinal Ruby) = 9 SP
--- 11 MP5 (Lustrous Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Lustrous Majestic Zircon) = 3 MP5
--- 189 ArPen (Fractured Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Fractured Cardinal Ruby) = 59 ArPen
--- 41 STA (Solid Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Solid Majestic Zircon) = 11 STA
- BOP Trinkets
Inscription
- Extra Major glyph in place of a minor glyph (REMOVED)
- BOP shoulder enchants (also don't require exalted with The Sons of Hodir like non-inscription enchants):
--- 104 AP, 15 Crit Rating (Master's Inscription of the Axe)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-Scribe (Greater Inscription of the Axe)) = 64 AP
--- 61 SP, 6 MP5 (Master's Inscription of the Crag)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-Scribe (Greater Inscription of the Crag)) = 36 SP
--- 52 Dodge Rating, 15 Defence Rating (Master's Inscription of the Pinnacle)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-Scribe (Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle)) = 32 Dodge Rating
--- 61 SP, 15 Crit Rating (Master's Inscription of the Storm)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-Scribe (Greater Inscription of the Storm)) = 36 SP
- BOP Offhands

Blacksmithing
- Glove socket (colourless)
- Bracer Socket (colourless)
- BOP Armor - TBA?
- BOP Weapons - TBA?
Leatherworking
- BOP Leg Armors:
--- 75 AP, 22 Crit Rating (Wyrmscale Leg Armor)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-LW (Frosthide Leg Armor)) = far cheaper mats
--- 55 STA, 22 AGI (Dragonscale Leg Armor)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-LW (Icescale Leg Armor)) = far cheaper mats
- Bracer Enchants:
--- 90 STA (Fur Lining: Stamina)
--- --- bonus (vs. enchant) = 74 STA
--- 70 SP (Fur Lining: Spell Damage)
--- --- bonus (vs. Superior Spellpower enchant) = 40 SP
--- 120 AP (Fur Lining: Attack Power)
--- --- bonus (vs. enchant) = 82 AP
- OLD PATCHES (APPEARS TO BE CHANGED) --- 100 AP, 36 Crit Rating (Wyrmscale Leg Armor)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-LW (Frosthide Leg Armor)) = 25 AP, 14 Crit Rating
--- 72 STA, 35 AGI (Dragonscale Leg Armor)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-LW (Icescale Leg Armor)) = 17 STA, 13 AGI
- Drums: (APPEAR TO BE REMOVED)
--- Increases spell power by 50 and attack power by 100 for 20 sec. (Garok's Battle)
--- Increases movement speed by 15% and haste rating by 95 for 30 sec. (Drums of Great Battle)
- BOP Armor - TBA?
Tailoring
- BOP Leg threads:
--- 50 SP, 20 SPI (Sanctified Spellthread)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-Tailor Brilliant Spellthread) = far cheaper mats
--- 50 SP, 30 STA (Master's Spellthread)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-Tailor Sapphire Spellthread) = far cheaper mats
- BOP Cloak Enchants:
--- a chance to restore 300 mana when you cast a spell (Darkglow Embroidery)
--- a chance to cause an additional 800 to 1000 Holy damage when you damage an enemy with a spell (Lightweave Embroidery)
--- your damaging melee attacks to sometimes ignore 1000 of your target's armor (Swordguard Embroidery)
- BOP Armor - TBA?
Engineering
- Unique Item Enchants:
--- 340 Haste Rating for 8 secs to gloves, 2 min cooldown (Hyperspeed Accelerators)
- Trinkets:
--- +63 SP + Sonic Shield: Melee attacks against you have a chance to create a shield absorbing 1100 damage, once per minute max. (Noise Machine)
--- +81 STA + Sonic Awareness: Sometimes increases your attack power by 430 for 10 sec, once per minute max. (Sonic Booster)
- BOP Goggles
- Other miscellaneous BOP items

---

Stat Comparisons (between professions):

Tanking:
- Mining = 500 HP
- Alchemy = 325 HP (Flask of Stoneblood)
- Enchanting = 48 STA
- Jewelcrafting = 33 STA
--- Jewelcrafting = 48 STA (counts avoiding using a red gem instead of a blue for meta requirements)
- Blacksmithing = 60 STA or 40 Def or 40 Dodge
- Leatherworking = 74 STA
- Inscription = 32 Dodge Rating

