The Protection Guide - Page 91

Quigon · 04/18/08, 4:42 AM

I updated the gear sets and a bit about expertise. Let me know if there are any gaps.

galzohar · 04/18/08, 9:20 AM

With 454 attacks landed on those 3 fights, if bosses had 17% parry, the chance for 0 parries to had been pure luck is 3.2%. If they had 16.5% parry, the chance for it to be just luck was 32%. So while that sample is probably enough to almost certainly rule out 17% parry, it's not a big enough sample to rule out something like 16.5% parry. Of course with that data most chances are the parry isn't higher than 16.25% but more data is needed to be more certain.

ioguolo · 04/18/08, 11:17 AM

Quigon I apologize if my comments came off as "the OP isn't doing his job". This thread is awesome and I don't want to take anything away from how much of a great resource it is. I was just stating that people are throwing numbers around based off the OP w/o reading anything in these threads. Stuff has changed, and people need to be aware of it. And even doing a search doesn't pull up the answer w/o actually just sitting down and reading every post. I think everyone reading these forums just by being here are "better MT's" because they care and want to find the right answers.

Punscho · 04/18/08, 12:22 PM

I think the lower bound type of testing is more interesting since a couple of hundred or even thousand hits without a parry at a high level of expertise does not say that much. E.g. "Still getting parries at 12% reduction." would be more helpful information than "No observed parries with 17% reduction out of 1000 swings".

Nontheless, all contributions are good of course!

Tehehe · 04/18/08, 4:08 PM

I haven't seen much talk about [Nightstrike] as a TPS weapon. I currently use it in my TPS set when I don't mind losing the stam/avoidance from Stoic Guardian. According to the OP's posted value of 1% hit = 11 TPS, this weapon is 18 TPS if you're not dodge capped and 12.5 if you are.

Are there any better options? Are there any calculations on the new armor-pen bow?

galzohar · 04/18/08, 4:18 PM

Well getting a lower bound and an upper bound is just as useful

Getting the lower bound is much easier, though, as a single parry with 15% parry reduction is enough to prove that parry is above 15%, while you'd need an infinite amount of attacks that won't be parry to prove that you completely removed parry from the table (or realistically, enough attacks so that the chance for no parries to had been pure luck to be acceptably low... and that amount of attacks depends on how accurate you're trying to be).

Anyway a couple more parses with 16.25% parry reduction and then some with 16% and 15.75% would probably tell us enough to be quite certain of the value of boss' parry chance.

Sambuca · 04/18/08, 4:18 PM

Hey guys, wondering if someone could help me a bit here. I have been trying to get our GM to throw a shammy into my grp for WF or GOA totem but he complains about losing heroism for the dps if he does. He says its wasted when used in my grp. I usually MT boss fights and we are 3/5 MH, 5/6 SSC, and 3/4 TK to give you an indication as to what we raid. Should I just drop it or keep trying to convince him? We usually have 3-4 shammies in our raids. 1-2 enhance, 1 ele, 1 resto. Thanks in advance.

PS
Great Info here!!

Xav · 04/18/08, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Punscho

I think the lower bound type of testing is more interesting since a couple of hundred or even thousand hits without a parry at a high level of expertise does not say that much. E.g. "Still getting parries at 12% reduction." would be more helpful information than "No observed parries with 17% reduction out of 1000 swings".

Nontheless, all contributions are good of course!

I intend to gradually test the lower bound and take off expertise and see if I still see parries. I'll probably do this coming BT on monday with half wearing 13% and half wearing 14.5% if I can manage it.

Quigon · 04/18/08, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by Sambuca

Hey guys, wondering if someone could help me a bit here. I have been trying to get our GM to throw a shammy into my grp for WF or GOA totem but he complains about losing heroism for the dps if he does. He says its wasted when used in my grp. I usually MT boss fights and we are 3/5 MH, 5/6 SSC, and 3/4 TK to give you an indication as to what we raid. Should I just drop it or keep trying to convince him? We usually have 3-4 shammies in our raids. 1-2 enhance, 1 ele, 1 resto. Thanks in advance.

PS
Great Info here!!

I've had a shaman in the main tanks group since day 1 of molten core. We progressed well with this method. There are times during extreme tweaking to change this, but there is tanking with, and without windfury - and outside of tightly tuned week 1-2 sunwell encounters, you'll be better off with the threat imo.
I think your GM is likely a DPS class who may be catering toward his own viewpoint. I started as a shaman (quigon) so I don't feel too hypocritical with this comment.

