I hate to be rude, but can't the specific gear questions be taken to the spreadsheets? I mean, asking which is better between any two items comes down to your personal gear at some level, if you go click the link in the first post that takes you to the spreadsheet thread, you can use the spreadsheet to determine this sort of stuff for yourself and help make this thread a bit less cluttered.
Apologies if my post was in the wrong place. I wasn't actually after the comparison, so much as a way to accurately weigh expertise rating versus ap, ie. how much expertise is worth how much ap? I merely put in my items as an example of the lop-sided situation, and why I wanted to get a general idea of their relative value.
I chose this thread because it was my feeling that such a relational value would be a valuable addition to the Compendium. For example, 1 str = 2ap = .5 hit (if under 9%), or however it works out.
In any case, landsoul helpfully provided the conversion I was hoping for (1 expertise rating = 1.44 str) which not only helps me decide between the two gear pieces mentioned, but also informs me for future decisions.
Apologies again, I'll put such future questions in the other thread.
Has dual crusader enchant been explored or modelled in any of the sheets due to the change in whirlwind? Sorry if this has been covered already. I don't believe this was an option in the dps spreadsheet for enchants.
Has dual crusader enchant been explored or modelled in any of the sheets due to the change in whirlwind? Sorry if this has been covered already. I don't believe this was an option in the dps spreadsheet for enchants.
This should go into the spreadsheet threads, and I don't know the answer.
Has dual crusader enchant been explored or modelled in any of the sheets due to the change in whirlwind? Sorry if this has been covered already. I don't believe this was an option in the dps spreadsheet for enchants.
Main hand executioner will still be better than crusader, especially as it is a scaling enchant opposed to a static ap proc. Off-hand, with a 2.6 (most common slow) off-hand is, assuming 1ppm,
( 1 / ( 60 / 2.7 ) ) = 4.5%
chance to proc Crusader per hit. You gain 9.33 extra attacks with the 9 sec Whirlwind (1/2 imp WW), which I believe if my probability maths are correct that
( 1 - ( 1 - .045 ) ^ ( 28 / 3 )
is the probability of those attacks proccing an additional crusader buff in that 1 min, or about a 3% chance. Assuming the best possible case scenario of never straight refreshing the buff, you'll have
( 1.35 ppm ) * ( 20 sec ) / ( 60 sec/min ) = 45%
uptime on a 120 AP proc, or 54 static AP. At this point refer to the spreadsheet, add 66 AP to your model, check DPS, then remove the 54 AP and apply Mongoose to your off-hand. It's clearly now better than Potency for your off-hand, but it will vary case-by-case as to whether or not Mongoose is better than Crusader.
edit: Corrected some numbers, as I forgot to subtract the chance of not proccing in 9.33 attacks from 1.
Has dual crusader enchant been explored or modelled in any of the sheets due to the change in whirlwind? Sorry if this has been covered already. I don't believe this was an option in the dps spreadsheet for enchants.
My sheet covers single or double crusader. Try it. From what I remember seeing in it was only slightly worse than mongoose in the OH even with the lvl 60->70 nerf
thanks for the help bevz. much appreciated. was wondering if you know of a raiding arms warrior that i could armory to give me a better idea for gear and whatnot(most arms warriors are in vengeful, so i cant really go by that). also was wondering why cat's swiftness rather than 12 agility.
Apologies if my post was in the wrong place. I wasn't actually after the comparison, so much as a way to accurately weigh expertise rating versus ap, ie. how much expertise is worth how much ap? I merely put in my items as an example of the lop-sided situation, and why I wanted to get a general idea of their relative value.
I chose this thread because it was my feeling that such a relational value would be a valuable addition to the Compendium. For example, 1 str = 2ap = .5 hit (if under 9%), or however it works out.
In any case, landsoul helpfully provided the conversion I was hoping for (1 expertise rating = 1.44 str) which not only helps me decide between the two gear pieces mentioned, but also informs me for future decisions.
Apologies again, I'll put such future questions in the other thread.
No worries, I don't mind posts asking about relative values etc, as long as you make it a general question instead of one that seems specific to your gear, or to gear in general.
Originally Posted by landsoul
any chance my in development 2.4 sheet can get a link on the front page, would be appreciated.
thanks for the help bevz. much appreciated. was wondering if you know of a raiding arms warrior that i could armory to give me a better idea for gear and whatnot(most arms warriors are in vengeful, so i cant really go by that). also was wondering why cat's swiftness rather than 12 agility.
Cat's swiftness versus 12 agility is right in the first post, quoted from an enhancement shammy thread. long story short, if you're spending more than around 4.5 seconds moving (ie chasing adds, running out of an aoe, repositioning yourself etc) runspeed is superior.
thanks for the help bevz. much appreciated. was wondering if you know of a raiding arms warrior that i could armory to give me a better idea for gear and whatnot(most arms warriors are in vengeful, so i cant really go by that). also was wondering why cat's swiftness rather than 12 agility.
