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Old 03/14/08, 3:15 PM   #151
Recab
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Warrior
 
<FH>
Black Dragonflight
A few questions regarding my current weapons. I'm currently using Dragonstrike/Talon. I know that there are better options for an OH per the spread-sheet. But the spread sheet does not seem to be taking in the flurry "bug" on account of adding dps, or the fact that the human racial is currently bugged.
Currently our guild has everything on farm with the exception of Illidan and I can whip up a 1850 2v2 team for s3 weapons if needed. Do you guys think it would be worth the time/effort/dkp to upgrade my weapons or should I just wait until 2.4 to pick up the fist weapons?

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Old 03/14/08, 5:23 PM   #152
Voxx
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Warlock
 
Whisperwind
Thanks for keeping the thread alive with posts, I'll get to work on a gear section when I can put some more time into it. This week's been stuffed full of exams so I've not had the chance yet.

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Old 03/15/08, 1:55 AM   #153
issei
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Kalecgos
Originally Posted by Recab View Post
A few questions regarding my current weapons. I'm currently using Dragonstrike/Talon. I know that there are better options for an OH per the spread-sheet. But the spread sheet does not seem to be taking in the flurry "bug" on account of adding dps, or the fact that the human racial is currently bugged.
Currently our guild has everything on farm with the exception of Illidan and I can whip up a 1850 2v2 team for s3 weapons if needed. Do you guys think it would be worth the time/effort/dkp to upgrade my weapons or should I just wait until 2.4 to pick up the fist weapons?
The 2.4 badge fist weapons are actually worse than the s3 2.6 1-handers, especially if your character is of a race that can take advantage of expertise bonuses.

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Old 03/15/08, 2:35 AM   #154
Shha
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Scilla
Dragonstrike is the best weapon save for warglaives for MH. There is nothing coming close to the haste it offers really;/
For OH i think s3 is still the best presunwell choice.

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Old 03/15/08, 9:00 AM   #155
Recab
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Warrior
 
<FH>
Black Dragonflight
Thank you for the info but my question is still unanswered.

Would using a s3 offhand outweigh the same-weapon extra charge of flurry i gain from using talon?

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Old 03/15/08, 9:23 AM   #156
Mjollnir
Don Flamenco
 
Pojung
Undead Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Recab View Post
weapon extra charge of flurry
If I'm not mistaken, this is not the case. Even with identical speed weapons, you will end up having MH/OH swings split. Even with a 2.7/2.7 setup (for example), you will not retain a simultaneous strike over the course of a boss fight.
The main advantages to slow/slow MH/OH setup are: bigger WW values, Deep Wounds is worth more and potentially ticks for longer, and extra Flurry *when* MH/OH speeds are matched.
None of the 3 listed truly boost your dps by more than a couple pennies.

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Old 03/15/08, 9:45 AM   #157
Shha
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Scilla
Tbh this "same speed weapon" extra flurry doesnt seem to work in reality for me. I tested it in blasted lands, when i just recently switched to dragonstrike from 2xs3. My flurry uptime went UP, although just a little. Mind it, I was testing it with a friend to attack from behind, and avoid parries.

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Old 03/15/08, 10:00 AM   #158
Recab
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Warrior
 
<FH>
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Mjollnir View Post
If I'm not mistaken, this is not the case. Even with identical speed weapons, you will end up having MH/OH swings split. Even with a 2.7/2.7 setup (for example), you will not retain a simultaneous strike over the course of a boss fight.
The main advantages to slow/slow MH/OH setup are: bigger WW values, Deep Wounds is worth more and potentially ticks for longer, and extra Flurry *when* MH/OH speeds are matched.
None of the 3 listed truly boost your dps by more than a couple pennies.
I've been using the same two weapons for over 6 months now and I've yet to ever see my weapon attacks "split", can you please post where you received the information that your MH/OH will split when using same speed weapons?

Thanks.

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Old 03/15/08, 10:02 AM   #159
Shha
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Scilla
They split if YOU parry, thus the blasted lands mobs testing, most people use needs to be very careful to avoid this effect.

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Old 03/15/08, 10:07 AM   #160
Recab
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Warrior
 
<FH>
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Shha View Post
They split if YOU parry, thus the blasted lands mobs testing, most people use needs to be very careful to avoid this effect.
This leads back to my original question, would using a S3 or 2.4-badge weapon be worth losing the extra flurry charge?

The spreadsheet does not list this effect, which puts me in a bit of a rough spot.

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Old 03/15/08, 11:28 AM   #161
Mjollnir
Don Flamenco
 
Pojung
Undead Druid
 
No WoW Account
Correct, about the parries that is. That's all I am familiar with. I'm not sure if lag can break simultaneous strikes or WF procs due to lag either.

