In the case of being a human, I am not 100% sure if this is accurate but I almost think it would be better to mainhand a Muramasa, offhand the sword from Kalec, essentially getting you back to the 17 expertise (4.25% reduction) that you would normally have with a shard and the T6 belt without having to wear the shard at all. Basically you remain completely capped on your dodge rate and can use a DST and Sliver, In the setup that I have modeled which can be seen here: chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.3.a.
This build, which I find to be pretty attractive on paper keeps you at dodge cap, a very comfortable armor pen rating (1200) 34.5 crit, and 2268 ap completely buffless, that's not to mention the 17% passive haste. The only loss in my eyes is not being able to use the mainhand from Kil'Jaeden, which needless to say the weapon is incredible, but does it really yield the loss of not being able to use a DST or Sliver? I'd be interested to hear some thoughts or ideas reguarding this, for us over powered humans, .
Edit: I forgot to mention, this is assuming the fact that you do NOT have access to Warglaives, just for clarity!
I dunno about the sword pair (+ DST instead of SoC) being better than the fist pair--would have to run it in a spreadsheet--but the rest of that profile is rather incorrect, in terms of best in slot items...
This would be right, with a couple of exceptions: Hard Khorium Choker if you're JC, ring enchants if you're Ench, Glaives, Thori'dal, and the mail gloves from KJ (which are like, 1 dps better than Immortal Dusk, but chances of acquiring them are slim).
I found a problem with the sheet. This time regarding Armor Penetration.
With a gear setup granting 1827 ArP(no procs involved) (can get more with other setups but lets just use this as an example) With max armor debuffs on a 6200 armor boss you get the following:
So In theory with ArP setup like this the additional ArP from 1715 ArP should add 0 dps, this is where the problem comes in, having capped Armor to 0 you still gain dps from adding aditional ArP (i even tried adding 2000 ArP manually and still got increased dps from it).
So the Cap for ArP against 6200 armor targets atleast (haven't tested for other armor values) seems to be flawed.
I dunno about the sword pair (+ DST instead of SoC) being better than the fist pair--would have to run it in a spreadsheet--but the rest of that profile is rather incorrect, in terms of best in slot items...
This would be right, with a couple of exceptions: Hard Khorium Choker if you're JC, ring enchants if you're Ench, Glaives, Thori'dal, and the mail gloves from KJ (which are like, 1 dps better than Immortal Dusk, but chances of acquiring them are slim).
Where did I say in my post that it was the ultimate set? It was simply what I'm shooting for, and to be frank having near 1900 passive armor pen is a waste in my eyes unless you're attacking a boss like Brutallus. A boss with a base of 6200 armor you only need roughly 1000 base pen (this is assuming no imp EA) with executioner up to be capped, I wouldn't ever stack that much pen due to the fact that the uptime of the proc is rather high, and 872 armor pen eats up a lot of itemization that could be used elsewhere in your build.
Anyhow I'm not saying what you're doing is "incorrect" it's just now how I'd gear my character. For Brutallus I'd say you could get some pretty sick parses if you want to flex your E-peen with your profile, but for anything else it wastes a large quantity of itemization in armor pen, or at least that's how it seems to me.
I'd appreciate any other comments or perhaps anyone who could validate the question about the dual-wielding swords on the human, sheet or otherwise. I'd do it myself but I am a huge noob at excel .
Edit: Also, the number 6200 was used because the majority of bosses in Sunwell have 6200. There is no value for KJ yet (to my knowledge) but that's why I threw it in there.
Where did I say in my post that it was the ultimate set? It was simply what I'm shooting for, and to be frank having near 1900 passive armor pen is a waste in my eyes unless you're attacking a boss like Brutallus. A boss with a base of 6200 armor you only need roughly 1000 base pen (this is assuming no imp EA) with executioner up to be capped, I wouldn't ever stack that much pen due to the fact that the uptime of the proc is rather high, and 872 armor pen eats up a lot of itemization that could be used elsewhere in your build.
Anyhow I'm not saying what you're doing is "incorrect" it's just now how I'd gear my character. For Brutallus I'd say you could get some pretty sick parses if you want to flex your E-peen with your profile, but for anything else it wastes a large quantity of itemization in armor pen, or at least that's how it seems to me.
