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Old 11/01/08, 5:56 AM   #2226
Kethas
Von Kaiser
 
Kethas's Avatar
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Valoran View Post
Shield Slam is always better than Revenge for threat, the only exception being in a rage starved situation. If you've got the rage for it and you want to do the highest TPS rather than TPR, use SS.
This is entirely true - in the context of a single GCD where both are available - but you don't address the question. Consider an example. Say you SS, and as you're watching your abilities for the next GCD, you see that Revenge, while lit up, won't quite be off cooldown. Say, 0.5 second late. "Okay," you say, "I know Revenge is a lot more threat than Devastate, and the price to Revenge rather than Devastate is pretty low - I just have to wait a third of a GCD." So instead of hitting Devastate you wait for the revenge, and get that ability on cooldown faster. Now your GCDs are slightly off, and the next time SS comes off cooldown, it'll be 0.5 sec early. You ponder - "If, instead of getting my last Devastate in prior to the second SS, I wait, I can get that SS in 0.5 sec early. Is the loss of a Devastate worth getting SS on cooldown faster?" In this case, probably not - you're missing a whole Devastate just to move SS a half-second up in your rotation, and in the process miss a chance for SnB to proc - but I couldn't confirm that for you quantitatively.

My point is that, prior to 3.0, the SS/Rev/Dev/Dev warrior rotation was set in stone because SS could be used every 6.0 seconds, every time, and it was good enough compared to your other options that you wanted to use it as often as possible. You had three GCDs free between shield slams, and nothing came remotely close to Rev/Dev/Dev for using those GCDs. Now, a) there isn't necessarily a 6.0 second framework to fit rotations into because of SnB's ability to randomly reset it, and b) Revenge isn't lit up as reliably as it was before.

It's also true that, while 3.0 lets us HS an awful lot more than previously, within (in my experience) the majority of 10-second windows during a particular boss fight we're not working with infinite rage, which would skew our preference towards rage-efficient Revenge and its 5 second, not 6 second, reset. As 5.0 sec is not a multiple of the GCD, this reduces our motivation to stick to using abilities every GCD.

Originally Posted by Valoran View Post
Such a macro will not work at all. It will attempt to cast shield shield regardless and will fail to progress any further down the macro. "/cast Devastate" won't even be evaluated. Personally, I haven't had any problems watching for SnB, the sound has generally provided me enough of a signal. If you're really having issue missing procs, you could setup a SCT/Parrot event to spam you with a text warning (and even add custom sound event), or use a notification mod like TellMeWhen or Power Auras.
Ouch. When did they change the macro system to not permit drop-down logic like this?

I do use Power Auras to monitor class-relevant buffs and debuffs (and would strongly recommend it to anyone interested in monitoring short-term status changes). I also use a dummy Bartender4 bar (no keybinds and I never click it) to watch my cooldowns (Shockwave, Rev, SS, Taunt) and plant it right below the middle of the screen, so noticing SnB proc'ing is not an issue. Sometimes - I assume because of lag? - SnB just doesn't proc until (say) 1.0 sec into the 1.5 sec GCD, and at that point it's hard to react since you want to send your next GCD-attack command 150ms (say) early to compensate for lag.

Originally Posted by Valoran View Post
If you're in tanking gear with decent levels of strength (note: strength, not attack power) and block value, sticking a shield on and using SS when possible will always out threat pure devastate spam.
Do you by any chance have numbers to back this up? This is indeed what I've been doing since 3.0, but I'm interested in confirming it quantitatively.

Last edited by Kethas : 11/01/08 at 6:02 AM.

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Old 11/01/08, 7:33 AM   #2227
Twid
Bald Bull
 
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Beepz
Human Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Has anyone figured out the equation for Parry and Dodge diminishing returns? I would love to see a plot of X=Current % Dodge/Parry, Y=Rating needed for 1% Dodge/Parry. I've just been trying to wrap my head around it with less than stellar success. What I'm envisioning is a reference chart of some sort that lets a tank visually compare which form of avoidance is more beneficial at their current gear level.

Here are some numbers as they apply to a typical Sunwell geared tank (Me).

At 32.87% Dodge, 20 Dodge rating grants an additional 0.62% Dodge, as opposed to the 1.06% expected value.
At 18.43% Parry, 26.4 Parry rating grants an additional 0.77% Parry, as opposed to the 1.12% expected value.

So, at these Dodge and Parry percentages, it takes 34.3 Parry rating to equal 1% Parry, and 32.26 Dodge rating to equal 1% Dodge. This says to me that if my Parry% stays largely the same, and Dodge% goes up (As was typical progressing through Sunwell), eventually it will be more beneficial for me to possibly socket a Parry gem instead of a Dodge in a red slot.

I suppose initially it's going to be a stamina gems all the way at 80, but there's almost no reason to socket for threat, so when stamina isn't an issue, finding the proper avoidance stat will be very useful. That is unless Defense is superior over both. Does the added Miss% from Defense suffer from diminishing returns?