Physical DPS:
- Herbalism = 66.7AP (average, requires consumables)
- Skinning = 25 Crit rating
- Alchemy = 90 AP (Flask of Endless Rage)
- Enchanting = 64 AP
- Jewelcrafting = 42 AP or 21 AGI or 21 STR or 21 Crit Rating or 21 Haste Rating or 21 Hit Rating or 177 ArPen
--- Jewelcrafting = 62 AP or 31 AGI or 31 STR etc. (counts avoiding using a blue gem instead of a red for meta requirements)
- Blacksmithing = 80 AP or 40 AGI or 40 STR or 40 Crit Rating or 40 Haste Rating or 40 Hit Rating or 280 ArPen
- Leatherworking = 82 AP
- Inscription = 64 AP

Caster DPS / Healing:
- Herbalism = 33.3SP (average, requires consumables)
- Skinning = 25 Crit rating
- Alchemy = 62.5 SP (Flask of the Frost Wyrm) OR 19 MP5 (Flask of Pure Mojo)
- Enchanting = 38 SP
- Jewelcrafting = 27 SP or 21 Crit Rating or 21 Haste Rating or 21 Hit Rating or 9 MP5
--- Jewelcrafting = 49 SP (counts avoiding using 2 blue gems instead of 2 red gems for meta requirements)
- Blacksmithing = 46 SP or 21 Crit Rating or 21 Haste Rating or 21 Hit Rating or 16 MP5
- Leatherworking = 40 SP
- Inscription = 36 SP

---

Notes & Comments:
- Blacksmithing, Tailoring & Leatherworking all have advantages from the BOP armor/weapons they can make that are NOT summarized here as the infomation available is far from complete
- Blacksmithing & Jewelcrafting both allow for much easier socket bonuses
--- Blacksmithing allows gem color freedom on gloves & bracers
--- Jewelcrafting allows gem color freedom in up to 3 sockets
- Jewelcrafting allows you to gain stats that the other professions don't give at all (ArPen, +hit, expertise, +def etc.)
- Jewelcrafting only gems will be way easier to obtain than the epic gems they are compared to since they are crafted from blues (depending on recipe source)
- Jewelcrafting makes meta gem requirements (especially 2 blues req.) much easier if not trivial and confers a bonus that way (avoiding having to use suboptimal gems etc.)
- Tailoring is now also a semi-gathering profession due to cloth gathering bonus
- Alchemy (Mixology) comparison has not been updated with actual results and still assume 50%/25% bonuses

 

Khab

I done some test and maths about Str to answer the question for 3.0:

" Is strength a good tanking stats as Dev team trying to do with Warrior?"


First of all, I do those Test and Maths base on my Character which having almost all end-game Tanking gear for TBC ( only missing 1 Ring from M’uru and Helm from KJ)
With my gears I have 7% miss chance on 73 bosses, my expertise give me dodge immune and my attack only have 3% chance to be parried. With fully raid buffed, I’ll have 20% base Crit.
With those info I can do the maths base on my Attack table to see the benefit I get from Str, AP ,Block Value, Agi, Crit………….

All of those Math is made to compare stats, so I’ll count bosses Armor value as 0, because all of my attack hitting the same boss with the same AR. If Str is superior than Agi for a boss have 0 AR, Str will still be superior than Agi when the boss have 30% Dmg Reduce from Armor
Threat modifier from Defensive Stance, and those Ability staying the same, so comparing DPS gain will show the TPS gain too.

And just a head up, after a lot of maths, it is proven that Str is still not a good stats for Warrior yet, if Blizzard give me a choice to ask for Str or Agi on my tanking gears, I’ll ask for Agi.

And here is the result :

For each Attack Power Tanking Warrior will get :

0.119 DPS increase per AP for HS on 20% of swings
0.129 DPS increase per AP for HS on 70% of swings
0.132 DPS increase per AP for HS on 100% of swings
These number can get 10% more additional benifit from 10% AP boots raid buff. Surely tanking Warrior will have WF, but the AP buff is not something to be sure.

For Each Block Value, with 2/2 Gag Order and 4P T6 and Shield Block every 50s .