I'd appreciate any other comments or perhaps anyone who could validate the question about the dual-wielding swords on the human, sheet or otherwise. I'd do it myself but I am a huge noob at excel .
Edit: Also, the number 6200 was used because the majority of bosses in Sunwell have 6200. There is no value for KJ yet (to my knowledge) but that's why I threw it in there.
I didn't clarify--those would be the best items against a boss like Brutallus, with 7685 armor. The ArP is most certainly not a waste of itemization, as it's the best stat until you reach the soft cap.
I can't currently accurately put together the "ultimate set" for a 6200 boss, seeing as this spreadsheet is calculating the Executioner proc incorrectly once you're within 840 of the boss's armor with passive decreases (Post #518); I'm not able to compare items with less or no ArP with the ones in the 7700 set, as the sheet does not devalue ArP past soft cap as it should.
I didn't clarify--those would be the best items against a boss like Brutallus, with 7685 armor. The ArP is most certainly not a waste of itemization, as it's the best stat until you reach the soft cap.
I can't currently accurately put together the "ultimate set" for a 6200 boss, seeing as this spreadsheet is calculating the Executioner proc incorrectly once you're within 840 of the boss's armor with passive decreases (Post #518); I'm not able to compare items with less or no ArP with the ones in the 7700 set, as the sheet does not devalue ArP past soft cap as it should.
Just so I am understanding exactly what you're saying when you refer to "soft cap" you mean it as in the amount of passive ArP you would need to put the boss at zero if you INCLUDED the executioner proc? If so then I 100% agree, I just find it difficult to justify wearing the amount you had shown in your profile against anything BUT the one boss.
If my assumption of what you meant is true, then what I originally had posted stat wise still matches what you were shooting for in general (being that I would be soft capped on ArP passively). Until we clear Sunwell about 30+ more times and I can get all that gear to maximize myself for each individual encounter under the circumstances that the boss is Brutallus, or has more than 6200 armor, I am very comfortable with the profile I had listed as a whole in respect to every boss in Sunwell, as opposed to just gearing for the one.
What happens when you have [Madness of the Betrayer] also equipped and you are worrying about fully valuing an exeuctioner proc when your ArP has surpassed the full worth executioner soft cap?
So you want me to do it like:
When passive ArP + debuffs > Boss Base armor - Executioner
Executioner is up part of the time, in which it only provides part of its value.
Madness is up part of the time, providing no value when Executioner is up which is only part of the time.
While I can do this more and more and more, it becomes more confusing to me to try and figure out if the changes are even doing any good and if I am even able to be consistent. I tried to do the same thing with DBL executioner and it just ended up benig a really expensive experiment for me that didnt confirm anything new in practical application in the game.
Is it really that necessary for me to change this when you know your DPS may go down by 10 or 20 after I change it only on certain bosses? The net change in making gear selection will be so small that it would barely make a difference to warrant the gear change. That's just my opinion.
Both together is tricky to model, but separately seems relatively simple. Not a lot of people use MotB, so you could probably leave it out and only do Executioner, seeing as every Fury warrior has it.
And the implementation would be as simple as checking if BossArmor - PassiveArP >= 840, and then using BossArmor - PassiveArP as Exec's penetration value if true, or 840 as normal if false.
I dunno what you mean about small difference, as any ArP past "soft cap" is worth ~40% less (Exec. uptime), which takes it from the best stat to one that's much less effective.
It would make the spreadsheet a lot more helpful toward deducing the best setup for a 6200 boss, as currently all the armor that's best in slot for a 7700 (or higher) boss retains that status for 6200, which it obviously shouldn't, as the non-ArP alternatives aren't _that_ far below them at the 7700 level, and any ArP over the 1350 softcap isn't penalized like it should be, meaning that the non-ArP alternatives are more than likely better choices; the question at hand though is which specific ones, and which specific setup.
every day i try to download it 20 - 30 times but i always see the "no available download servers" error message. yes i do see the number of downloads increasing so i figured some people must have it working fine. but could someone please give me another link? or email the file to "elitem4a1@yahoo.co.uk" please?
Both together is tricky to model, but separately seems relatively simple. Not a lot of people use MotB, so you could probably leave it out and only do Executioner, seeing as every Fury warrior has it.
And the implementation would be as simple as checking if BossArmor - PassiveArP >= 840, and then using BossArmor - PassiveArP as Exec's penetration value if true, or 840 as normal if false.