Originally Posted by Kalman View Post
Get you some purple drank and slow yo roll.

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Old 11/01/08, 9:11 AM   #2228
Alhoe
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Vek'lor (EU)
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/

Read that article and use rating buster.

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Old 11/01/08, 10:27 AM   #2229
 Valoran
absit invidia
 
Human Rogue
 
Shadowsong (EU)
@Kethas
I think a point you're missing about Shield Slam vs. Revenge/Devastate is that using these abilities *after* SS you have a chance at proccing sword and board right on the following GCD, that's too valuable in terms of TPS to pass up on, even if it means a small wait. Putting Shield Slam on CD should always be your first priority.

I'm not entirely sure that it's ever been possible to list two global cooldown abilities in a macro, but if this was a change at some point, it was early in vanilla wow, it's certainly never been possible in TBC.

As for your GCD problem, it sounds like you have a similar setup to the one I have with TellMeWhen (only the bar put up doesn't take up "clickable" screenspace as an actionbar would. Anyway, as I said earlier, I've never found any issue with reliably using shield slam on a proc as it always seems to proc in the same timeframe. Sadly there's not much you can do other than just pushing the right button as soon as you can react to it, if you've done everything you can to make noticing it as easy as possible.

If you're interested in exact threat numbers this Simulator can help with that. It's purely a numbers thing with regards to the gear you're using and have available. I'm sure there are some gear sets where dev spam will out threat SnB shield slamming (such as those using a lot of ap based dps gear).

Last edited by Valoran : 11/01/08 at 11:53 PM. Reason: Kaubel

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Old 11/06/08, 5:48 PM   #2230
Mattimeo
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Nagrand
I come here to ask about professions for a protection warrior in wrath of the lich king.

I've come to a decision that these are the 5 primary candidates for them.
These professions are purely for the passive bonuses that they can provide, such as Enchanting's ring enchants, inscription's extra glyph slot (but if that really is gone, they've still got the BOP shoulder enchants), leatherworking's fur linings and leg enhancers, blacksmithing's extra jewel slots (and rumored meta socket for chest), and jewelcrafting's epic BOP 'dragon's eye' gems:

Enchanting
Inscription
Leatherworking
Blacksmithing
Jewelcrafting


Notes: For the purposes of this post, I'm discounting, say, mining's bonus to stamina as you can obtain better stam bonuses via a combination of any of the above (excepting IS)

Furthermore, the other professions that I'm not looking at are:
Engineering
Herbalism
Tailoring
Alchemy and while you guys get the passive You receive an increased effect and duration when you drink any elixir or flask you are able to make thingo, this will certainly be outweighed by better things, as blizzard certainly isn't going to make a passive buff completely OP.
Gathering

This post is focused PURELY on passive stats that can be gained.


Let us imagine that we are in the BEST possible gear that we can get in the game, for a warrior tank. We discount all craftable items (except gems for obvious reasons (there are no dropped equivalents to the +41 stamina BOP crafted gem in WLK/BC at present))

Upon investigation of the dragon's eye gems, unless MMO-champion and WOWhead are wrong, they can be crafted and worn at 375 Jewelcrafting, meaning there are possibly greater gems on the horizon, but that means that the gap between dropped and crafted gems is even greater than previously assumed.

For the maximum bonuses to your class, what are we looking at?

In enchanting- BOP enchants, (none seen yet), but probably in the same vein as the +4 all stats ring enchant.
from the wiki, and this site, we can see the BOP enchants:

Permanently enchant a ring to increase attack power by 32. Only the Enchanter's rings can be enchanted, and enchanting a ring will cause it to become soulbound.

Permanently enchant a ring to increase Stamina by 24. Only the Enchanter's rings can be enchanted, and enchanting a ring will cause it to become soulbound.

In any case, I can imagine that most tanks will go for the stamina unless you're planning to use the AP for some "abilities that scale with AP, for my threat set" build.

Second case: Inscription.

I don't believe there are any "BOP" glyphs, the purpose of this is asking whether that extra Minor Glyph slot to use with what you will.

UPDATE: exclusive shoulder enchants:

specific to warriors:
Permanently adds 52 dodge rating and 15 defense rating to shoulder armor.

Permanently adds 104 attack power and 15 critical strike rating to shoulder armor.
perhaps for an OT set, or threat set.

52 dodge rating is quite an amount, but at level 80, 15 defense rating is nothing, not very much out of the 540 we'll supposedly need. This will scale well at 70, but I imagine not so well at 80. There doesn't seem to be an indication that you lose the benefit of this enchant after you do it, so perhaps you could do this and then drop inscription, powerlevel LW and get those buffs.


