Kaoz

Why does haste, in Grim13's spreadsheet, show as being 20% superior to crit on a rating to rating basis?

If that is actually right, the compendium needs to be adjusted.

 

• landsoul

Thats aweful odd, usually crit climbs with haste in SEP as gear goes up, at least in my sheet.

 

Kaoz

I've done some napkin math, and it seems logical that haste should toast crit in SEP. You need 40% more crit rating to get a 1% crit versus 1% haste comparison. Now how much of your damage is white/heroics?

I also don't know the full impact of haste. Some day it increases the PPM of enchants, some say it increases overall rage generation more.

Basically, we need a solid 1% haste versus 1% crit comparison and crit has to win by a 40% margin.

Btw, I'm talking very high end gear here.

 

Voxx

Technically, haste increases rage generation, decreases Flurry uptime (under the same idea that slower weapons = higher Flurry uptime) and has no effect on PPM mechanics.

Crit increases Flurry uptime, increases rage generation (in a spiky way however) and also has no effect on PPM.

Things to note about both:
Crit is always at least a 100% increase on damage for that swing (more with Impale and RED)
Haste is guaranteed extra damage, the extra attack gained from 1% Haste is subject to the entire attack table and therefore could be a glancing, or a miss, or alternately could be a crit.

Haste affects all of your white damage, none of your instant attack damage, and a minor effect on Heroic Strike (due to increased rage generation) damage unless you have enough rage to Heroic Strike every mainhand swing. Giving a very rough estimate, I'd guess it affects around 40% of your damage, with an additional 1% of your Heroic Strike damage for every 1% of Haste. I.e 1% Haste should average to around 1% more rage generated long-term, therefore 1% more Heroic Strikes.

Crit affects all of your damage that isn't already a crit, excluding the 25% of your white damage that is glancing. This should be something like 50% of your damage(?) assuming 40% is from white damage and you have a 40% crit chance.

The way I see it, crit has a slightly higher value than Haste, and affects slightly more of your damage than Haste, however it comes at a higher cost. 22 rating vs 16 rating. I'm too tired right now to try and actually validate any of the above or to go into any further detail and thus there's a good chance that most of the above is blatantly wrong. I'll sleep on it.

 

Graul

Wouldn't the uptime be the same comparatively speaking? I guess you would get less instant attacks in between Flurried swings under additonal haste effects than without, but the increase in Heroic Strike speed (and a greater chance to crit as opposed to a glance or miss) should somewhat even that effect out shouldn't it?

 

Gruntle

I don't know where those to slams that were dodged and not in the Mother fight came from (can't access all of the individual boss fight on the wws properly).

(((I based my statistics on white swings only where there were no dodges in ~3300 swings, so I missed the dodges on slam. Including slam in the statistics adds another 868 swings and 2 dodges (no swings in the Mother fight counted => 4184 swings 2 dodges. Then the dodge chance is 95% likely to be within the [6.26%, 6.42%] interval. Still. I'd like to see where those 2 dodges slams came from.)))

That he was offtanking part of the time is not important as long as he had the same amount of expertise all the time.

edit: numbers completely wrong in this post, I read the wws wrong. Triple parenthesis marks the part of my post that is pure bullshit

 

Cavein

My expertise drops to 5 (orc expertise) when offtanking and depending on when the add(s) I'm tanking are killed I usually swap back to a 2-hander so slamming etc and so I can also lose that 5 expertise bonus.

However, the two slam dodges are recorded at Gurtogg Bloodboil and Reliquary of Souls where I can guarantee I had the same values of expertise.

So doesn't look like I was dodge capped after all!

Finally managed to get the log browser working WWS Dodge Report for Actor Cavein.

For fury warriors there should be a decrease in flurry uptime as haste only effects their white hits (assuming they have enough rage to keep their specials on cooldown).

For slam warriors the whole rotation is hasted as they do not chase global cooldowns until the 2.5 second swing speed soft cap. So until that point relative flurry uptime should be the same (ie. in terms of time flurry uptime will be lower but in terms of affected swings it should be the same).