1 BV will give 0.403 DPS increase

For each point of Str Tanking Warrior will get :

0.458 DPS increase for HS on 20% of swings
0.479 DPS increase for HS on 70% of swings
0.486 DPS increase for HS on 100% of swings

These number can get 10% more additional benifit from Kings.

Every point hit or Expertise(after dodge immune) from gear will give 0.761 tanking DPS increase.
Every Crit from gear will give 0.543
Every Agi from gear will give 0.363 and Agi can get 10% more from Kings


Just a little bit of warning, those number was base on the info i gather from my test with my Charracter which have almost all End-game tanking Gears, your number can be a little different since your tanking toon follow a different Attack Table, and you might don't use 4P T6 for 10% extra Shield Slam dmg

The post follow i'll show how did the test going, and those maths, attack table and numbers ...... You can follow the same step and do your own maths easily.

 

Khab

Section 1: Attack Tables

Special Attack Table for Devastate, Heroic Strike, Shield Slam :

Miss 7%
Dodge 0%
Parry 3%
Crit 35%
Hit 55%

If I got 1DPS on my Character info, my actual DPS will be higher after my attacks finish rolling on this table. There will be :
Crit dmg is 2X my dmg
Missed dodged and Parried Attack can’t cause dmg.
Hit dmg = actually dmg


0.35*2 + 0.55 = 1.25

So basicly if I get 1 DPS on my character info my actually DPS will be 1.25 after all my attacks rolling on the table

Scaling = 1.25/1 = 1.25

For Revenge and Thunder Clap

Miss 7%
Dodge 0%
Parry 3%
Crit 20%
Hit 70%

Scaling = 0.2*2 + 0.7 = 1.1

White Swing Attack Table

Miss 7%
Dodge 0%
Parry 3%
Glan 25%
Crit 20%
Hit 45%

This one is a bit tricky because of Glancing dmg reduce.
Player Lv70 VS lv73 boss = 25% chance glancing and glancing dmg range will be 0.6~0.75 of normal dmg, average dmg= (0.6+0.75) / 2 = 0.675 . Which mean Glancing dmg average 0.67 of normal dmg

Scaling = 0.25*0.675 + 0.2*2 + 0.45 = 1.01


Summary about Attack table :

If I gear up 1 DPS increase for Heroic Strike, Devastate, Shield Slam : I actually having 1.25 DPS increase
If I gear up 1 DPS increase for my White Swing : I actually having 1.01 DPS increase
If I gear up 1 DPS increase for my Revenge : I actually having 1.1 DPS increase

Section 2 : The test

I do a 300s test for Skill use for tanking with Shield Slam, Devastate, Heroic Strike, keeping up Thunder Clap and Demoralizing Shout on the mob.

My Result :


11 Demoralizing Shout
12 Thunder Clap
52 Shield Slam
113 Devastate
202 melee Swing ( can be either white hit or Heroic Strike, depend and rage situation while tanking)

There's no Revenge, i was 1 of the 1st Warrior realize that Revenge is not good anymore. I already did my test about Revenge or no Revenge while tanking and posted in this PTR forum awhile ago. Even now Devastate is Nerf, but Revenge is still not worth to use in normal Threat Circle anymore. If the tanking warrior somehow get some RNG with dodge,parry and become rage starving Revenge might be his choice. We can expect 1 or 2 revenge per fight for warriors.

Demo Shout don’t do dmg, so we can forget about it.
Thunder Clap doing some dmg, but it is very small we can consider that it close to 0 DPS compare to others ability.

So, base on the scaling of DPS increasing for each ability, and the use of those ability in 300s of tanking, I can calculate the total dmg increase if I got extra AP, Str, Block Value, Agi, Crit, Hit, Expertise in 300s, and calculate DPS increase number for each stats .

Section 3 : Attack Power

Warriors can get a lot of AP buffs in Raid, let’s see how do their DPS while tanking scaling with AP:

14 AP = 1 DPS
That 1 DPS will affect HS, White Dmg and Devaste. Shield Slam gain 0 dmg from AP.
My tanking weapon speed is 1.5.
So, 1DPS increase mean average 1.5 weapon dmg increase for Heroic Strike and White hit
Devastate only use 50% of weapon dmg, so 1DPS increase = 0.75 extra dmg for Devastate