Harne · 04/18/08, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by Sambuca

Hey guys, wondering if someone could help me a bit here. I have been trying to get our GM to throw a shammy into my grp for WF or GOA totem but he complains about losing heroism for the dps if he does. He says its wasted when used in my grp. I usually MT boss fights and we are 3/5 MH, 5/6 SSC, and 3/4 TK to give you an indication as to what we raid. Should I just drop it or keep trying to convince him? We usually have 3-4 shammies in our raids. 1-2 enhance, 1 ele, 1 resto. Thanks in advance.

PS
Great Info here!!

Well, he could swap your shaman out for a moment midfight to give bloodlust/heroism and then put him back. If he's worried about the dps lost from the totems, that is a different issue. I personally like having a shaman for Windfury for the extra threat, but I don't get one very often either except on fights where threat might be a big concern. My experience is that as my gear has improved, my avoidance is reaching the point where a long 'unlucky' streak of dodges and parries leaves me pretty rage starved, so having the shaman is handy when I can get it.

galzohar · 04/18/08, 4:53 PM

While running with 5 shamans in the raid is probably optimal, do you really need it for the threat if only 3-4 shamans are available? Does all the new threat gear not cut it? While you can always get more threat to reduce threat capping, when you reduce DPS to increase threat it might not be worth it. I'm just wondering if even when wearing full threat gear you find windfury more beneficial to raid DPS than, say, a GoA to the hunters/cat or a WoA for another lock+shadowpriest+some healers or something like that.

Punscho · 04/18/08, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tehehe

I haven't seen much talk about [Nightstrike] as a TPS weapon. I currently use it in my TPS set when I don't mind losing the stam/avoidance from Stoic Guardian. According to the OP's posted value of 1% hit = 11 TPS, this weapon is 18 TPS if you're not dodge capped and 12.5 if you are.

Are there any better options? Are there any calculations on the new armor-pen bow?

I've been running MGT to get that weapon for my ranged slot. I'm currently using [Serpentshrine Shuriken] for my threat gear but I believe [Nightstrike] would be a nice addition because of the expertise.

Quigon · 04/18/08, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

While running with 5 shamans in the raid is probably optimal, do you really need it for the threat if only 3-4 shamans are available? Does all the new threat gear not cut it? While you can always get more threat to reduce threat capping, when you reduce DPS to increase threat it might not be worth it. I'm just wondering if even when wearing full threat gear you find windfury more beneficial to raid DPS than, say, a GoA to the hunters/cat or a WoA for another lock+shadowpriest+some healers or something like that.

If you bring more than 1 group worth of melee, which is common, even having one additional warrior with windfury will typically beat giving a group of others GoA. The main tank's group is a decent second melee group if necessary - further GoA is a good tanking ability.

Lambach · 04/19/08, 2:12 AM

Its all very dependent on the needs of the raid. Its possible you're raid leader is catering to that in his choices, its possible hes out to lunch. If you're warrior already has great threat, and if healing/tank survivability isnt a problem, then hes probably right, and you could get some dps gain out of giving the shaman to another group. However, if the tank is having threat issues vs your dps, or the goa would help his survivability on a dmg heavy encounter, then switch it up a bit. Its important for him to adjust group comp based on the encounter. (And of course like others have said, rotate the shaman into a dps group for the lust).

Krostas · 04/19/08, 7:41 AM

Originally Posted by Quigon

I updated the gear sets and a bit about expertise. Let me know if there are any gaps.

Greetings!

I have made detailed calculations regarding expertise, namely parryhaste and resulting increased boss damage due to parries.
I would like to share my results with the community, but I feel the topic of expertise as an avoid stat deserves a topic on it's own, since it is also a highly hypothetical topic with my calculations being based on speculations of other players in some parts.
Of course it's also possible (read: very likely) that my calculations contain one or more flaws themselves, thus becoming subject to discussion, development and criticism by the community.

As a rough value for your guide, I present the value of 1% Parry reduction on the Boss being roughly 0,76% reduced effectice parryhaste (and thus by 0,76% reduced overall melee damage on the tank).

Edit: Fixed calculation shows expertise to be even more effective.
Furthermore I did not mention extreme forms of parryhaste that may bring unhealable burst damage on to the tank, causing death or worse. The chance for such forms of parryhaste to occur is heavily decreased by stacking expertise, namely by up to 0,44% (per boss weaponswing!) when reducing the boss parry rate from 10% to 9%.