I dunno what you mean about small difference, as any ArP past "soft cap" is worth ~40% less (Exec. uptime), which takes it from the best stat to one that's much less effective.
It would make the spreadsheet a lot more helpful toward deducing the best setup for a 6200 boss, as currently all the armor that's best in slot for a 7700 (or higher) boss retains that status for 6200, which it obviously shouldn't, as the non-ArP alternatives aren't _that_ far below them at the 7700 level, and any ArP over the 1350 softcap isn't penalized like it should be, meaning that the non-ArP alternatives are more than likely better choices; the question at hand though is which specific ones, and which specific setup.
Would be much appreciated if you did this =)
Any ArP passed the soft cap is not worth next to nothing. It's still very worthwhile when executioner is not up, and since the boss armor is closer to closer to zero, is when ArP's worth increases the most, to nearly 1.4 SEP. Even then if you half that, its still worth more SEP than hit or agility. Are there specific items that are wanted to be swapped out for less ArP and more of a high worth stat like expertise, crit, or strength? If so, what are they?
A lot of people use [Madness of the Betrayer] if they were never fortunate enough for their guild to go back and run Gruul's for the small chance to have 5 melee and 3 hunters squabble over one item.
Another issue is that executioner is not purely true in the sheet because it uses uptime% * procvalue and subtracts it from the average armor value of the debuffed mob. What we are trying to do here is trying to put a subclause that is entirely true and very right onto something that is wrong but we have to accept and use anyways because there isnt another way to do it.
Did that make sense or am I being totally off-base?
Any ArP passed the soft cap is not worth next to nothing. It's still very worthwhile when executioner is not up, and since the boss armor is closer to closer to zero, is when ArP's worth increases the most, to nearly 1.4 SEP. Even then if you half that, its still worth more SEP than hit or agility. Are there specific items that are wanted to be swapped out for less ArP and more of a high worth stat like expertise, crit, or strength? If so, what are they?
A lot of people use [Madness of the Betrayer] if they were never fortunate enough for their guild to go back and run Gruul's for the small chance to have 5 melee and 3 hunters squabble over one item.
Another issue is that executioner is not purely true in the sheet because it uses uptime% * procvalue and subtracts it from the average armor value of the debuffed mob. What we are trying to do here is trying to put a subclause that is entirely true and very right onto something that is wrong but we have to accept and use anyways because there isnt another way to do it.
Did that make sense or am I being totally off-base?
I didn't say it'd be worth next to nothing, but it'd be about 60-65% as effective (depending on Exec. uptime), since 35-40% of the time any additional penetration past the soft cap is worth nothing, and it only has benefit when Executioner is not up.
And yes, there are a number of items, Pauldrons of Berserking for example, that are only a few DPS behind the best item for a 7700 boss (Demontooth Shoulderpads), so it would make sense that they'd be better for a 6200, seeing as the latter would have it's its ArP reduced in effectiveness.
In my comment I was trying to emphasize that everyone uses Exec whereas not nearly everyone has MotB, so it'd be acceptable to take care of one, but not the other. Though, it would be interesting to develop a model for both; if Executioner is up, say 35%, and MotB 15%, then you would only (lol) have to determine how much on average, MotB is up while Exec is not, which I currently have no idea how to do.
I agree that it's not a perfect model due to the nature of ArP being stronger as it increases, so x+840 35% of the time and x 65% of the time isn't the same as x+840*.35 all the time, but it's close enough.
Implementing what I suggested wouldn't be perfect and it wouldn't fix the same problem for MotB, but it would definitely improve current modeling for item sets approaching boss armor in passive pen.
I found a problem with the sheet. This time regarding Armor Penetration.
With a gear setup granting 1827 passive ArP (can get more with other setups but lets just use this as an example) With max armor debuffs on a 6200 armor boss you get the following:
So In theory with ArP setup like this the additional ArP from 1715 ArP - 1827 ArP should add 0 dps, this is where the problem comes in, having capped Armor to 0 you still gain dps from adding aditional ArP on the sheet (i even tried adding 2000 ArP manually and still got increased dps from it).
So the Cap for ArP against 6200 armor targets atleast (haven't tested for other armor values) seems to be flawed.
I'm talking 100% passive ArP im not using executioner and obviously not Madness of the Betrayer, Right now i have 1617 passive ArP on my gear, so it's helm or fist thats gonna get me over the "cap". So don't take this as a far out issue.