Let's see after 300s, how much extra DMG i can get from 14AP

Devastate dmg increase = 113 * 0.75 * 1.25 = 105.94 extra dmg (1.25 is the scaling from attack table, and I did 113 Devastate in 300s)
Now let’s talk about the Rage situation, most boss tanking fights will give the Warrior the rage to HS about 70% of his melee swing.
Let’s do it for 3 different Situation, OTing and HS for 20% of Melee Swing, MTing and HS for 70% of melee Swing, MTing and HS on 100% of melee Swing (End-game bosses, endless rage)

HS for 20% of Swings and I did 202 Swing ==> 40 HS , 162 white swing
HS for 70% of swings ==> 141 HS, 61 white swing
HS for 100% swings ==> 202 HS

The dmg increase for White dmg :

HS for 20% swings : 162 * 1.5 * 1.01 = 245.43
HS 70% 61 * 1.5 * 1.01 = 92.415
HS 100% 0

The dmg increase for HS :

HS for 20% 40 * 1.5 * 1.25 = 75
HS for 70% 141 * 1.5 * 1.25 = 264
HS for 100% 202 * 1.5 * 1.25 = 368.75

The Total dmg increase that 14 AP give me for 300s Tanking (devastate dmg increase plus white dmg increase and plus HS dmg increase :

HS for 20% 105.94 + 245.43 + 75 = 426.37
HS for 70% 105.94 + 92.415 + 264 = 462.355
HS for 100% 105.94 + 368.75 = 474.69

It was 300s test, so the DPS increase will be :

20% HS 426.37 / 300 = 1.421
70% HS 462.355 / 300 = 1.541
100% HS 474.69 / 300 = 1.582

My test was without WF
We talking about Raiding, so Warrior tank gonna having Windfury, can be from Enhance, or a Resto Shammy which differ from 16% haste gain to 20% haste gain
Basicly Tanking Warrior having close to 0% haste from Gear, so let’s do math with those WF gain for Swings
Rougly 16% haste give around 14~15% extra Swings
And 20% haste give around 18~19% extra Swings
Which mean 14%~19% gain from Swings for DPS increase
Let’s get an average of 17% swings gain from WF


20% HS 1.421*1.17 = 1.663
70% HS 1.541*1.17 = 1.803
100% HS 1.582*1.17 = 1.851

It was 14AP, so for each AP I’ll get
- 0.119 DPS increase per AP for 20% HS case
- 0.129 DPS increase per AP for 70% HS case
- 0.132 DPS increase per AP for 100% HS case


Depend on how many time I HS the DPS gain from AP will be differ
And those gain can get additional 10% by the gain of AP from Raid buff ( by True Shot Aura or Unleashed Rage)

 

Khab

Section 4 : Block Value

Warrior will use the Meta gem which give 5% BV
Talent give 30% BV

Shield Block will give 10s of double BV for every 40s
Warrior can’t use SB on every CD because he have other things to do, and he need to use Shield Block as his SS is up, so let’s do a math with the case that Warrior use Shield Block for every 50s, that make Shield Block up time 10s for every 50s, it’s 20% uptime

Shield Block only increase 100% of base BV.
==> The warrior will have 235% BV for 20%uptime and 80% fight duration with 135% BV

Average will be 0.8*1.35 + 0.2*2.35 = 1.55 scaling from base BV
Gag Order talent give 10% more dmg from Shield Slam, and 4P T6 set bonus or 2P T7 set bonus is 10% more dmg of SS ==> it’s 120% dmg gain
==> The true scaling will be 1.55*1.2 = 1.86

Sadly, I can only manage to SS 52 times for 300s ==> I use Shield Slam every 5.77 sec ( I guess some warrior that play with 50ish ping will do better than me, I play will 200~300 ping)

The dmg gain from 1BV for 300s test with 52 Shield Slam done :

52*1.86*1.25 = 120.9

DPS increase from 1 BV will be 120.5 / 300 = 0.403

(for every 1 BV, Warrior will gain 4X from every AP, so AP is still bad. This line is for those Warriors that thinking about using Battle Shout to tank after reading Blue Posts saying that Warrior Threat is scaling good with AP. Bless you.)