Not sure if that link works but if you want something to aim at thats the best setup pre-sunwell that you can get imo. Get two blues in your shoulder/belt and fill every other slot out with 5str/5crit. (With head enchant it will put you over the hit cap, was just too lazy to add it:p)
Im not sure if you mean most arms warriors are wearing pvp gear but you will generally see maybe 1 or 2 vengeful pieces on your average raiding warrior. Obviously the stuff aint great but its an awesome alternative while your waiting for drops.
Edit; just checked ur armoury and you have some pretty damn good fury gear already. Just drop some hit from either your chest, legs or ranged and your good to go.
how much of a fury warriors dps is white dmg like a bit over 50%ish?
That is entierly gear dependant.
The better gear you have the more heroic strikes you can use and as such the less your white damage will be.
At the start of the expansion (in the first raid content) my white ratio was probably about 65%. Nowdays it is about 35-45%
Great that the advice helped! Not that I'm an expert on rogues, but I thought WF was the best totem also for them (better than having poison on the MH). Maybe someone else at EJ forums know for sure.
If there's a Warrior in the group, Windfury is always the answer. From the Roguecraft thread,
for PvE, always choose DP on the offhand. If you are in a group with a shaman and you're combat, you'll get more DPS from Windfury as opposed to Grace of Air + IP. However, the difference is not as dramatic as it is for, say, a DPS warrior. If your group contains a DPS warrior, Windfury Totem will usually be dropped. Otherwise, if less than half the group is rogues, Grace of Air Totem will probably be dropped and you should use IP on the MH.
In most cases, if your rogues don't want WF, they're probably doing something wrong. #1 Rogue in the guild or not, if you're a DPS warrior in the group, you should get WF.
If there's a Warrior in the group, Windfury is always the answer. From the Roguecraft thread, In most cases, if your rogues don't want WF, they're probably doing something wrong. #1 Rogue in the guild or not, if you're a DPS warrior in the group, you should get WF.
I am not so sure this is accurate. If you take a long look at the Enhancement Shaman Thread you will see some mathcrafing from one of the more frequent posters (toots) there illustrate the actual benefits broken down by class of WF v. GoA.
I did not run the math myself so I won't insist on it's validity, but it at least seemed to make sense to me. In the end, if the 1.8%(personal dps) increase a Fury gets from WF over GoA isn't greater than the 3%(feral+enh dps) in a 2 rogue, 1 fury 1 feral 1 enh group set up, your statement may be incorrect.
WF vs GoA is rather moot. As it still isn't fixed, and isn't considered an exploit, any enh sham worth their salt knows how to twist totems. If they don't, well..
WF vs GoA is rather moot. As it still isn't fixed, and isn't considered an exploit, any enh sham worth their salt knows how to twist totems. If they don't, well..
I am not so sure this is accurate. If you take a long look at the Enhancement Shaman Thread you will see some mathcrafing from one of the more frequent posters (toots) there illustrate the actual benefits broken down by class of WF v. GoA.
I did not run the math myself so I won't insist on it's validity, but it at least seemed to make sense to me. In the end, if the 1.8%(personal dps) increase a Fury gets from WF over GoA isn't greater than the 3%(feral+enh dps) in a 2 rogue, 1 fury 1 feral 1 enh group set up, your statement may be incorrect.
What you quoted has a) made-up numbers and b) numbers not even close to what you said. Fury warriors get quite a bit more DPS from WF than 1.8% more than what GoA gives. WF may only give 20% more damage to ~60% of a fury warrior's attacks (HS and melee), but that alone is 12% more damage than not having WF. GoA is almost 3% more damage than baseline.
I've recently been asked to go blood frenzy/MS/slam for sunwell to help our raid DPS. Before this I was 17/44 spec for raids, so I don't have much experience with it. I'm trying to get the rotation down listed on the first page, special/white-slam/special/white-slam etc etc. I have a few questions though...
- I'm using quartz swing timer, and its frankly terrible. It only shows the swing timer after I slam. So when I go up to attack, I wait to see my char swing and then I slam. Then I can see the swing timer, and when it counts down to 0 it disappears, then I slam again. This is manageable unless I get off the rotation on accident, then if I slam I'm not sure when to slam next, I have to time off the white damage or just press it at random. I'm pretty sure this messes up my damage. Anyone know of a better mod that works for every swing??
- as far as gear goes my armory is on the left, but stat wise, with cat's edge, kings, and mark, in zerker stance, i have:
1994AP
107HR (we run with a boomkin for 3% hit, so I figured that is enough based on the #'s on the 1st page)
33.5% crit
1322 armor pen
I know that the 4% buff helps the raid (atm, we have 12 physical dmg dealers incl. tanks). With no consumables, CoReck, druid (LoTP) and enh. shaman in group, I'm doing like 11-1200dps. This seems really low. Spreadsheet with the buffs I have says that I should be at 1538.6 dps. Thats a big difference. So is this because of my gear? Or my rotation not being optimized? And when if ever should I heroic strike? Right now I'm waiting until I have 80+ rage to queue up a HS cause I don't want to be rage starved. Is that bad?
