The Protection Guide - Page 85

Borodin · 09/29/08, 12:05 PM

Back to Glyphs, Resonating Power is now redundant as the target-limit has been lifted from Thunderclap.

So considering what I might use now:

Major
Glyph of Blocking is pretty much a no brainer - this will permanently active in combat. This will probably get nerfed as anything "too good to be true" or such a "no brainer" tends to be.

Glyph of Heroic Strike or Revenge - while Heroic Strike has greater potential threat savings it's relying on Crits to do so and even with Incite I'd only expect 30-35% of my HSes to Crit

Glyph of Sunder or Devastate - Sunder useful on Trash though it sounds like TC and Shockwave will be enough for most packs. Vs a Boss the Devastate Glyph is useful for the first 2 swings then becomes worthless.

So maybe I'd even take HS and Revenge but unlike Blocking it feels like there's valid choices to be made among the latter 4.

I'd actually let Taunt go and rely on pure threat to not have to worry about Taunt Resists being such a massive issue.

Minor
Glyph of Charge (finally a way to Charge 30 yards).
Glyph of Mocking Blow (currently there's conflicting info that this either adds a Taunt or 25% damage to MB).
Glyph of Blood Rage.

Koryk · 09/29/08, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Khab

Here is some result for you.

Devastate dont have a Speed Normalization, desvasate dmg really totally depend on weapon dmg, speed and AP. On a same DPS weapon, slower weapon give better Devastate dmg

Inc Warrior change make Revenge become useful again, i need to modify my test to add Revenge into Threat circle plus those Proc S&B from Revenge

The 10% Block Value Glyph only avaible in Northend, so let's not worry about that now.

Wrong. The AP contribution on all warrior instants have been normalized since 1.6 or 1.8 or some such. The only damage bonus you receive from Devastating with a slower weapon is from the weapon's base damage, which, as mentioned before, is halved and does not scale with anything else.

The minor damage/threat bonus from Devastating with a slower weapon is dwarfed by the loss of potential Heroic Strikes.

Khab · 09/29/08, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by Borodin

Devastate is Attack Speed Normalised (2.4) - remember it's contribution from AP that's normalised not the weapon damage so yes a slower weapon with a higher damage per swing will do more damage per swing of course.
What you don't get is extra benefit from your AP for a slow weapon.
And with Devastate you only get half of that because you only do 50% Weapon Damage (including AP contribution).

Ic, i miss the part that Dragger normalizerd to 1.7 and sword to 2.4

Fellwraith · 09/29/08, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Borodin

Back to Glyphs, Resonating Power is now redundant as the target-limit has been lifted from Thunderclap.

So considering what I might use now:

Major
Glyph of Blocking is pretty much a no brainer - this will permanently active in combat. This will probably get nerfed as anything "too good to be true" or such a "no brainer" tends to be.

Glyph of Heroic Strike or Revenge - while Heroic Strike has greater potential threat savings it's relying on Crits to do so and even with Incite I'd only expect 30-35% of my HSes to Crit

Glyph of Sunder or Devastate - Sunder useful on Trash though it sounds like TC and Shockwave will be enough for most packs. Vs a Boss the Devastate Glyph is useful for the first 2 swings then becomes worthless.

So maybe I'd even take HS and Revenge but unlike Blocking it feels like there's valid choices to be made among the latter 4.

I'd actually let Taunt go and rely on pure threat to not have to worry about Taunt Resists being such a massive issue.

Minor
Glyph of Charge (finally a way to Charge 30 yards).
Glyph of Mocking Blow (currently there's conflicting info that this either adds a Taunt or 25% damage to MB).
Glyph of Blood Rage.

One thing to note about the sunder armor glyph is that it will hit other mobs near you, even if they aren't "red" to you. I had it hit some non-hostile mobs next to a mob I was attacking during a daily the other day and ended up killing something I didn't want to kill. It effectively adds an aoe to your sunder/devastate, which can be bad since we're using devastate as one of our primary single-target attacks. Anytime you're in a situation that you wouldn't use thunderclap, you also won't want to use sunder/devastate. It's not a big deal, but it can be annoying.

The minor glyph to increase the range on tclap by 2 yards could be situationally useful, I'd probably use that before the bloodrage or mocking blow glyphs. An extra minute on battleshout is also one of those "nice to have" type abilities and it has a real benefit for you all the time. I don't use mocking blow that much, I don't use bloodrage when I don't have a healer, I use battleshout all the time.