Beyond the point of the 2.5 second swing time there would be a decrease in flurry uptime but this should only happen under special circumstances (bloodlust / heroism, haste potion) and the relative benefit of flurry would be diminished if you kept to a normal slam rotation.

 

• Mjollnir

You neglected to factor in WF procs. This is important as it is our biggest external DPS boost. Arguably it's rather moot as Flurry increases attack speed, and thus more opportunities for procs, while haste provides a static increase of the same.
I also think your aside on Heroic Striking deserves some further exposure. Again, it falls into the senario mentioned with crit producing Flurry and thus increasing attack speed, whereas haste provides a static gain.
I think it does deserve some mathmatical modelling, as it really does seem rather close, and has been highly argued but never dis/proven.

 

Kaoz

The 2.4 Fury dps thread is also discussing the effects of haste. The impact of this research could turn the warrior DPS world upside down. Heck, even the melee dps world.

http://elitistjerks.com/698186-post168.html

 

• landsoul

My research has haste and crit fairly close at high gear levels, and crit being greater than haste at lower levels, with haste and crit increasing in value, and haste increasing in value at a greater rate, eventually minorly passing, crit.

Also, I have stated an assumption regarding dodge chance. It could possibly work like spellcasting missrate in which you could not reduce the chance to less than 1%. For example if you had 5.75% dodge removal from expertise, you would still get dodged 1% of the time, with the base chance still being 5.6%. This idea fits in well with some of the tests done that revealed a ~.9% dodge rate while assumedly expertise capped.

 

Grayson Carlyle

I'd like to know where the 3300 number on all bosses except Mother comes from... His full report shows 1831 hits (which includes glances) 997 crits, 15 parries and 6 dodges. The total doesn't even come to 3000.

Can you do a confidence interval with those numbers instead?

 

Langie

As you can see in this WWS i got only 1 dodge the hole evening in Sunwell and i have 6% anti dodge (Trinket, Talent & Orc). If the % of dodge remains 1% after cap, wouldn´t we see more dodges?

 

Gruntle

Sorry, my estimate was really sloppy. Will redo and edit my first post. Was to lazy to go through the report and add up all boss fights so I included trash in my figures which is obviously wrong.

I thought the 1831 figure (landed hits) did not include crits, glances, parries, dodges or misses? My 3316 figure comes from adding 1831+997 (crits) + 511 (glance) + 146 (misses, dodges, parries) - (the same in the mother fight). Looking at the wws again I see that Landed hits does include glances but not crits nor parries. I need the total number of swings (i.e. normal hits+glancing hits+crits+dodges+parries+misses) for all boss fights, does the final figure you give include dodges, parries and misses (I guess it does I can't get the numbers to match up otherwise)?

Using these figures we get a 95% confidence limit interval of [6.27%,6.67%]. Need more swings to pinpoint it but 6.5% is well within the limits for now and 5.6% is definitely out.

 

Orcheon

Hey, i'm going to be going Fury quite soon. Are they any upgrades that are large besides the 4(sigh) pieces of pvp gear I still wear?

I plan on replacing those pieces with the council helm, the t6 shoulders and chest, the akama gloves and the bloodboil or archimonde pants. Any other suggestions? This is all pre-sunwell stuff, as sadly we still haven't touched it because we had to rebuild a little bit.
The World of Warcraft Armory

This is *mostly* what i'm looking at, besides DST because Shard for some reason isn't on warcrafter--i've already ran some numbers, and Maxdps agrees with me that Shard is better than DST, however crazy that might sound.

70 Human Warrior

 

• Mjollnir

It's not crazy at all. The whole point of hiting the 9% hit cap is so your specials never miss. However, they can still dodge/parry. With shard and WM you can reduce dodged specials by 4.75%. Now you're dealing with 1-2% of all special attacks that do not connect with a mob for w/e reason. The proc for AP is the tradeoff for a DST's haste proc. Obviously the latter is superior, but bundled it's Shard ftw hands-down.