Edit: couple more brutallus attempts I've got it up to 1300range but that still seems low.
I've recently been asked to go blood frenzy/MS/slam for sunwell to help our raid DPS. Before this I was 17/44 spec for raids, so I don't have much experience with it. I'm trying to get the rotation down listed on the first page, special/white-slam/special/white-slam etc etc. I have a few questions though...
- I'm using quartz swing timer, and its frankly terrible. It only shows the swing timer after I slam. So when I go up to attack, I wait to see my char swing and then I slam. Then I can see the swing timer, and when it counts down to 0 it disappears, then I slam again. This is manageable unless I get off the rotation on accident, then if I slam I'm not sure when to slam next, I have to time off the white damage or just press it at random. I'm pretty sure this messes up my damage. Anyone know of a better mod that works for every swing??
- as far as gear goes my armory is on the left, but stat wise, with cat's edge, kings, and mark, in zerker stance, i have:
1994AP
107HR (we run with a boomkin for 3% hit, so I figured that is enough based on the #'s on the 1st page)
33.5% crit
1322 armor pen
I know that the 4% buff helps the raid (atm, we have 12 physical dmg dealers incl. tanks). With no consumables, CoReck, druid (LoTP) and enh. shaman in group, I'm doing like 11-1200dps. This seems really low. Spreadsheet with the buffs I have says that I should be at 1538.6 dps. Thats a big difference. So is this because of my gear? Or my rotation not being optimized? And when if ever should I heroic strike? Right now I'm waiting until I have 80+ rage to queue up a HS cause I don't want to be rage starved. Is that bad?
Edit: couple more brutallus attempts I've got it up to 1300range but that still seems low.
Brutallus is not a particularly melee friendly fight as he has high armor perhaps more armor than 7700?
On our Brutallus kill yesterday I was hovering below 1500 dps (not sure how accurate the recount was and having problems with the wws parse but I have frapsed it) with a group consisting of BM Hunter, enhancement shaman twisting totems, 2 rogues and me, maintaining drums of battle throughout and dropping in drums of war, using elixir of demonslaying plus agility/str scrolls and str food.
With your gear plus less consumables your dps is around the mark expected. It's always better to err on the side of caution when using heroic strike which you have stated you do.
It's worth bearing in mind that as this fight is balls to the wall dps the extra 4% damage your tanks do *can* help your casters if they are threat capped (which they should be).
I've recently been asked to go blood frenzy/MS/slam for sunwell to help our raid DPS. Before this I was 17/44 spec for raids, so I don't have much experience with it. I'm trying to get the rotation down listed on the first page, special/white-slam/special/white-slam etc etc. I have a few questions though...
- I'm using quartz swing timer, and its frankly terrible. It only shows the swing timer after I slam. So when I go up to attack, I wait to see my char swing and then I slam. Then I can see the swing timer, and when it counts down to 0 it disappears, then I slam again. This is manageable unless I get off the rotation on accident, then if I slam I'm not sure when to slam next, I have to time off the white damage or just press it at random. I'm pretty sure this messes up my damage. Anyone know of a better mod that works for every swing??
Definitely get a working swing timer and practice timing your Slam hits to near-perfection. If you're not used to this, it might take some time to get into the rhythm. With top-end gear (which it sounds like you have), consistently missing even 1/10th of a second on your Slam timing can shave off as much as 40 from your overall DPS. If you're consistently missing by as much as half or a full second, that will simply crush your overall DPS. Pretty much your entire rotation needs to revolve around getting your Slams timed perfectly.
If you want to practice this solo, keep in mind that any parries you do will screw up your swing timing.
Definitely get a working swing timer and practice timing your Slam hits to near-perfection. If you're not used to this, it might take some time to get into the rhythm. With top-end gear (which it sounds like you have), consistently missing even 1/10th of a second on your Slam timing can shave off as much as 40 from your overall DPS. If you're consistently missing by as much as half or a full second, that will simply crush your overall DPS. Pretty much your entire rotation needs to revolve around getting your Slams timed perfectly.
If you want to practice this solo, keep in mind that any parries you do will screw up your swing timing.
Have you done much tracking of your hit -> slam delay?
I was using Slammer pre-2.4 and was pretty consistently around .7 (.2s past the cast time) on a tank/spank fight, but around 1s pretty frequently, too. Then there were the flukes showing .13 and such which must be a bug in the WF/Sword Spec detection.
Hopefully someone can make something like that mod, update it, or make quartz better.
I've only gone off what theorycrafting tells me, which says that mistiming your slams screws you over hardcore (which is pretty obvious). If there's a working mod for 2.4 I'd love to try it out.
As an aside, one of my buddy's buddies had a mod that would yell a random obscenity at you if you missed your slam by more than 0.3s. I never did get to try it, but I get the feeling you'd get awful good at timing slams using something like this.
03/20/08, 4:38 AM
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