Also, Torgal on the beta forums has already posted a big string of math to help people determine optimal stat weights. His math looks correct for the current beta build. You can find it here.

Muggins · 09/29/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Borodin

Glyph of Mocking Blow (currently there's conflicting info that this either adds a Taunt or 25% damage to MB).

There are actually 2 glyphs for Mocking Blow which might be where the confusion comes from. Glyph of Mocking Blow increases the damage by 25%, Glyph of Barbaric Insults(best name ever) adds a taunt to mocking blow.

Dots · 09/29/08, 6:42 PM

Note that Glyph of Mocking Blow is minor but Glyph of Barbaric Insults is major.
About Torgal's post, it doesn't factor in that Revenge will most likely proc S&B as well, so that math won't be correct for long.

Borodin · 09/30/08, 5:53 AM

Thanks, I'd been wondering if the Sunder element of Devastate benefited from the Sunder Glyph (I assumed it would but you never know quite how the logic would interact).
Thanks for the warning to all too that your Sunders will become something of a "loose cannon" but I think it's worth the risk given how you could fire your Devastates at a target next to a sheep and get "free" threat on said sheep (I've never needed it but it's welcome).

This leaves the question: if I have both Glyphs of Devastate and Sunder will my Devastate apply 2 Sunders to 2 targets? I think yes...

Khab · 09/30/08, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by Dots

Note that Glyph of Mocking Blow is minor but Glyph of Barbaric Insults is major.
About Torgal's post, it doesn't factor in that Revenge will most likely proc S&B as well, so that math won't be correct for long.

Those maths of mine is just a basic idea which can be modified with any new factor that blizz putting into the game.

After the new change, i'll just spend another good 300s tanking and see how many Revenge,Swing,SS,Devaste,Demo,TC i done. And apply those attack table to see the dmg gain from AP,Str,BV,Hit....... again.

Ofcouse this time i'll use 2roll table for Special attack and use 1.7 or 2.4 weapon speed normalization for Devastate.

• Jamor · 09/30/08, 8:58 PM

Originally Posted by Diamedes

I haven't seen much discussion on this but Im curious if anyone plans on wearing different gear when the new changes hit, particularly the changes to shield block. I do mostly 10 mans so I know my gearing style wouldn't work as well in 25's but Ive basically always stacked block value and stamina which works well in 10 mans because the damage isn't very high. Since we won't be spamming shield block anymore it seems like stacking block value on gear won't be worth it as we'll get plenty from strength and won't be blocking nearly as much anymore. Its hard to say what threats going to look like after they're finally done with us but on beta at 80 we do much more damage and threat has never been easier. If that remains it would seem like avoidance would be the way to go, not all out avoidance but maybe combination stam/def gems instead of straight stam like most do now.

One thing I am def. doing is putting a much higher weight on block rating, which (last I heard) does not have DR. As such, I am putting a pretty strong weight on it.

That being said, re-evaulating items that have a high % of block rating is a must. I may start wearing Styleen's again because of how good it is all around. Another item that might get some more wear is the tanking ring from ZA. A lot of things are going to depend on how well much threat we do and how much threat stats I can drop for mitigation. This is just 3.0 thinking here.

Yomon · 10/02/08, 2:28 AM

Originally Posted by Jamor

That being said, re-evaulating items that have a high % of block rating is a must.

With Autoblocker and Coren's Lucky Coin I have passive 1118 Block Value. If I activate both and use Shield Block I am at 2879 Block Value (5758 Critical Block :o ) without raidbuffs - now I see what blizzard meant with "mini Shield Wall". Thats why I'll also use Block Rating Items. Besides the Zul'Aman ring I'll also wear The Darkener's Grasp again for extra block rating.

But it is debatable if two block Trinkets will replace other Trinkets. Upon Pocket Watch use you'll get about 8 % dodge. Shadowmoon's avoidance is nerfed due to diminishing returns, but the use effect is still good. Commendation adds a lot of stamina and the effect is still handy.
But all in all I think that two block trinkts will be the way to go, for many bosses - the increased mitigation is just too good.

Threat will be a nonissue. I have done a Zul'aman timed pug (pre Vigilance, Revenge and Shield Slam change) and there was a Ret Paladin with ~1800 dps. He could never reach more than 70 % of my threat. I wore my sunwell gear with ~2 % Hit, ~6 % Expertise, about 750 Block Value 7 % Crit and about 1200 unbuffed Attackpower.

