I dropped Engineering to hit 350 LW just so our group would have two drum users. I don't regret it, but having a third LW in the group would be even better. I've also had access to T6 shoulders as well as the BB legs, but neither are a huge upgrade over what I have now. An upgrade yes, but marginal at best even when combined. The legs have never been sharded either, so they are at least were going out with a purpose. The only leather that I know for sure that I want from Sunwell would be the gloves. Legs, Shoulders and Chest are comparable to plate. Too bad none of the patterns have dropped for us yet.
Just to add something. Ever since i got the t6 belt/shard of contempt im running with 6.25% dodge reduction. I havent be dodged even once, between all raids (including ZA, a Naxx run, multiple sunwell/bt and even a hyjal run for 3 weeks). I tested all my wws parses, and im pretty confident the dodge for bosses can be narrowed to 5.75-6.25 range (15-17 expertise with weapon mastery) not 7% top or 6.5 like some people say. Sure the evidence isnt the strongest yet (just one person), but good enough for me. Probably a lot of warriors could use t6 belt/shard and give their info.
Combined with the data that people DID get dodges at 6% anti dodge, It seems to be safe assumption dodge rate is "effectively" 6.25 since 0.25 is the smallest unit we can add anti dodge part.
6.25% might be the cap, but it's for sure not 5.75% when people with 6% were still seeing dodges. I have not seen a dodge with 6.25%, but I have only been at that point a little over a week.
Lets call it a feeling, but way blizzard handles this stuff its almost for sure tied to simply level difference (weapon skill). So my bet would be that dodge cap comes at 6.2% (0.08% dodge per weapon skill difference - double of what players get), 6.35 (0.09) or 6.5 (0.1). Since even with 6.35 dodge i would get 0.1 dodge%, I would speculate actual dodge rate is 6.2%, at "double" the rate of players. Interesting would be if 12.4% would eliminate parries for tanks - ill try to test it this week.
Dioniss, Elemental stones are most probably better, but you should check the spreadsheets to be sure.
Shha, could you perhaps check how many swings you have done in total using 6.25% anti-dodge? The statistics I made were based on something like 4000 swings with 6% anti-dodge (wws logs from Cavein). If you could get the total number of swings, we could try and narrow the confidence limit. Just so you know, 6.5% dodge is already well outside the 95% confidence limit using Caveins data.
Uh most of the wws is deleted but looking at logs i have. Brutallus kill is around 500 swings. SInce we wiped a lot last week and week before (not this though), id say i have over 4k swings on that boss alone. I have no idea about number but :
2 Full BT clear
1 Clear of BT from ros/gurtogg and mother + (precleared instance from other guild)
1 Full MH clear
1 Archimonde (precleared)
1 Sunwell up to Felmyst + some twins
1 Brutally+Felmyst
1 Brutallus.
Thats the amount of raids with expertise trinket on (aka when i was not tanking)
We did wiped a lot though in sunwell so you can multiply those.
Edit: Dioniss, Adamantite stones are better as of 2.4 (or earlier if the fact that OH stones affect MH dmg was present earlier , and just discovered with new tooltips). They do affect MH as well with +12 dmg, thus become over twice as good as previously suspected.
Edit2: Gruntle, even if my data isnt that solid atm, im sure more will come fast when people start using t6 belt+ shard (and it is a damn good combo). I guess most of current data comes from racial expertise+shard which adds to 0.25% less dodge reduction.
Dioniss, Elemental stones are most probably better, but you should check the spreadsheets to be sure.
Shha, could you perhaps check how many swings you have done in total using 6.25% anti-dodge? The statistics I made were based on something like 4000 swings with 6% anti-dodge (wws logs from Cavein). If you could get the total number of swings, we could try and narrow the confidence limit. Just so you know, 6.5% dodge is already well outside the 95% confidence limit using Caveins data.
That's not correct.
I had 6.25% less dodge reported from the in game character information page.
The logs you used I had 70 expertise rating from the shard of contempt and the onslaught belt plus 2/2 weapon mastery.
I can link the same logs again and some more recent ones, bearing in mind that I sometimes have to swap gear on trash and expertise rating changes on Mother Shahraz (and trash is of course a different level to bosses and should therefore never be included).
Well looking at the logs it seems for 1st one only dodges that happened were on mother. For 2nd its trash (maybe you were tanking), didnt check too closely yet though.
Well looking at the logs it seems for 1st one only dodges that happened were on mother. For 2nd its trash (maybe you were tanking), didnt check too closely yet though.
To view the dodges quickly go to the "Browse Log File" and set up a filter. Set the actor to "Cavein" and choose Actor only actions then hit as the event and dodge as the hit. It should list all dodges for that WWS.
I had 6.25% less dodge reported from the in game character information page.
The logs you used I had 70 expertise rating from the shard of contempt and the onslaught belt plus 2/2 weapon mastery.
...
Bah, sorry, I thought I remembered that you had 6.0, and was to lazy to check. Anyway, the statistics I made (in this post, which are given by Voxx in the compendium) I used the correct amount of 6.25%. Just recalled it wrongly now.
And, as you pointed out Expertise skill is (like weapon skill was before) always rounded down.
The dodge rate increase per level when facing a 73/boss would most likely be .4% per level then instead of .2% fighting anything underneath. This makes the total base chance 6.2%.
This is similarly how Blizzard made other mechanics and this is how I am now using it in my calculations. Makes the most sense to me compared to the testimonials.
The dodge rate increase per level when facing a 73/boss would most likely be .4% per level then instead of .2% fighting anything underneath. This makes the total base chance 6.2%.