Talon pros: 1 25% hastened 'gain'. Flurry uptime usually being around 80-85%. 80% being more conservative. 96dps not counting stats.
s3 pros: Other option being 103dps not counting stats.

'Strike is a mace, Talon a sword = full racial benefits. S3 I'd assume would be either of the two for the same reasons.

25% x .8 = 20% 'consistent' haste gain from OH for a simultaneous strike. 6 swings during a usual 5.
Talon: 260.5 avg strike: 5 + 1 freebie = 1563
s3: 268 avg strike: 5 strikes = 1340

What this model doesn't take into account is partial Flurried swings, which would weigh favorably for the s3. Also, there is better stat allocation on the Talon. This being napkin math of weapon dps only.

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Old 03/15/08, 12:31 PM   #162
Shha
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Scilla
Well there are multiple things affecting flurry, most not even perfectly investigated. However to nail some of them.

Even if we assume that taalon gives you one extra swing's CHANCE to proc flurry its not not changing that much.

Using the typical 1-(1-c)^4 for 40% crit rate raid buffed (i sport a lot more but lets start on lower side) Flurry uptime = 87%. In fact its lower becuse of the bug (Last flurry charge bug). But lets assume its not there (going to be fixed in 2.4).

Adding 1 swing because of synced weapons, would make it 1-(1-c)^5. Flurry uptime = 92%. We gained 5% flurry uptime, which turns our attack speed from 1+25%*87% to 1+25%*92% or 1.2175 to 1.23. Thats ONE percent more attacks. In this scenario matching weapon speeds added AT MOST one percent white swings. Being that they provde 70% of your damage, we can say its 0.7% more damage. Given how i do around 2k dps on typical tank and spank encounter, I would gain 14 dps. (in fact less, because my crit rate is higher, and flurry has diminishing returns when it comes to that).

What are the "cons". Well worse weapon would be one of it. Stats alone talon has 15 more agility 6 ap and 12 hit vs 21 crit and 49 ArP. In general 15 agility with kings = 11 crit and 49 ArP = 30ap. So its 12 hit vs 10 crit and 24 ap. Hit is valued at 0.6 of crit so more or less you lose 3 crit and 24 ap by going towards talon, to round it up assume its 30 ap. 30ap is more or less 0.6% of your dps (assuming 5k "effective ap" which comes from adding ap + weapon damage). So talon advantage went down to 5.6 dps. Now the pure white swings from OH ... talon has 7 dps less. 7 dps x average haste of 1.35 with dragonstrike/dst/heroism/haste. thats 9.5dps. Multiply it by OH penalty and its around 5.9dps. And thats not counting crits.

Also to note. Current bug with last charge of flurry not being refreshed from white hits, greatly reduces "matched" weapons effectiveness. Just imagine - 2.6x2 weapon, and you start with flurry.

0.0 2 swings - 1 charge left
2.6 2 swings - flurry drops off. It doesnt matter if you critted or not, it just drops because of bug.

if you had 2.6.+2.7

0.0 2 swings - 1 charge left
2.6 flurry drops off no matter what
2.7 flurry has chance of proccing (40% in the example).

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Old 03/15/08, 12:35 PM   #163
Mjollnir
Don Flamenco
 
Pojung
Undead Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Shha View Post
2.7 flurry has chance of proccing (40% in the example).
I ignored this. You would have a much greater Flurry uptime due to sync'ed weapons alongside making more use of Flurry.
Also, ya, dunno why I said Talon was better itemized. I had just woke up perhaps?

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Old 03/15/08, 3:18 PM   #164
Oliria
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Warrior
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
I have to ask now..

I am a human warrior, I use S2/talon atm, hoping for blade of infamy - but im very curious about the human racial bug, will it remain? or do blizzard have plans about fixing it in the near future..

according to spreadsheet none of the maces I can get (sun king, syphon, ehm..) but should I get a S2 mace? instead of my S2 sword.. I would ofc like S3 - but Im not much of a PvP'er, and I find it boring so not really up for getting my rating up (might wait for S4 and see if the requirement is within limits)

what do you guys think? just keep the swords and go for blade of infamy, or get some kind of mace?

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Old 03/15/08, 6:47 PM   #165
Machinator
Don Flamenco
 
Troll Warrior
 
Aggramar
Originally Posted by Mjollnir View Post
I ignored this. You would have a much greater Flurry uptime due to sync'ed weapons alongside making more use of Flurry.
Also, ya, dunno why I said Talon was better itemized. I had just woke up perhaps?
Much greater uptime is a bit of an overstatement. You are probably around 80-90% unsynced anyway. Synced weapons only give give you that extra charge if you dont crit in the time of 3 swings anyway.

"Information is ammunition."

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