Riot · 10/02/08, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Yomon

With Autoblocker and Coren's Lucky Coin I have passive 1118 Block Value. If I activate both and use Shield Block I am at 2879 Block Value (5758 Critical Block :o ) without raidbuffs - now I see what blizzard meant with "mini Shield Wall". Thats why I'll also use Block Rating Items. Besides the Zul'Aman ring I'll also wear The Darkener's Grasp again for extra block rating.

But it is debatable if two block Trinkets will replace other Trinkets. Upon Pocket Watch use you'll get about 8 % dodge. Shadowmoon's avoidance is nerfed due to diminishing returns, but the use effect is still good. Commendation adds a lot of stamina and the effect is still handy.
But all in all I think that two block trinkts will be the way to go, for many bosses - the increased mitigation is just too good.

Threat will be a nonissue. I have done a Zul'aman timed pug (pre Vigilance, Revenge and Shield Slam change) and there was a Ret Paladin with ~1800 dps. He could never reach more than 70 % of my threat. I wore my sunwell gear with ~2 % Hit, ~6 % Expertise, about 750 Block Value 7 % Crit and about 1200 unbuffed Attackpower.

Mmm. Not to burst your bubble, but a Ret Paladin isn't too hard to keep aggro off of. Any good Sunwell DPS can pull off you if they want to. Your sample size isn't that great.

To be honest, your ideas sound intriguing, but impractical - reaching the defense cap is pretty difficult, and I'm fairly certain all tanks will be after a Seal of the Pantheon initially to hit the defense cap. (Trinket with 65 defense).

Two block trinkets will not be possible til post-Naxx for sure.

With regards to reevaluating items with Block Rating currently for use in WOTLK - stuff it. Your first priority is going to be hitting the defense cap. Every single item I have on Lich King currently has defense on it, except for one of my trinket slots.

Now, when you're capped AND you have items with high block rating on them, then we can theorize.

Nethris · 10/02/08, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Riot

Mmm. Not to burst your bubble, but a Ret Paladin isn't too hard to keep aggro off of. Any good Sunwell DPS can pull off you if they want to. Your sample size isn't that great.

To be honest, your ideas sound intriguing, but impractical - reaching the defense cap is pretty difficult, and I'm fairly certain all tanks will be after a Seal of the Pantheon initially to hit the defense cap. (Trinket with 65 defense).

Two block trinkets will not be possible til post-Naxx for sure.

With regards to reevaluating items with Block Rating currently for use in WOTLK - stuff it. Your first priority is going to be hitting the defense cap. Every single item I have on Lich King currently has defense on it, except for one of my trinket slots.

Now, when you're capped AND you have items with high block rating on them, then we can theorize.

I thought I'd seen reference to the new PvP trinket having 80 resilience or so on it - if we're desperate to reach the defense cap, resilience may be an option based on what I've seen from feral druids using it in this expansion. Not optimal by any means, but an option. The loss of +defense talents that's making this an issue does seem a bit extreme though - an increase to the -crit effect of defense to compensate would be good...

On the subject of completely non-optimal ideas (read bad), I have to wonder what the the threat gen of this 37/0/34 build would look like against a fast attacking mob or against a dps focus target while AoE tanking... revenge being on a 1 second CD and doing 950 + 20% AP with a 20% bonus from talents would be interesting if not particularly useful... though it may be an another argument for speccing into early prot for PvP to get the stun on it.

Whoops, edited to actually link to said bad idea.

Yomon · 10/02/08, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by Riot

Two block trinkets will not be possible til post-Naxx for sure.

If you would have read mine and Jamors post, you would have seen that my post was about patch 3.0. I totally agree with you that crit immunity is the most important thing with WotLK but that won't be a problem post patch.

My thoughts were that a high Shield Block Value empowers your Shield Block massively - you can easly Shield Block through Stomp, Corrosion and other abilities and save Shield Wall or Last Stand for a more critical situation.

The threat example is nonsense post WotLK, right. But post patch you can see how much dps will be possible. A Retribution Paladin with 3200 DPS won't pull aggro. A Warlock will sustain 5000 dps without threat issues. This is in +60% Avoidance gear, were pre patch threat is an issue due to lack of rage. To do this you need only as few as 1415 TPS (if you Vigilance on the ret pally you'll need 1191 TPS). Revenge and Shield Slam alone will do about 1000 TPS (thanks to the new 2.0735 threat multiplier).

Threat will be a nonissue. There is no chance for the DPS to pull aggro.

Khab · 10/03/08, 6:34 AM

I re-do my test and math base on 9014.