This is similarly how Blizzard made other mechanics and this is how I am now using it in my calculations. Makes the most sense to me compared to the testimonials.
This would make sense if it wasn't for the fact that you still get dodged above 6.2% less dodge chance as described earlier in this thread.
I've read every post in this thread, and I haven't seen that post. Could you point me to it? I've seen a few WWS posted claiming dodge over 6.25% included some portions of that character tanking in tank gear and them including those dodges in those calculations.
I've read every post in this thread, and I haven't seen that post. Could you point me to it? I've seen a few WWS posted claiming dodge over 6.25% included some portions of that character tanking in tank gear and them including those dodges in those calculations.
Well, Cavein is using 70 expertise + weapon expertise (giving exactly 6.25% dodge, since expertise skill is rounded down to the nearest integer) on all bosses but Mother Sharaz. He's getting dodges on (among others, just took a look at the 2 first posted wws logs) Gurtogg Bloodboil, Essence of Anger and Supremus.
You don't have to read every post in the thread, just check Caveins wws logs and you'll easily see that he does get dodges. The only other statistics with numbers comes from Daronsk (I made statistics for his data in this post), but that is half of the swings Cavein has and perfectly consistent with a dodge chance >6.25%. For Shha's data we need the numbers and wws logs, we can't make statistics based on anecdotal evidence.
I am currently at 6.5% (81 rating + 6 from Defiance) in my tanking gear. I am about to add the expertise belt, but here are a number of parses with 0 dodges at 6.5% (I've limited them to certain bosses as my trash set is slightly different, and we try and shift the MT role around so I'm sometimes DPSing).
Yea I never really presented anything but anegdotal evidence. Ill try to get some but honestly I'm right now more concerned with other stuff in raid/wow time (being guild/raid leader). In a way I just shuffled the whole expertise thing aside, being content with the 6.25% assumption. Reasons:
- If you say you think its 6.26, or looking at parses - something like 0.01% dodge chance with 6.25, it leads to one of the conclusions: Either its some 0.01% unremovable factor, or even if not, its simply not worth it to get another 4 rating to remove such rare dodges
- Expertise comes in such large chunks, that its very rarely a factor in gear choice. In fact I dont see it as factor at all for my warrior. None of the gear choices will be determined by actual number, and as such slowly ceases to interest me .
But yea , if I actually remember to save the logs (and trim them to correct fights which is the annoying part - i often switching from dps to MT in one instance) , ill post them here.
Interesting data. As Shha said, though, the most realistic gear choice right now would be Shard + T6 Belt. That gets you close enough. For pure theorycraft purposes, it would be interesting to find the exact limit.
Yea I never really presented anything but anegdotal evidence. Ill try to get some but honestly I'm right now more concerned with other stuff in raid/wow time (being guild/raid leader). In a way I just shuffled the whole expertise thing aside, being content with the 6.25% assumption. Reasons:
- If you say you think its 6.26, or looking at parses - something like 0.01% dodge chance with 6.25, it leads to one of the conclusions: Either its some 0.01% unremovable factor, or even if not, its simply not worth it to get another 4 rating to remove such rare dodges
- Expertise comes in such large chunks, that its very rarely a factor in gear choice. In fact I dont see it as factor at all for my warrior. None of the gear choices will be determined by actual number, and as such slowly ceases to interest me .
But yea , if I actually remember to save the logs (and trim them to correct fights which is the annoying part - i often switching from dps to MT in one instance) , ill post them here.
Hehe, didn't mean to bash you Shha, if you get the time to post the numbers (or logs) that would certainly be interesting. Otherwise I agree with you, going for more than 6.25% antidodge will probably not be viable (unless using a spec with Defiance, where you might end up above the cap for some gear choices).
I am disturbingly horrible at math. Reviewing this I can understand what I see but not sure how to draw a good equation to find the answer to a question I have.
I am running 141 hit rating right now which is roughly translating to 8.94% hit, below the 9%. Hitting it exact with gemming right now would be difficult and I would go over the 9% hit. I did some switches of gems and got 10.34% which I felt was a little much. How much, if any really, dps am I losing being at 8.94% instead of 9? Could there be an expertise amount I could get that would bridge the gap or "bandage" it?
I am disturbingly horrible at math. Reviewing this I can understand what I see but not sure how to draw a good equation to find the answer to a question I have.
I am running 141 hit rating right now which is roughly translating to 8.94% hit, below the 9%. Hitting it exact with gemming right now would be difficult and I would go over the 9% hit. I did some switches of gems and got 10.34% which I felt was a little much. How much, if any really, dps am I losing being at 8.94% instead of 9? Could there be an expertise amount I could get that would bridge the gap or "bandage" it?
I don't think theres a "huge" difference for that .06% hit cap loss, I mean I just got Leggings of Divine Retribution which puts me a solid ~.22%ish hit under the cap, but I'm going to be running with Divine Retribution even if I don't hit cap. Another thing you could do is use hit food, as its just as easy to farm, and you can just use that if you don't like missing. Just use it temporarily until you're able to pick up gear upgrades that give you some hit, then you can go back to str food. I'm gonna try str food not hit capped for a few fights then try hit food, we'll have to see what happens, but the ArP upgrade from S3->Divine Ret prolly makes the hit loss worth it.
Basically I just rambled on there, oops, what I meant to say is, I wouldn't say go nuts on trying to get hit, but if you can hit cap I'd go for it, unless hit capping would severely gimp other stats. Also, I don't think that would "bridge" the miss gap but it would decrease dodges which would result in less hits being "missed" (Missed including dodge,parries,misses etc)
05/02/08, 1:32 AM
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