Section 5 : Strength

Prot Warrior having +6% str from talent
1 Str = 2AP
==> for every Str Prot Warrior get from gears he’ll have 2*1.06 = 2.12 AP
In order to have 14AP, I’ll need 14 / 2.12 = 6.6 Str from Gears

For every 14 AP I get these number of DPS increase (result of Section 3)
20% HS 1.421*1.17 = 1.663
70% HS 1.541*1.17 = 1.803
100% HS 1.582*1.17 = 1.851

6.6Str = 14AP, so for each point of Str from gear I’ll get

0.252 DPS increase for HS on 20% of swings
0.273 DPS increase for HS on 70% of swings
0.280 DPS increase for HS on 100% of swings

6.6 Str will give me 6.6*1.06 / 2.07 = 3.38 BV

==> I’ll get 3.38*0.403 = 1.362 PDS increase for 6.6str with Shield Slam (0.403 is DPS increase from each BV)
==> For each point of Str I’ll get 1.286 / 6.6 = 0.206 DPS gain

Summary for the each point of Str I’ll get (dmg increase from Str for Devas,HS,White hit plus the dmg increase for Shield Slam)

0.252+0.206 = 0.458 DPS increase for HS on 20% of swings
0.273+0.206 = 0.479 DPS increase for HS on 70% of swings
0.280+0.206 = 0.486 DPS increase for HS on 100% of swings

Those number can get 10% additional benefit from Blessing of Kings


Section 6: Hit, Expertise(after dodge immune), Crit, Agi

Now let’s do our math with Hit, Expertise, Crit, Agi
For all of those Attack table, 1% more hit, or 1% less Parry, or 1% more Crit, 1% more Crit from Agi will give roughly 1% DPS gain for tanking. This is for lv70 Spec when Warrior can’t really afford to have point in impale to give extra Crit dmg, it will be a bit different for lv80 spec when most warrior will get 2/2 Impale for his spec which give higher benefit from Crit and Crit from Agi.


The fact is, I tried my best with Warrior tanking spec with like all of the best Tanking loots in game, I come up with about 1000~1300 tanking DPS in Sunwell on PTR with raid buff and stuffs. Kinda like 1200 Average tanking DPS

1% more hit, 1% less parry, 1% more Crit, 1% more Crit from Agi will give me 1% of 1200 DPS. It’s like 12 tanking DPS.

It’s 15.76 Hit or expertise to get 1% extra hit or 1% less parry (expertise round up or down)
==> Every point hit or Expertise from gear will give 12/15.76= 0.761 tanking DPS increase

It’s 22.08 Crit rating to get 1% extra Crit.
==> Every Crit from gear will give 12/22.08 = 0.543 (better than Str even with Blessing of Kings and 100% HS on swings)
Of course Tanking Warrior won’t go for Crit gems for Tanking gears( but if you fellow Warrior need extra TPS, you know which of those number to compare gears)

It’s 33agi for 1% crit with lv70 Warrior
==> Every Agi from gear will give 12/33 = 0.363 DPS increase. The trouble is 33agi will give u more than 1% dodge while 33 Strength only give you about 16BV, 16BV is nothing compare to 1% dodge.
And Agi can get 10% more Benefit from Blessing of Kings just like Strength.

 

teiglin

Devastate is normalized to 2.4s weapon speed (assuming you're not using a dagger), so 14 AP should actually be worth 1.2 devastate damage.

My thunder clap hits for over 300 on ptr and my warrior's gear is bad, so I don't think the damage is negligible. I think it scales with 12% of AP before talents, but I could be wrong there. Incite also affects thunder clap, not that it matters since you didn't include its damage.

Yellow attacks (devastate, shield slam, not sure about heroic strike) don't use the usual single roll hit table, they use a two roll system. So they first roll hit/miss, then regular hit/crit. I don't know how this interacts with block, but my guess would be that block is considered in first roll. Of course, you didn't include mob block as it probably doesn't have a huge impact on the numbers, at least from napkin math perspective. One consequence if the two roll system is that +hit/expertise will actually increase your final crit% with specials, and 1% paperdoll crit will provide less than 1% crit on special attacks.

Is the new Shield Block on the GCD? I don't see why you wouldn't use it on cooldown, barring special situations (maybe save it for stomps or something?). Of course saving it for right as shield slam cools down makes sense, but that is at most a 6s delay from its cooldown and especially with sword and board will likely be less. Regardless, assuming it's used every 42-43s seems like a more reasonable interval (though I suppose 50s does give nice, round 20% uptime).

