Machinator

I have collected a bunch of expertise gear that no one else needed, can anyone think of a good place to test this outside a 25 man? If it is non-linear I dont know how to find the expected dodge value of something like a servant in blasted lands.
Also do you have links to where the other compendiums got their data?

"Information is ammunition."

 

Rezarel

The best discussion I could find was back in the old Weapon Skill thread. It wasn't very conclusive though.

I think the only way to test would be to find a boss you can beat on for a while -- Onyxia, ZG snake boss, whatever -- and try with increasing expertise until you no longer get any dodges. As soon as you see a dodge, reset the fight and adjust your gear to get one higher expertise. Repeat until you lose patience, and that's the expertise cap :-)

 

Bersi

As stated in the spreadsheet thread HERE the expertise cap seems to be 6,5%.

 

Graul

Are you referring to this seemingly sarcastic remark?

 

Gruntle

The best way of testing it conclusively would be to do what was done for base miss chance some time ago (when it was found out that the base miss chance was really 9% rather than 8.6). Equip enough expertise gear to be just below an assumed dodge chance (try 6.5 since 5.6 already seems to have been disproven). This means equipping exactly 25 expertise skill (99 rating without any talents/racials, 67 with WM, 48 with WM+racial) and then go whack bosses in this gear. Check the WWS for number of attacks and the number of dodges and post here when you have accrued a good number of swings (>10000 will give a really good confidence limit if you have a few dodges). Then do the same with exactly 26 expertise and get the same number of swings. I should be able to test it myself once I get my hands on SoC, but that will probably take some time.

This is easier to test than miss chance, since there are less buffs/debuffs that affect dodge chances, so it should be easier to do the testing in a normal raid setting.

 

Cavein

Here's the WWS from our Hyjal / BT clear last night. You can observe I saw no dodges on any boss other than Mother due to shadow resistance gear.

I was using Shard of Contempt plus Onslaught Belt giving me an Expertise value of 17 (-4.25%). This plus 2% less dodge from weapon mastery would give only 6.25% less swings dodged and would therefore show dodges on the WWS if the dodge chance was 6.5%.

I have yet to see any evidence (other than anecdotal) to suggest anything other than the 5.6% value and assume that the dps spreadsheet dodge chance is mistyped if it is listed as 6.5%.

 

Cavein

Sorry.

 

Gruntle

Using this calculator (Exact Confidence Interval for a Proportion)...

edit: see my post on next page, this was clearly wrong due to including trash in figures, missing 2 dodges in the numbers and using the wws stats wrongly, I clearly need to think before I post.

 

Voxx

I'm flexible to the idea that information I've posted in this thread is wrong, just so long as there's solid evidence that I'm wrong. If someone can come up with near undeniable evidence and testing that the dodge chance is something other than 5.6%, post it here and I'll take a look and fix my post. Until then I'm leaving it at 5.6%.

 

Machinator

WWS isnt up yet but I did some testing quick last night on a couple bosses. I have 2/2 Weapon Mastery, and used [Shard of Contempt] and [Gloves of the Searing Grip]. This totals to 15 expertise, so -3.75% dodges, with WM -5.75% dodge. I still had a couple dodges come up, so either its higher than 5.75% or the mechanic works differently than we thought like the two tables for specials or something.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Cryforequanimity

So, I'm new here. This seems to be a cardinal sin, so excuse me if I throw you guys off track.

I was just removed from the wonderful chatroom here for having a differing opinion of some know-it-all named Xi, who was solid in his belief that fury warriors are a joke, although he'd never played one. But I digress.

My guild is only just stepping into T-5 content, so I'm not sure I see the whole picture here, but I've done well thus far when it comes to being useful in a raid setting, does this usefullness end after Gruul's and Mag?

Will I be useful into SSC, TK, and later BT, Hyjal and Sunwell, or was this guy from the IRC chat right?

 

Rezarel

Aximous in the Enhance Shaman thread reports dodges at 6% dodge reduction.

