DPS Compendium - Page 2

Voxx · 03/08/08, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Is this really true? Do you have a link to tests that show this? From what I've heard UBW is on a 3 per talent point ppm (15 ppm with 5/5). With a 3.5 sec you have ~17 attacks per minute, so 5/5 UBW is not enough to max it out. The 15ppm is at least what is used in the spreadsheets.

Anyway, 2+/5 Imp demo shout will always be worth it for any dps warrior if noone else in the raid has it.

Can do some tests myself on it, but the last time I checked this assumption held true. I'll leave it in here until there's evidence to the contrary.

Edit: Working on a section for weapon speed and attack speed normalization, there's a lot of information on it.

Voxx · 03/08/08, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

Very nice post, thank you!!

Just one thing I'm really looking for (and still haven't found) would be a diagram of the effectiveness of AP increase vs. hit, crit, haste and armor pen increase.

Right now, I'm sitting at 900 armor pen and I just don't know if getting 30 Haste is better than 60 Armor Pen for example.

As to your survival section:
You might want to add that in specific situations it can be lifesaving to change from Battle Shout to Commanding Shout, example: the moment when Naj'entus puts up his shield, when you get poisoned in the Council fight, when you get ported by mother, during Illidan Phase II, etc.

You might also add a section with the best available gear for each slot - or even different versions for a haste build, crit build, armor pen build.

Thanks,
Bronwynn

I'll get to work putting relative ArP/Crit/AP values into a graph, might take some time so don't expect anything too soon

Edit: Harder to do now that I think about it, I think the best method of testing ArP vs Haste or other similar situations would be to plug your data into one of the spreadsheets. I suppose I can stick up some formulas here for people that can't get the spreadsheet to work though.

Khurzog · 03/08/08, 3:47 PM

First of all: great thread and nice summarization of known facts

Originally Posted by Voxx

2190 / (2190 - 22167.5 + 467.5 * 73) = 15.48% damage reduction.

From here, 200 ArP translates to:

1990 / (1990 - 22167.5 + 467.5 * 73) = 14.27% damage reduction :: or an 8.47% damage increase.

A further 200 ArP would translate to:

1790 / (1790 - 22167.5 + 467.5 *73) = 13.02% damage reduction :: or a 9.12% damage increase.

As you can see, while the amount of ArP gained was the same for both scenarios, the damage increase itself increases as the target's Armor approaches 0. Thus ArP exhibits increasing returns as opposed to diminishing returns.

thats just wrong.
15.48% dmg-reduction means you did 84.52% dmg.
14.27% dmg-reduction means you did 85.73% dmg. so the dmg increase would be 85.73/84.52 = 1.43%
same for the second 86.98/85.73 = 1,45% so Armorpen isn't that good as it seemed in your post (200ArP = 8-9% more dmg

) and it becomes just slightly better the more you have.

Voxx · 03/08/08, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Khurzog

First of all: great thread and nice summarization of known facts
thats just wrong.
15.48% dmg-reduction means you did 84.52% dmg.
14.27% dmg-reduction means you did 85.73% dmg. so the dmg increase would be 85.73/84.52 = 1.43%
same for the second 86.98/85.73 = 1,45% so Armorpen isn't that good as it seemed in your post (200ArP = 8-9% more dmg

) and it becomes just slightly better the more you have.

Ah right, thanks for pointing this out. I modeled the increase in ignored Armor it appears. I'll update now.

Cavein · 03/08/08, 6:50 PM

Very nice compilation Voxx.

Under the "Cooldowns" section you mention a near 100% crit chance when using recklessnes which is missleading. This only is true for yellow attacks.

Assuming a 33/28 dps warrior using a two-hand weapon with 142 hit rating and expertise capped:

Recklessness increases the crit chance of white attacks to 75%. If recklessness is used by the same warrior above but with two one-hand weapons recklessness increases crit chance of white attacks to 57%.

Also worth including Drums of War under "Consumables" as if you run with more than four leatherworkers in the melee dps group they can be used in conjunction with Drums of Battle.

Hidden · 03/08/08, 7:45 PM

I don't think your stats section treats Haste as good as it is. In t6 level gear Haste per point is superior to every stat but Expertise and, depending on gear, Armor Penetration as Fury, probably even moreso as MS. You should really mention that Haste and Armor Penetration are very good stats if your gear is top-notch.