Warrior tanking/threatgen glyphs (minor, as the extra slot unlocked is a MINOR slot therefore major glyphs should not come into consideration) :

Glyph of Battle (Req. lvl. 15) - Increases the duration of your Battle Shout ability by 1 min.
Glyph of Bloodrage (Req. lvl. 15) - Reduces the health cost of your Bloodrage ability by 50%.
Glyph of Charge (Req. lvl. 15) - Increases the range of your Charge ability by 5 yards.
Glyph of Enduring Victory (Req. lvl. 62) - Increases the window of opportunity in which you can use Victory Rush by 5 sec.
Glyph of Mocking Blow (Req. lvl. 16) - Increases the damage of your Mocking Blow ability by 25%.
Glyph of Thunder Clap (Req. lvl. 15) - Increases the radius of your Thunder Clap ability by 2 yards.

well, with 3 minor glyph slots to begin with, there seems to be enough case to disregard taking inscription because there isn't a real reason to take it.

Glyph of Battle shout- well, you're going to be using BOM anyway until blizzard buffs Battle Shout to a proper duration.

Glyph of Bloodrage- reducing health cost of bloodrage sounds good, but how often do you need to use it anymore, what with charge's new utility as a rage-generator on multiple-mob fights, this might be useful, say, in a patchwerk-esque fight with only one mob, gaining that initial aggro while keeping more health. At level 80, that's going to probably be seeing you take only 700 out of the 1400 or so that bloodrage at 80 does. The question does arise that if you are in a patchwerk-esque fight, ARE you going to need that extra rage? This is definitely personal preference.

Glyph of Charge- increases range of charge by 5 yards. Less crucial seconds spent running to the boss, or making the pull easier? I don't know what's BAD about this glyph.

Glyph of Enduring Victory- a highly situational glyph which won't be used EVER. why would you switch to battle stance to use it and therefore lose all the rage you had from the previous fight, which could be used for greater dps/damage than victory rush.

Glyph of mocking blow: A damage increase? It's better than other glyphs.

Glyph of Thunder Clap: Increasing range by 2 yards= more enemies hit= win.

If you really wanted to get Bloodrage, Charge, Mocking Blow and TC glyphs, then you can take it. But that's VERY silly in light of the buffs of other professions. I suppose we might see more reason at level 80 when there are more minor glyphs that are for tanking utility.

UPDATE: Well, what I've written now seems silly if scribes don't get that additional minor glyph slot. But it's a big slab of writing, why should I delete my analysis of the glyphs?

Leatherworking:

There is reason enough to take this purely for the fur linings.

What these are are basically BOP enchants for your bracers. One of which is for 90 stamina. obviously only available to leatherworkers (hello feral druids!)

Let's not forget, instead of at level 70 you guys could make nethercleft leg armor and sell it on the AH for money.

At 80, your equivalent item is 55 stamina and 22 agility, but CANNOT be used by anyone but yourself, so to get the level 80 version of nethercleft leg armor you'll have to leatherwork.

The AP one is for 75 attack power and 22 critical strike rating.

now, the fur linings :

All of these can only be done to the leatherworker's bracers and DOING so causes the item to become soulbound.

Permanently enchant bracers to increase your Arcane resistance by 60.

Permanently enchant bracers to increase your Fire resistance by 60.

Permanently enchant bracers to increase your Frost resistance by 60.

Permanently enchant bracers to increase your Nature resistance by 60.

Permanently enchant bracers to increase your Shadow resistance by 60.

Permanently enchant bracers to increase Stamina by 90.

Permanently enchant bracers to increase attack power by 114.


now that's A shitload of utility. I imagine that at fights that need resistance many guilds will need their tanks to become leatherworkers just for these boons, not unlike in sunwell how many guilds got leatherworkers done in for the drums.

For the above enchants I'm taking Leatherworking (as soon as I've finished making a crapload of enchants for myself (i'm not throwing away my executioner, mongoose, crusader and lifestealing, unholy, fiery for nothing, and I'll at least create some backups so I can continue to do them until an alt is enchanting with those hard-to-get formulas)



Blacksmithing:

With this, a BIG crafting profession, you might call my a hypocrite. I'm focusing on one, and ONLY one aspect of the blacksmith in this case- the additional Gem socket and rumored META gem socket for chest that they get.

Now let's examine what a 450 blacksmith COULD do to his armor:

Permanently add a socket to your gloves. Requires a level 60 or higher item.
Cannot add more than one socket to an item. Can only add a socket to your own armor, and adding a socket binds the item to you. The added socket requires that you maintain 400 blacksmithing or it will become inactive.

obviously someone's going to try to put the gem in the socket and then drop BS, but they'll keep the socket there, it will just not provide the bonus anymore.