 

• Fogbug

Sort of; as a fury warrior you'll contribute less overall DPS than an arms warrior, assuming only one warrior slot - if your raid already has a blood frenzy warrior then fury spec is the ideal spec for additional DPS warriors, but you'll still do less DPS than an equally geared/experienced rogue.

On the other hand, you'll make a much better offtank than a rogue would while doing much more DPS than a feral druid. If your guild typically takes you in addition to a blood frenzy warrior then you should stay fury, but if you're the sole DPS warrior then you might want to consider going arms. You'll still be "useful" regardless, just not ideal.

 

• Mjollnir

Provided the difference between raid gain + personal dps as arms > personal dps as fury. Albeit this has been rehashed to death, it's worth still pointing out.
There are plenty of guilds out there who run with a caster-heavy makeup.

 

Cryforequanimity

That's kind of our situation. We have no enhancement shamans, 2 or 3 rogues, and me for melee dps. At what point should I look into switching arms? What kind of a group makeup would benefit more from me being arms?

I'll try to get ahold of a WWS later and post it...maybe someone can pick it apart later. But what sort of numbers should our dpsers be pulling in at entry-level T5? I can usually pull ~700dps or so. At this point, we're still pulling the last few people though the ends of Kara and ZA, and I'm considered a major portion of the dps effort. As far as I can tell, it shouldn't be that way.

I'm not trying to brag, but everyone everywhere tells me rogues (and others) should be crushing me, and I'm not seeing it.

 

• Snowy

To be quite honest, it may not be because you're good, it may be because your rogues are mediocre (or worse.) Remember that most statements here assume that both parties are playing at an optimized level.

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah

 

Nurru

This is what we like to call an "Arcane Mage Fallacy"

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Cryforequanimity

Please elaborate.

So our rogues might be terribad. If I put a WWS here, would that help me to know what the issue is?

 

XI-

The arcane mage fallacy is the idea that one's spec/gear/etc is good, because they are outperforming those around them, despite mathematical proof to the contrary.

 

◊ castille

Here's an elaboration:

Going through all your rogues, we don't have a single full combat rogue -- and, in fact, we have one guy who I am praying against all hopes is seriously wearing some 'f u armory' ItemRack ensemble, because otherwise..

Looking at your mages, we've got a basically full arcane, a pom/pyro, a pvp frost, and an AP/Firepower mage (a little better, but still not quite where it needs to be)

Do I need to go on? You're crushing people who are not using DPS specs and show little base understanding of their personal gearing. As a matter of fact, I would dare say you could probably spec prot in your current gear and out DPS these rogues and mages in anything not consistently 4+ AoE pulls.

The 'Arcane Mage Fallacy' is the 'I spec'd arcane and I SEEM to be doing more DPS than everyone else,' when it just has to do with who you're grouping with, not the spec or your gear.

 

Ricard

Looking that over, you had two dodges that were not in the Shahraz fight. 4 slams total, 2 in Shahraz. So, you weren't expertise capped, just lucky.

 

• landsoul

Cavein's Overall WWS has Vengeance (tank Trinket), thunderclap, and shield spike damage, which clearly indicates he was offtanking, making it an incorrect claim based off the fact that his evidence is tainted.

Arms offtanks also use mortal strike and auto attack to tank, am I correct?

 

Cryforequanimity

Okay, thank you for taking the time to look into my guildmates.

Now I'm not sure what to do. I'm not the GM, and I dunno how to go about telling people they're playing/gearing their class wrong. Hrm.

That's neither here nor there. Thank you for the help.

 

orcsgotbooty

You might also want to invest in some vortexes to upgrade your mh and some gems to replace your agi and dodge ones.

 

Cryforequanimity

Yeah, I do need to replace those gems, I'd meant to do it and it slipped my mind.

I'm saving up badges for the two fist weapons, and at that point I'll probably drop BS and pick up engineering.

Vortexes aren't cheap now, there's not a lot of them available on my server. When I do save up for them, they'll go towards a RBoB.