For reference, according to the spreadsheets, my dps-per-stat-values fully raid buffed in an Enhancement Shaman/Feral druid group with 4 t6 and max DPS gear, that's with "old" 5 Strength/4 Agility gems however:
ap 0.34090909
str 0.75
agi 0.634
crit 0.862
hit 0.538
haste 0.8282
armor ignore 0.1445
(7 armor ignore 1.0115)
expertise 0,976
2t6 7.4
4t6 15.4
red 8.06
yellow 8.62
blue 6.286

• frmorrison · 03/08/08, 7:51 PM

It would be good to see a spreadsheet secton. The 2.3 thread has sheets there.

Tauftamir · 03/08/08, 8:01 PM

I think one should be careful of making statements as to the relative value of stats, and instead refer people to the spreadsheet which will produce equivalences for themselves.

The current (Pre 2.4) Haste itemisation is quite poor compared to other choices for those slots, forcing you to take Haste with Strength or Attack Power and not giving you a balance of any other stats.
Looking at your armory profile, there isn't actually a piece of "Haste itemisation" which is a better DPS piece than the ones you already have.

Hidden · 03/08/08, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tauftamir

I think one should be careful of making statements as to the relative value of stats, and instead refer people to the spreadsheet which will produce equivalences for themselves.

The current (Pre 2.4) Haste itemisation is quite poor compared to other choices for those slots, forcing you to take Haste with Strength or Attack Power and not giving you a balance of any other stats.
Looking at your armory profile, there isn't actually a piece of "Haste itemisation" which is a better DPS piece than the ones you already have.

I wouldn't exactly say so, there are already three very good haste procs; Dragonspine Trophy (best trinket ingame), Dragonstrike and Warglaives of Azzinoth obviously.
And as 2.4 is coming pretty soon, people should know that the haste rating on those items isn't wasted item stats as some may believe. I myself am going to use both crafted Jewelcrafting items, the necklace and the ring, over the ones from Supremus and Illidan I'm passing on currently and they both have Haste on them. They're probably the best items in their respective slots as a Fury Warrior.
I don't believe there's a gear level where haste isn't better than hit if you're yellow hit-capped.

Tauftamir · 03/08/08, 8:42 PM

Originally Posted by Hidden

I wouldn't exactly say so, there are already three very good haste procs; Dragonspine Trophy (best trinket ingame), Dragonstrike and Warglaives of Azzinoth obviously..

Perhaps I phrased my comment poorly. By haste itemisation I wasn't referring to "Haste procs" but armor pieces with passive haste.
[Swiftsteel Bracers] are inferior to Bracers available at T5/T6 level. [Belt of Seething Fury] is inferior to Red Belt of Battle and Belt of One-Hundred Deaths. Not because haste itself is a terrible stat, per se, but because of the stat allocation on the items.

My post was in support of your statement about haste. It isn't as terrible one might be lead to believe at certain gear levels but I think it's important to point out that pre-2.4 there isn't gear to support a Warrior gaining passive haste except from the three sources you mentioned, simply because the items that have it are so poor compared to others.

EDIT: Voxx, for completeness you might like to add Haste Potion and Insane Strength Potion to your consumables list. You mention it in other parts of the post you've written. You might also want to add that Haste Potion > Insane Strength by a large degree in the Spreadsheets. I presume Insane Strength is only preferable to some Arms warriors struggling with the Slam Rotation?

Some mention of suitable professions might also be a good addition. Off the top of my head there is:

Enchanting - +4 All Stats to Ring.
Jewelcrafting - [Crimson Sun], [Stone of Blades], and in 2.4 [Hard Khorium Choker]
Blacksmithing - [Bulwark of the Ancient Kings], [Swiftsteel Shoulders] and in 2.4 [Hard Khorium Battleplate]
Leatherworking - [Drums of Battle], and in 2.4 [Carapace of Sun and Shadow]

I don't think the Alchemist Stone is worth a mention. Obviously if you want to maximise DPS then selecting one of these professions is going to add the most value, if you can afford to allocate gathering professions to an alt.

Voxx · 03/08/08, 8:45 PM

I agree with Tauftamir here, saying how good or otherwise a stat is is mostly based on your current gear. The other thing to note is that Haste itself isn't necessarily a bad stat however most items right now are just poorly itemized in relation to Haste. I can edit my post to make sure people realize that Haste itself isn't "bad" per se, but rather Haste items are currently poorly itemized. I won't, however, endorse Haste as a stat better to stack than crit or AP at the moment because I'm sure it will cause a lot of unwitting warriors to run around in full crafted Haste gear wondering why their dps sucks.