Permanently add a socket to your bracers. Requires a level 60 or higher item.
Cannot add more than one socket to an item. Can only add a socket to your own armor, and adding a socket binds the item to you. The added socket requires that you maintain 400 blacksmithing or it will become inactive.


now if the meta socket that is rumored does become available that will be a MAJOR reason to take blacksmithing for tanks.

at the moment, there is the best meta gems for tanking:

+32 stam and +2% armor value from items (so it won't scale with agility)
+21 def rating and +5% SBV (even though in BC now there is a gem with only 12 def rating, but +10% SBV!)
+32 stam and -2% spell damage
countless other gems that could be used for tanking, usually with +32 stamina and a CC effect percentage reduction.

now, having an additional meta socket on the chest would allow you to take both the +2% armor gem and the +5% SBV one (or if you were crazy and took both of the +% SBV ones (unless blizzard have nerfed the BC one now?))

let's not forget you get an additional 2 slots, one to your gloves, and one to your belt. These sockets are likely to be indiscriminate of color because they wouldn't go towards bonuses, therefore there is no need for the sockets to have a color.

The key thing here, is to compare this with what Jewelcrafting can do.


Jewelcrafting get an exclusive series of BOP gems- the ones usable for tanking are listed.

Dragon's eyes-

Thick- +27 defense rating
Subtle- +27 dodge rating
Solid- +41 stamina
Rigid- +27 hit rating
Precise- +27 expertise rating
Flashing- +27 parry rating
Bold- +27 Strength
Delicate- +27 agility

only 3 can be equipped at any one time. Now, these are craftable RIGHT now (i think, as they have a skill needed of 375) so it's likely that ones for 450 will be created and be comparable to WLK gems.

to compare the bonuses given by the WLK gems accordingly, we will examine the greatest epic gem equippable for, say, strength, and use it as a percentage of the dragon's gems to work out what we should see at 450 skill.

greatest equippable non-JC gem for strength-

Bold Crimson Spinel- +10 strength

compared to

Bold Dragon's Eye- +27 Strength.

the percentage is approximately .370370370370370370 recurring.

In WLK, the greatest epic gem for strength is +20 strength.

If we divide 20 by the percentage as a pure number, say 37.0370370370370370370, we get 1 percent of the total value that the dragon's eye at 450 skill should get.

multiply by 100, we get 54 strength, essentially a doubling of the former's value.

now, if we have 3 sockets, with 3 54 strength gems in them, we get 162 strength value.
In contrast, a blacksmith will have in essence an extra 2 sockets above those the JC gets, but without the greater gems.

let us assume he also wishes to socket for strength.

5x20= 100.

100 strength, compared with 162- the jewelcrafter wins out here, so for those thinking that you will get more utility from the blacksmith's extra 2 sockets, becoming a jewelcrafter will recoup the losses from those two sockets and THEN some.

The deciding factor in this becomes WHETHER or not blacksmiths will get a meta gem socket for the chest or not.

Until such time, I'm undecided on which will be better in the end, as it's all highly situational to what fights you place yourself in.


For an endgame raider with the best equipment available, it would be ideal to be a LW and JC to obtain the best bonuses from his equipment, from the current data that we have.

For an entry level tank, it will likely be the craftable epics from blacksmithing that will allow a smoother transition to the upper echelons of LK's PVE game.

For now, my choice going into LK will be LW/BS, of course with alts providing the mats for both, until I replace BS gear, at which point I'll get Jewelcrafting up there.

till next time.

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Old 11/06/08, 7:37 PM   #2231
Zegai
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warrior
 
Aerie Peak
Bringing something I feel might be a issue:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
This spec (37/1/33 or something similar) currently gets most of the protection mitigation talents (in fact, it lacks 2% in stamina and critical block).
Unrelenting Assault currently lets you spam Revenge (respecting the GCD) and Heroic Strike (due to Glyph of Revenge). This really seems like a bug to me - something similar to how they nerfed Taste for Blood and Overpower.

I'm pretty positive as well that this spec generates considerably more threat than the standard prot one, especially with the easy 10+% crit we get with raid buffs. (I did a quick solo test at 70 versus elites, with the arms spec doing more DPS even without Imp Def stance and 1h Spec)

It sure doesn't look intended..

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Old 11/06/08, 8:17 PM   #2232
Mode
Piston Honda
 
Troll Shaman
 
The Venture Co
Originally Posted by Zegai View Post
Bringing something I feel might be a issue:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
This spec (37/1/33 or something similar) currently gets most of the protection mitigation talents (in fact, it lacks 2% in stamina and critical block).

It sure doesn't look intended..
It's interesting and meaningless. Past the initial 5-10 seconds of the pull, threat is only a factor if there are extenuating circumstances (ie tank spends extensive time off-target or is maintaining threat on two targets that are getting the full burn treatment). If I only need to generate <x> single target threat, everything after <x> is as useful as the color of my skin. The only time any dps/prot hybrids will be relevant is if you want to max out tank single target DPS for some arcane reason.

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Old 11/07/08, 4:58 AM   #2233
neg^
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by Kethas View Post
Couple questions concerning the new 3.0 mechanics. (Ninja edit: Okay, several.)

...