 

Gruntle

I really don't think you should be asking gear questions in this thread, download one of the spreadsheets to find the answer yourself (and ask in those threads if you feel unsure). Don't trust maxdps for anything, it's just not accurate at all for warrior dps. This thread should (in my opinion) guide DPS warriors into using their abilities properly and how to select gear on a general basis. If people start asking questions of the "should I wear DST or SoD" type this thread will be swamped with those questions instead of dealing with more interesting stuff.

So, basically only post in this thread if you want something to be added, changed or want something clarified in the DPS compendium (ok, I'm guilty as charged, we should probably move the dodge chance discussions somewhere else).

 

Serpentine

To be honest i quiet confused my self how to choose my gear.
I mean we all know that hit is not as good as AP after 9% hit cap but things arent black and white.
for exmaple you got bracers with 20 crit 14 hit and 30 ap.
now you get secound bracers with 23 crit and 35 ap but no hit at all.
what bracers would you choose? (consider you are hit capped).
I would like to ask someone to post tsome guide on how much each stats worth in dps values.
(like X ap = X hit = X dps incrase ) or something like that.

 

• Mjollnir

I spent the better part of yesterday afternoon trying to track down a revisited Crusader Enchant for OH vs. Mongoose. I remember seeing a post backed with data about a month ago but failed to find it.
If anyone has a link it would be appreciated, and perhaps the information could be included in the OP.

 

mogun

I don't think this is the case. We have a rogue in our guild that has -6.75% dodges. SoC (2.75), Belt of One Hundred Deaths (1.5), 10 expertise from Weapon Expertise (2.5). In the last raids (since he got SoC) he never got any dodge.

Here are some logs from Brutallus/Kalecgos (11k+ hits):
WWS
WWS


So my opinion is that dodges can be indeed completely negated.

 

Kauvian

From my understanding you can't put a specific value on stats without knowing your current stats. This is because each point of hit, crit, haste will give you less per point as you have more. So basically your "dps value" is changing with each piece of gear you get. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Orcheon

Hit gives you less once you're soft capped. Crit and Haste have no cap.

 

Infiniteone

I really wish people would stop telling people asking about gear to just refer to the damn spreadsheets.

In nearly every damn spreadsheet, and spreadsheet forum thread, someone is always finding bug after bug after bug after bug, that someone is sometimes the author himself admitting he found and is too lazy to fix it atm! Their's no point in using something if its constantly giving the wrong information, then you got people taking it serious and looting and or wasting heroic badges/dkp on stuff they really didnt need or wasn't that big of an upgrade to them.

What we need is someone to just break down the ideal overall dps stats for each tier level of gear and then people can strive for that. Ie how much haste, hit, crit, ap etc is the ABSOLUTE best for t4ish gear, t5ish gear, t6ish gear etc. Their will be people in between tiers and those people can just reach for half and half of whatever the ideal amount is.

Anything but referring to the constantly bugged spreadsheets that feed false information or just flat out dont work very well would be better imo.

 

Anedris

So you want to trust someone's rough estimate of what the value of hit/AP/crit might be at a given tier level? Bugged spreadsheets can be and are constantly being fixed - they become more and more accurate (this is why you see people reporting bugs - because other people are fixing those bugs). An estimate is never going to be accurate. (Think of it another way: spreadsheets give you the estimate you want, except instead of restricting you to one estimate per tier, they will give you an estimate for any given gear setup.)

Besides, whatever estimate someone gives you is going to be numbers they pulled out of a spreadsheet.

Basically, you are more likely to be wasting your DKP by trying to adhere to some arbitrary parameters of how much of each stat you "should" have than you are by using the spreadsheet and applying a small dose of common sense.

 

ckaparos

Hello sorry for the off topic but I would like some advise on my current gear.

I currently use motb trinktet and Tsunami. I do have DST in my bags but I don't use. I have tried to research if DST is better than TT for a fury warrior with no luck is anyone able to shed some light for me.

 

• landsoul

Excuse me but I update my sheet and fix errors in it about 10 times a week. When an error is posted I fix it on the day for the most part. Refer to this: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t23083-w...adsheet_2_4_a/