The result was truely amazing, Warrior get really good scaling TPS from AP and Str now (as they can get 10% additional benifit from Raid buffs)

For each Attack Power Tanking Warrior will get :

- 0.160 DPS increase per AP with 0 HS
- 0.171 DPS increase per AP with 60% HS
- 0.178 DPS increase per AP with 100% HS

These number can get 10% more additional benifit from 10% AP boots raid buff

For Each Block Value, with 2/2 Gag Order and 4P T6 and Shield Block every 50s .

1 BV will give 0.403 DPS increase

For each point of Str Tanking Warrior will get :

0.545 DPS with HS on 0% of swings
0.568 DPS with HS on 60% of swings
0.585 DPS with HS on 100% of swings

These number can get 10% more additional benifit from Kings.

Every point hit or Expertise(after dodge immune) from gear will give 0.761 tanking DPS increase.
Every Crit from gear will give 0.543
Every Agi from gear will give 0.363 and Agi can get 10% more from Kings

Note that Str can give around 0.6 DPS while tanking now. It's like 1.3 TPS for every point of STR with threat multifier.

Khab · 10/03/08, 6:36 AM

I forgot the mention that hit and expertise still have its Throne in TPS build. But we never know the true content and the tunning from Blizz will be at High End where TPS is really important due to enrage timer.

• Jamor · 10/03/08, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Yomon

If you would have read mine and Jamors post, you would have seen that my post was about patch 3.0. I totally agree with you that crit immunity is the most important thing with WotLK but that won't be a problem post patch.

My thoughts were that a high Shield Block Value empowers your Shield Block massively - you can easly Shield Block through Stomp, Corrosion and other abilities and save Shield Wall or Last Stand for a more critical situation.

The threat example is nonsense post WotLK, right. But post patch you can see how much dps will be possible. A Retribution Paladin with 3200 DPS won't pull aggro. A Warlock will sustain 5000 dps without threat issues. This is in +60% Avoidance gear, were pre patch threat is an issue due to lack of rage. To do this you need only as few as 1415 TPS (if you Vigilance on the ret pally you'll need 1191 TPS). Revenge and Shield Slam alone will do about 1000 TPS (thanks to the new 2.0735 threat multiplier).

Threat will be a nonissue. There is no chance for the DPS to pull aggro.

Speaking of trinkets, and I am not thinking about it so much from a tank perspective (although it probably has it's uses), but has anyone done any playing around with the class trinket from BT? Seems to be much more attractive with S&B and block value from STR?

Khab · 10/03/08, 1:44 PM

I can do some quick maths for that.
It's 55str for 12s with 25% proc on SS
SS is used about once every 6s
Ideally the triket bonus 55str have around 50% up time
Which mean around 23str with 100% uptime.

1 BV will give 0.403 DPS increase

while even with Kings, str only give around 0.65 DPS increase

Gnomerian Autoblocker win

Nethris · 10/04/08, 1:39 AM

Originally Posted by Khab

I can do some quick maths for that.
It's 55str for 12s with 25% proc on SS
SS is used about once every 6s
Ideally the triket bonus 55str have around 50% up time
Which mean around 23str with 100% uptime.

1 BV will give 0.403 DPS increase

while even with Kings, str only give around 0.65 DPS increase

Gnomerian Autoblocker win

The point of Sword and Board though is that you can SS more often than once every 6 seconds on average though. Assuming you're using mostly devastate and revenge when not using SS, you have about a 30% chance to be able to use SS 3 seconds after the last time you used it, and then a 30% chance to be able to use it at 4.5 seconds. That gives an average of 3*(.3) + 4.5*(.7)(.3) + 6*(.7)(.7) = 4.785 seconds between shieldslams. Using that to estimate downtime as (.75)^(12/4.785) = 0.486 only gives an uptime of about 51.4% uptime, so unless you're wanting the very minor healing from it, it still isn't very good.

Using MS and SS or BT and SS would give you 4 chances to proc every within 12 seconds, giving downtime as (.75)^4 = 0.316 for about 68.4% uptime, and possibly enough healing procs to be useful while leveling, but that requires using a 1H and shield or titans grip and a shield, neither of which seem likely to be that great for killing things compared to a standard arms, fury, or prot setup.