Voxx · 03/08/08, 8:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tauftamir

Perhaps I phrased my comment poorly. By haste itemisation I wasn't referring to "Haste procs" but armor pieces with passive haste.
[Swiftsteel Bracers] are inferior to Bracers available at T5/T6 level. [Belt of Seething Fury] is inferior to Red Belt of Battle and Belt of One-Hundred Deaths. Not because haste itself is a terrible stat, per se, but because of the stat allocation on the items.

My post was in support of your statement about haste. It isn't as terrible one might be lead to believe at certain gear levels but I think it's important to point out that pre-2.4 there isn't gear to support a Warrior gaining passive haste except from the three sources you mentioned, simply because the items that have it are so poor compared to others.

EDIT: Voxx, for completeness you might like to add Haste Potion and Insane Strength Potion to your consumables list. You mention it in other parts of the post you've written. You might also want to add that Haste Potion > Insane Strength by a large degree in the Spreadsheets. I presume Insane Strength is only preferable to some Arms warriors struggling with the Slam Rotation?

Noted, I'll update as soon as I get back from the movies. Will add in a section on professions when I wake up in the morning and my brain remembers how to link items via forum.

Originally Posted by Cavein

Very nice compilation Voxx.

Under the "Cooldowns" section you mention a near 100% crit chance when using recklessnes which is missleading. This only is true for yellow attacks.

Assuming a 33/28 dps warrior using a two-hand weapon with 142 hit rating and expertise capped:

Recklessness increases the crit chance of white attacks to 75%. If recklessness is used by the same warrior above but with two one-hand weapons recklessness increases crit chance of white attacks to 57%.

Also worth including Drums of War under "Consumables" as if you run with more than four leatherworkers in the melee dps group they can be used in conjunction with Drums of Battle.

Fixed, more or less.

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions guys, much appreciated.

Moogul · 03/08/08, 9:45 PM

Originally Posted by Hidden

I wouldn't exactly say so, there are already three very good haste procs; Dragonspine Trophy (best trinket ingame), Dragonstrike and Warglaives of Azzinoth obviously.
And as 2.4 is coming pretty soon, people should know that the haste rating on those items isn't wasted item stats as some may believe. I myself am going to use both crafted Jewelcrafting items, the necklace and the ring, over the ones from Supremus and Illidan I'm passing on currently and they both have Haste on them. They're probably the best items in their respective slots as a Fury Warrior.
I don't believe there's a gear level where haste isn't better than hit if you're yellow hit-capped.

Yes, once you're hitcapped, haste is better than hit.

I would however like to see the maths that suggests haste is better than crit. My napkin maths suggests you'd have to have a pretty insane amount of crit and hit for that to be the case.

Hidden · 03/09/08, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Moogul

Yes, once you're hitcapped, haste is better than hit.

I would however like to see the maths that suggests haste is better than crit. My napkin maths suggests you'd have to have a pretty insane amount of crit and hit for that to be the case.

It's only true if you're raid buffed and the mob is debuffed of course.
Total crit and ap having an unbuffed 32%/2000 in Battle Stance:
Crit: 32% Base + 3% Berserker Stance + 5% LotP + 1% BoK + 0.5% MotW + 3% Judgement(we have a prot paladin who has skilled 3% crit) + 0.66% offhand Sharpening Stone = 45.16% crit
AP: (2000 Base + 390 Battle Shout + 250 Rampage + 270 AP Survival Hunter + 110 Imp. Hunter's Mark + 200 SoE Totem + 110 AP Flask + 40 AP Food + 120 AP BoK) * 1.1 UR * 1.1 Imp. Berserker Stance = 4223 AP
Of course these aren't the exact stats but they should be pretty right for a 4t6 Warrior using MotB/Dragonspine Trophy and Executioner/Potency.

K-Dog · 03/09/08, 11:37 AM

Elixir of Demonslaying: 265 Attack Power vs Demons. (5 minutes)

test it on archimonde and has no effect.
talk to a GM which agreed

Fel Strength Elixir: 70 Attack Power, -10 Stamina. (1 hour)
increase by 90AP not 70...

sorry 4 bad english