2) On a related note, tanking ability selection is now a lot less rote - we need to watch for SnB procs. I find that sometimes the SnB proc appears very late into the GCD, so I have little time to react and may incorrectly hit Devastate instead of using the SnB proc. Prior to 3.0 I was a big advocate of not tanking via macro so as to relinquish as little control as possible of which abilities I use, but now I'm tempted to change my Devastate button into

/cast Shield Slam
/cast Devastate
... with the appropriate additions to remove the error message when SS is, in fact, on cooldown. Anyone else thought of/tried this?

...
#showtooltip Devastate
/cast Shield Slam; Devastate
Should work. If SS fails the macro will cast Devaste instead. Haven't tried the macro myself(yet), but I've also noticed that when SnB lights up late my fingers are already well on their way doing what seemed best ~1 sec ago

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Old 11/07/08, 6:06 AM   #2234
Zegai
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warrior
 
Aerie Peak
Originally Posted by Mode View Post
It's interesting and meaningless. Past the initial 5-10 seconds of the pull, threat is only a factor if there are extenuating circumstances (ie tank spends extensive time off-target or is maintaining threat on two targets that are getting the full burn treatment). If I only need to generate <x> single target threat, everything after <x> is as useful as the color of my skin. The only time any dps/prot hybrids will be relevant is if you want to max out tank single target DPS for some arcane reason.
I'm really unsure if that'll be the case past the first couple of raids in LK. I honestly doubt they intend to make tank threat completely meaningless forever, and, well, our threat doesn't scale nearly as well as DPS' "threat".

The same happened in BC, if you knew what you were doing early on (many didn't, including me) you'd have a reasonable threat lead. That gap just got smaller, especially with how some DPS classes scaled better than others.

I don't think it'll take that long before threat matters again. And, really, what else can we optmize when talking about tanking (well, I know, you can optimize mitigation, but you have so few tools to actually optimize that in our talent trees you can just get them all - or almost all, if you talk about a spec like this, and call it a day)?

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Old 11/07/08, 7:23 AM   #2235
Fellwraith
This ain't no place for a hero
 
Fellwraith's Avatar
 
Mulack
Orc Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by neg^ View Post
#showtooltip Devastate
/cast Shield Slam; Devastate
Should work. If SS fails the macro will cast Devaste instead. Haven't tried the macro myself(yet), but I've also noticed that when SnB lights up late my fingers are already well on their way doing what seemed best ~1 sec ago
Not to be a dick, but if you haven't tried it, why are you saying it should work? They eliminated the ability to do macros like this back around the time 2.0 went live. The "best" you can do is /castrandom or /castsequence, neither of them work well with sword and board.

Blizzard doesn't want dumbfire, optimized, one-button macros where no decision is required between distinct actions, they've said that several times. It's why they removed the ability to do "if" logic in a macro a while ago. It's also why they tried to eliminate mods like decursive.

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Old 11/07/08, 8:49 AM   #2236
neg^
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by Fellwraith View Post
Not to be a dick, but if you haven't tried it, why are you saying it should work? They eliminated the ability to do macros like this back around the time 2.0 went live. The "best" you can do is /castrandom or /castsequence, neither of them work well with sword and board.

Blizzard doesn't want dumbfire, optimized, one-button macros where no decision is required between distinct actions, they've said that several times. It's why they removed the ability to do "if" logic in a macro a while ago. It's also why they tried to eliminate mods like decursive.
I'm at work and can't test that specific macro at the moment, but I do use others with the same syntax. Stance switching, berserker rage(before patch), spellreflect, back to dps weapons etcetera.

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Old 11/07/08, 10:49 AM   #2237
 Valoran
absit invidia
 
Human Rogue
 
Shadowsong (EU)
Originally Posted by neg^ View Post
I'm at work and can't test that specific macro at the moment, but I do use others with the same syntax. Stance switching, berserker rage(before patch), spellreflect, back to dps weapons etcetera.
No, they don't follow the same syntax, because if they did then they wouldn't work. Your stance macros will have conditionals (/cast [nostance:1] Battle Stance; Charge for example). Currently, there is no way to make an all in one dev/shield slam macro or indeed cast multiple spells without the use of the conditionals that exist within the macro system, as Fellwraith says - this has been the case and intention of blizzard for a while.

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Old 11/07/08, 12:01 PM   #2238
Mode
Piston Honda
 
Troll Shaman
 
The Venture Co
Originally Posted by Zegai View Post
I'm really unsure if that'll be the case past the first couple of raids in LK. I honestly doubt they intend to make tank threat completely meaningless forever, and, well, our threat doesn't scale nearly as well as DPS' "threat".
I really think the current setup forever. A major reason there was a tank shortage is that tanking was pass/fail whereas DPS was a sliding scale of fail. If you didn't know how to tank, your group wiped until your learned. So they made the test much easier to pass. It's easy to make fun of people now, but I'm glad I was able to learn to tank with guildies who were as bad as I was at the time.