Tassa · 10/06/08, 10:34 AM

With patch 3.0.2 coming tomorrow for the Americans and the day after that for the Europeans discussion about a new tank spec would be ideal. The spec I am going to spec is this:Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft There are some talents I am not sure whether to take or not, mainly Armored to the Teeth (AttT). When AttT was increasing your strength by 1/2/3 for every 400 armor you had, it was simple too good and it was neffed so it instead increases your Attack Power by 1/2/3. But, is it still so good that it warrants 3 talent points in it, and from where should you take those 3 talent points?
Secondarily I would love to see what other warrior tanks choose to spec for 3.0.2 so that I, and everyone else for that matter, could reflect and discuss to attain the best spec for a main tank situration.

Branar · 10/06/08, 12:10 PM

With patch 3.0.2 coming tomorrow

Has this been confirmed someplace? Everything I've seen indicates that it's likely the 14th, but without any official word.

I think your spec misses a few points, at least for endgame raiding:

1) I'd definitely max out 1H weapon spec and Improved Revenge before taking Puncture. Because every Revenge and Devastate has a 30% chance of proccing sword and board, your 3.0.2 cycle will have many fewer Devastates, which reduces the usefulness of Puncture.

2) I think Damage Shields is too good to pass up. It's passive threat and damage that scales incredibly well with number of mobs as well as your gear - keep in mind that everybody is gaining a lot of block value with the new str:bv conversion.

Personally I'll be going with this spec to start with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

From there, I may drop Warbringer if it's not turning out to be useful or fun. My guess is that it *will* be, but if it's just a wasted point for raiding I'll spec out of it, and respec once the WotLK leveling begins.

I plan on doing some battlegrounds stuff with Improved Spell Reflect and Safeguard just to feel those talents out.

Soloman · 10/06/08, 2:43 PM

At the moment imp Spell Reflect only has about a 10 yard range.

Tbh I cant really see a reason to place more than one point here, I mean how often are you really going to have 3+ party members in close proximity?

Safeguard however feels pretty good in pvp, I was running a couple BGs and intervene->SR on the FC was waaay too much fun

Not sure how useful safeguard is gonna be overall in pve, Basically if the AoE DPS is pulling agro this may save em. But from what I've gathered if we're losing agro in the first place something probably went wrong.

Also of Note, Vigilance on a seeding lock, intervene if he yanks agro and safeguard may give you enough time to taunt the trash off him. (since taunt would constantly be refreshed)

• Jamor · 10/06/08, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Soloman

At the moment imp Spell Reflect only has about a 10 yard range.

Tbh I cant really see a reason to place more than one point here, I mean how often are you really going to have 3+ party members in close proximity?

Safeguard however feels pretty good in pvp, I was running a couple BGs and intervene->SR on the FC was waaay too much fun

Not sure how useful safeguard is gonna be overall in pve, Basically if the AoE DPS is pulling agro this may save em. But from what I've gathered if we're losing agro in the first place something probably went wrong.

Also of Note, Vigilance on a seeding lock, intervene if he yanks agro and safeguard may give you enough time to taunt the trash off him. (since taunt would constantly be refreshed)

At best, Safegaurd is a situational respec when you need it, type of talent for PVE.

Kethas · 10/08/08, 1:04 AM

Does anyone have any convincing evidence regarding ideal tanking professions come Wrath? I've read the general Wrath professions overview on Tankspot (rigorous) and Spooncraft's thoughts on his site (not so much), which conclude, loosely, that blacksmithing and jewelcrafting are likely to be among the most-appropriate professions. However, neither is terribly recent - I was wondering if there's been any developments that might sway opinions, in particular regarding inscription.

I'm currently engy/mining, and while I'm happy to drop mining, I'm loathe to drop engineering as I suspect it's due for some buffs (given how poor its shape in Wrath is currently vs. its options in BC).

Dots · 10/08/08, 4:42 AM

I think (hope) that many professions are getting a few more changes soon. For example there is still no new +sta or +def enchant on bracer, meaning LW will give a bigger bonus to tanks than it probably should (+78 sta). Engineering also needs some major buffs like you already said.

• Jamor · 10/08/08, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dots

I think (hope) that many professions are getting a few more changes soon. For example there is still no new +sta or +def enchant on bracer, meaning LW will give a bigger bonus to tanks than it probably should (+78 sta). Engineering also needs some major buffs like you already said.

I am guessing they will have a +30 stam enchant -- thus giving LW a +60 overall value (which is more similar to the other professions). LW also gives the befits of cheaper epic leg enchants.

Really, most professions are pretty close right now. But things will really change when BOP patterns and stuff come out. Until then, I am sticking with Enchanting and LW -- I would prefer BS to one of those, but there is not a compelling enough reason for me to switch. Because leveling BS really, really sucks.