Agi, like all avoidance stats, will have diminshing returns as your avoidance goes up come 3.0. I don't know exact numbers offhand--there's an entire thread devoted to discussion of this sort of thing--but 33 agi isn't any fixed amount of dodge, and is less dodge as your gear gets better. I don't imagine block value will ever be subject to diminishing returns, however.

Damage Shield will increase the value of Block Value, though of course how much depends on boss attack speed.

You didn't include Glyph of Blocking, increasing Block Value by 10% basically all the time.

It also bears noting that your dps tests on PTR had the gear with new stats, so your high dps is a result of those changes. If the strength were removed, you'd have less AP, resulting in lower dps, and crit would be appear much less valuable. My little brain can't figure out how dps would be affected if all the strength were converted directly to agi, though. Your "1% crit = 1% dps" is also rather simplistic; white attacks will benefit ~.9%, and specials significantly less since they all have +15% crit, though lower base crit% will increase the relative value of crit.

Most of these will have a tendency to favor str/ap/bv over agi/crit in terms of tps, I think, though of course some more than others. However, my primary concern as a tank is always less TPS than it is mitigation, and with the addition of diminishing returns on avoidance, when (if ever) block value actually becomes as valuable as dodge with respect to damage mitigated over the course of a fight is hard to judge.

 

Khab

Thx for the Feed Back, i'll doing some modify to my maths when i have time to add 10% more BV from Shield Slam Glyph and change those special attack to 2 roll table.

And something i forgot to do was 10% more dmg from Enrage mechanic when block/dodge/parry an attack.

 

Diamedes

I haven't seen much discussion on this but Im curious if anyone plans on wearing different gear when the new changes hit, particularly the changes to shield block. I do mostly 10 mans so I know my gearing style wouldn't work as well in 25's but Ive basically always stacked block value and stamina which works well in 10 mans because the damage isn't very high. Since we won't be spamming shield block anymore it seems like stacking block value on gear won't be worth it as we'll get plenty from strength and won't be blocking nearly as much anymore. Its hard to say what threats going to look like after they're finally done with us but on beta at 80 we do much more damage and threat has never been easier. If that remains it would seem like avoidance would be the way to go, not all out avoidance but maybe combination stam/def gems instead of straight stam like most do now.

 

Yomon

I guess with the upcoming Diminishing Returns on avoidance stats, Armor and Stamina will be king again - and that in any Encounter.

As an example my 2nd Onslaught Chest which is gemmed and enchanted with avoidance will grant me 1,6 % avoidance instead of 2.25 % avoidance due to Diminishing Returns. With full raid buffs it might be as low as 1.5 % avoidance. My other T6 chest which is my health Chest, has 674 more hp with full raid buffs. In my oppinion 674 hp is much better than 1.5 % avoidance is.

With 40 second Shield Block, 4 minutes Shield Wall we can prevent critical scenarios better then we can pre 3.0.Just as an example - with Shield Block every stomp at Brutallus Avoidance is not needed anymore. You can stack more health so you will survive 4 or more hits with active Shield Block.

I guess Armor, Stamina, Shield Block Value and Shield Block Rating (if you Block every hit, it smooths out the damage taken, and you will be more easly healable) will be the most important stats post patch.

 

Khab

Here is some result for you.

Devastate dont have a Speed Normalization, desvasate dmg really totally depend on weapon dmg, speed and AP. On a same DPS weapon, slower weapon give better Devastate dmg

Inc Warrior change make Revenge become useful again, i need to modify my test to add Revenge into Threat circle plus those Proc S&B from Revenge

The 10% Block Value Glyph only avaible in Northend, so let's not worry about that now.

 

Zuluhed

I am pretty sure you are wrong on that one. All instant attacks as far as I know have an Attack Power normalization. Using a one-handed weapon that normalization factor is 2.4, for a dagger it is 1.7. Regardless of this, a slower weapon will still generate more threat since its average damage is higher. But the contribution from Attack Power is the same regardless of weapon speed for the same type of weapon.

 

Borodin

Devastate is Attack Speed Normalised (2.4) - remember it's contribution from AP that's normalised not the weapon damage so yes a slower weapon with a higher damage per swing will do more damage per swing of course.
What you don't get is extra benefit from your AP for a slow weapon.
And with Devastate you only get half of that because you only do 50% Weapon Damage (including AP contribution).