There's not much discussion here or in the other tank centric threads because tanking is solved at every level of play. We're definitely going to be talking about tank DPS and itemization over the coming months, but we'll probably be talking more about the thousand little things that will actually separate good tanks from bad. Things like how to setup pulls(First/last to die, what should be off-tanked or CC'd), the best place to tank a boss, what mobs can be range tanked with spell reflect, what mobs are good to disarm, what instances are fun to tank and which ones are Crypts, how we compare to the other tanks, etc.

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Old 11/07/08, 3:09 PM   #2239
Juelz
Glass Joe
 
Juelz's Avatar
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Twid View Post
So, at these Dodge and Parry percentages, it takes 34.3 Parry rating to equal 1% Parry, and 32.26 Dodge rating to equal 1% Dodge. This says to me that if my Parry% stays largely the same, and Dodge% goes up (As was typical progressing through Sunwell), eventually it will be more beneficial for me to possibly socket a Parry gem instead of a Dodge in a red slot.
This was the purpose behind the diminishing returns addition, in my opinion. I supposed Blizzard didn't like the fact that not only could players could stack up avoidance to the point they were unhittable (Rogue tanking Gruul/Illidan) but they felt that Parry was being left out due to its lesser value per point. With the new DR rules, a tank in later end game content will reach the point where Parry will be of greater value than Dodge.

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Old 11/07/08, 3:14 PM   #2240
Kethas
Von Kaiser
 
Kethas's Avatar
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by neg^ View Post
#showtooltip Devastate
/cast Shield Slam; Devastate
Should work. If SS fails the macro will cast Devaste instead. Haven't tried the macro myself(yet), but I've also noticed that when SnB lights up late my fingers are already well on their way doing what seemed best ~1 sec ago
Just tested; this macro does, indeed, not work. It behaves exactly like "/cast Shield Slam" would.

I'm giving up on a SS/Dev macro, just like earlier I gave up on a macro to mouseover sunder without breaking CC when you aren't already autoattacking something. I'd just recommend that tanks use a bar mod or something similar to put a copy of your SS button somewhere easily visible and/or set up an audio alert when SnB procs, and keep your SS, Rev, and Dev keybinds close together.

Originally Posted by Zegai View Post
I'm really unsure if that'll be the case past the first couple of raids in LK. I honestly doubt they intend to make tank threat completely meaningless forever, and, well, our threat doesn't scale nearly as well as DPS' "threat".
Sorry, I don't have a link, but I remember reading that at one of the Blizzcon forums a dev explained that threat had become much more a tanking issue than they'd intended. I don't expect TPS to be as serious a challenge in Wrath as it was in BC.

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Old 11/07/08, 3:55 PM   #2241
Fellwraith
This ain't no place for a hero
 
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Mulack
Orc Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Valoran View Post
No, they don't follow the same syntax, because if they did then they wouldn't work. Your stance macros will have conditionals (/cast [nostance:1] Battle Stance; Charge for example). Currently, there is no way to make an all in one dev/shield slam macro or indeed cast multiple spells without the use of the conditionals that exist within the macro system, as Fellwraith says - this has been the case and intention of blizzard for a while.
Stance changes are on a different type of cooldown, they aren't the same as the GCD, it's why the stance change macros with something like zerker rage work. Anything that would activate the GCD can't have conditional logic in it. The first ability that activates the GCD trumps any subsequent actions unless you're using castrandom or castsequence.

Just get in the habit of hitting your shieldslam key right before your devastate key and you'll usually get it right.

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Old 11/07/08, 5:10 PM   #2242
 Valoran
absit invidia
 
Human Rogue
 
Shadowsong (EU)
Yup, I should've said "GCD abilities" rather than just "spells". As stances are on their own one second cooldown, rather than the full blown 1.5 second other abilities share.
Originally Posted by Juelz View Post
This was the purpose behind the diminishing returns addition, in my opinion. I supposed Blizzard didn't like the fact that not only could players could stack up avoidance to the point they were unhittable (Rogue tanking Gruul/Illidan) but they felt that Parry was being left out due to its lesser value per point. With the new DR rules, a tank in later end game content will reach the point where Parry will be of greater value than Dodge.
Parry in itself is a bit silly in its current form, the whole hasted attack component of the stat (both as a player and as a mob) looks all well and good on paper and has a certain RP value; but really just adds unnessassary complication to avoidance mechanics and itemisation. It would make a lot more sense to give it an equal value to dodge rating and just remove the haste component entirely, or to combine the two statistics to one universal "avoidance rating" of which x% acted as parry and y% as dodge. Atleast to me, that would make more sense than artificially increasing the value of parry. That said, avoidance *was* clearly becoming too powerful in sunwell and action did have to be taken to avoid a repeat in WotLK.

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Old 11/08/08, 2:34 AM   #2243
Uglesh
Piston Honda
 
Orc Warrior
 
Bonechewer
I know i have used a macro for devastate and heroic strike. I believe it's just:
/cast devastate
/cast heroic strike

Basically i use as my rage dump on bosses.... and to my knowledge it still works.


I don't doubt that Blizz will have to do something with threat in WoTLK... right now it's horribly irrelevant between vigilance and MD's. I hazard a guess we can look forward to plenty of aggro resets or VR type threat reduction abilities.

I can't imagine that Stam won't reign for a very long time with the current set up. We clearly have more then enough threat building talents/abilities now, so many stats just won't be as crucial as survivability. Diminishing returns will just play into this further. Time will tell, and the encounters will be the dictating force. Will we see more "big baddies" who it for a lot (or have an uber move) or more groups where we have to multi-mob tank. Each scenario will likely yeild a different "best fit" for stat allocation. Oh... and lets not forget gear itemization!! From the items i see, STR shouldn't be something we are short on.

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Old 11/08/08, 11:07 AM   #2244
Mia
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Dragonblight (EU)
Originally Posted by Uglesh View Post
I know i have used a macro for devastate and heroic strike. I believe it's just:
/cast devastate
/cast heroic strike
Heroic Strike doesn't trigger GCD, that's the whole difference. You can have multiple abilities that don't trigger GCD, but only one that does.

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Old 11/08/08, 7:39 PM   #2245
suffer
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Eredar
Do we have any posts or other threads here discussing leveling 70-80 as a prot warrior. I'd like to find some gear discussions for this if possible.

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Old 11/08/08, 11:57 PM   #2246
Warrok
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Antonidas (EU)
Originally Posted by suffer View Post
Do we have any posts or other threads here discussing leveling 70-80 as a prot warrior. I'd like to find some gear discussions for this if possible.
Due to the huge DPS boost with patch 3.0 I see this as an entirely viable option. I will most likely level as prot myself. Compared to a DPS spec you have greater survivability and thus less downtime. I can also see the advantage of being able to solo certain elite mobs, which DPS specs can't (though this is speculation on my part). Relating to gear I can only suggest using tanking gear with lots of strength and block value on it (those stats amplify prot damage output considerably. There might be extremely low rage situation where real DPS gear would fare better (in which case you could ask yourself whether you don't pick a DPS spec in the first place).

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Old 11/09/08, 3:35 PM   #2247
suffer
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Eredar
Originally Posted by Warrok View Post
Due to the huge DPS boost with patch 3.0 I see this as an entirely viable option. I will most likely level as prot myself. Compared to a DPS spec you have greater survivability and thus less downtime. I can also see the advantage of being able to solo certain elite mobs, which DPS specs can't (though this is speculation on my part). Relating to gear I can only suggest using tanking gear with lots of strength and block value on it (those stats amplify prot damage output considerably. There might be extremely low rage situation where real DPS gear would fare better (in which case you could ask yourself whether you don't pick a DPS spec in the first place).
Not to mention most likely easily being able to find a group for a 5-man instance along the way, as tanks will be highly sought after when folks want to try out the new instances as well as gear up with some new lvl 71-79 blues.

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Old 11/09/08, 7:43 PM   #2248
Mia
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Dragonblight (EU)
Originally Posted by suffer View Post
Not to mention most likely easily being able to find a group for a 5-man instance along the way, as tanks will be highly sought after when folks want to try out the new instances as well as gear up with some new lvl 71-79 blues.
Even if *any* warrior can tank every instance during the leveling up, as long as they have tank gear and know what to do. I am not sure the general population know, or care, about that. I foresee that pugs will want a prot warrior, not an arms/fury warrior to tank.

One problem I can see coming is that prot warrior/paladin and bear aoe aggro is so good that people actually may forget to only dps Skull, something that can be disastrous later in heroics and 10-mans, or when a non-prot warrior tanks. With SWP prot tanks, I can actually see people AOEing the earlier instances. The mobs will die fast enough for aggro to not matter, if the tank is allowed to open with a shockwave and TC.

On my way to 80 in Beta, I did the first 3 levels as TG, then I swiched to prot. With prot I could solo some of the group quests, and really didn't need more than one partner (with healing) for the rest of them. The enraged regeneration (from 75+) is enough to heal you while you farm. You will spend more time running between the mobs than to actually kill them, so I didn't really feel much difference in leveling speed. I spent most of my time in zerker with 1h+s, only using defensive on elites and to force an enrage for regeneration. With regeneration, you will never have to stop for bandaging or eating. You only really need a full group for instances. A full swp prot warrior can probably solo even 1 or 2 of the bosses in the Anguish event. Many can grab a tank weapon upgrade in Zul'drak at 74 by doing the group quest Ragemane. A SWP prot tank can probably solo it (but will be hard without regeneration). i did it at 76, and I had no swp tank items, and in reality no upgrades of my BT items.

Most normal trash mobs hit for less than your SBV, unless you are in all greens. Learn to love Enraged Regeneration. Imo, it's the best new skill we get in the expansion. I learned to watch the cooldown on it, so I could force an enrage and use it at once it went off CD. I stayed at 100% health most of the time. I only saved it when I knew I would meet an elite or a group of mobs in the next 2 min.

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Old 11/09/08, 8:03 PM   #2249
Smooglab
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Warrior
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by Mattimeo View Post
Leatherworking:

There is reason enough to take this purely for the fur linings.

What these are are basically BOP enchants for your bracers. One of which is for 90 stamina. obviously only available to leatherworkers (hello feral druids!)

Let's not forget, instead of at level 70 you guys could make nethercleft leg armor and sell it on the AH for money.

At 80, your equivalent item is 55 stamina and 22 agility, but CANNOT be used by anyone but yourself, so to get the level 80 version of nethercleft leg armor you'll have to leatherwork.
Are you sure about this?

I've had a discussion about well... your post basically, on ventrilo, and from what I understand when you use the leg armour on an item, the item becomes soulbound, but the leg armour an sich can be traded to non-LW'ers, even the epic one. Also if you're correct about the epic leg armour being LW'er only, then in your calculation you need to subtract the stats you gain from the blue quality leg armour from the epic one to make it fair.

At first I wanted to wait and "fix" my professions at 80, but I decided to do it in these last few days. I'm not going to touch enchanting, but for my second spot I, at first, wanted to immediately get LW - but now I have my doubts whether it's as good a JC.

Terrified. Mortified. Petrified. Stupefied... by you!

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Old 11/09/08, 10:01 PM   #2250
Warrok
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Antonidas (EU)
Since no one did before, I will respond to some claims in your somewhat lengthy post about profession bonuses.

First I'd like to mention that discounting every and all BoP items a profession provides might not be the best approach, especially early on in the game. BoP items can help with gearing considerably and even provide best in slot items for a very long time. Though since you did your analysis with a top-geared warrior in mind I'll try to not bring in BoP item benefits too often. Though I don't like the thought neglecting them because all these things should do is help us gearing up and progress. If you already geared up and progressed, whats the point of it anyway?

Originally Posted by Mattimeo View Post
Upon investigation of the dragon's eye gems, unless MMO-champion and WOWhead are wrong, they can be crafted and worn at 375 Jewelcrafting, meaning there are possibly greater gems on the horizon, but that means that the gap between dropped and crafted gems is even greater than previously assumed.
You completely made that up. What Blizzard made here is a way every JC with 375 skill and up is able to benefit from their profession only gems. It gets even more ridiculous when you are trying to come up with math showing how good skill 450 gems should be. Come on you didn't really think you will get 54 strength in a single gem, did you?

Lets go back to the facts and compare the JC only gems in BC with the BoE epic gems. Where BoE gems give 10 of a stat you will get gems with 12 of the same stat. A 20% increase in stats. This holds true for all gems but spell power which is because spell powers numbers are higher to begin with and 12*1,2=14,4 and will get rounded down. Now the LK JC only gems give 27 of a stat, where the BoE version gives 20. That's a 35% increase in stats. so we will already get a higher benefit from BoP gems in LK than in BC. Assuming there would be ones giving a 270% gain in stats is way over board.

Originally Posted by Mattimeo View Post
At 80, your equivalent item is 55 stamina and 22 agility, but CANNOT be used by anyone but yourself, so to get the level 80 version of nethercleft leg armor you'll have to leatherwork.
If you are writing up an analysis then please do proper research. Some of your analysis is quite good, it's only fault is, that it's based on wrong facts making it useless.

Let's look at the epic leg enchant: [Frosthide Leg Armor]
The item info from Wowhead includes everything we need to know. It tells me 2 things: a) You must be level 80 to use it and b) You can only apply it to your own armor and using it on armor in your possession makes said armor soulbound. What it doesn't say is you are not allowed to trade it to non-LW, nor is it BoP. So it's just like the BC leg enchants. Blizzard just made sure you are not going to use these on some low level twink.

Your info on Blacksmithing is mostly correct. The comparison to JC is faulty for reasons explained above. The rumored meta-gem is what it is, though I wouldn't count on it. The 3 JC-only gems give you at least 21 points of additional stat budget (3x 7 additional stats over 20 stat epic gems), while 2 sockets deliver up to 20 points. So JC has a little edge here which is even bigger in the beginning because I assume (yes this is speculation on my part I admit) that crafted BoE epic gems are not available at the beginning of LK (if they were, it would jeopardize rare gems into oblivion). Add on top of that JC has BoP trinkets, while BS has no BoP items as of yet, as Blizzard made all of them BoE and stated even in a bluepost that they will stay BoE. So a BS only meta-gem could help balance it out. Making JC trinkets BoE would also solve the discrepancy.

I hope I weren't too harsh with my criticism while at the same time clearing up some information.

Edit:
I forgot to mention that in order to craft the LK Prismatic BoP gems you need to do JC daily quests which award [Dalaran Jewelcrafter's Token]. This requirement limits the acquisition rate of these considerably, as they are a currency for new JC recipes (Blizzard did away with naughty world drops).

Last edited by Warrok : 11/09/08 at 10:07 PM.

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