I'm already dropping exec on MH because of this as it seems (from the tries i've had so far) KJ is 6200 armor aswell.
Which leaves 1 boss where exec is really worth it, if you have an Imp Expose Armor rogue in your raid.
You can ignore it, and i will just know myself that any ArP over 1715 is a total waste (on 6200 armor bosses). I'm just trying to help, so if you don't think it's a valid thing thats fine too.
I was just thinking about the Executioner modeling, and I've perhaps found a more accurate solution? Though probably harder to implement.
Anyway, it would be done in the DPS calculation, with ExecUptime% of it calculated using PassiveArP + 840 (unless that exceeds BossArmor, then just BossArmor), and the remainded with PassiveArP.
This may not be feasible depending on how you designed the sheet (I didn't look specifically into its inner workings), but it would give a more accurate prediction, and would also address the nearing-armor-cap problem I've been trying to solve here.
And regarding MotB--it could also be implemented in a similar fashion, splitting up the DPS calculation into when Exec+MotB are up, Exec alone, MotB alone, and neither. Though the problem is of course, calculating the average uptime of Exec and MotB separately and together, which I don't believe is quite possible, though I may be wrong.
So then, is the conclusion that it's extremely difficult to model an ideal setup for a 7700 armor boss, and that stat weighting becomes screwy when trying to do so?
If so, what then are the power-builds for 6200? The spreadsheet seems to model that without problems, but I'm still not seeing the weighting of haste focused items like DST reflected with the results that seem to be discussed in this thread so far.
So then, is the conclusion that it's extremely difficult to model an ideal setup for a 7700 armor boss, and that stat weighting becomes screwy when trying to do so?
If so, what then are the power-builds for 6200? The spreadsheet seems to model that without problems, but I'm still not seeing the weighting of haste focused items like DST reflected with the results that seem to be discussed in this thread so far.
Other way around. For 7700 bosses, there is no trouble at all determining the best items as going within 840 of debuffed Boss Armor is not feasible with passive penetration. With 6200, it easily is, and the spreadsheet doesn't account for the reduced effectiveness of ArP past the soft cap (it's reduced by ExecUptime%). That's what I've been discussing at least.
And, if modeling is correct, Sliver is the best trinket by a heapload, and if you receive the full expertise benefit from SoC, then it is in 2nd place behind Sliver. DST could only possibly be better if say, you are a human with glaives and T6 belt, since some of the xpt on SoC is wasted.
I have a quick question about, how to use the spreadsheet.
I have different items I can change if i want to raise some stats. But what im not sure, about the dps it give me.
Is this is calculated against a "Boss" stats ? Or only against lvl 70. ?
I have a quick question about, how to use the spreadsheet.
I have different items I can change if i want to raise some stats. But what im not sure, about the dps it give me.
Is this is calculated against a "Boss" stats ? Or only against lvl 70. ?
thank you and hoping my question is clear
there's more than the *gear* page if you'd care to look a bit closer. on the other pages you can change alot other specifics like raid setup, talents, bonus sets etc, and you can see various procrates for many items.
read the instructions before asking questions.
[edit]: realised instructions is a better word than manual
Martgsr, all dps values in Landsoul's sheet are calculated vs boss mobs.
I don't really understand your question though, was that all you were wondering about? As Zeux pointed out, the second page will let you adjust buffs and talents. The default setting is with really optimal buffs (including totem twisting) so don't be surprised if the resulting dps values are very high.
On the buffs tab would it be possible to add (G) or (R) next to each buff signifying Group or Raid. For example leader of the Pack and Windfury would be (G) meaning they have to be in your group. But Blood Frenzy and Improved Hunters Mark would be (R) for Raid buff. This is just for reference but I think it would be handy.
Edit: Thanks for the all the work on this spreadsheet, its a great tool to have.
I was just thinking about the Executioner modeling, and I've perhaps found a more accurate solution? Though probably harder to implement.
Anyway, it would be done in the DPS calculation, with ExecUptime% of it calculated using PassiveArP + 840 (unless that exceeds BossArmor, then just BossArmor), and the remainded with PassiveArP.
This may not be feasible depending on how you designed the sheet (I didn't look specifically into its inner workings), but it would give a more accurate prediction, and would also address the nearing-armor-cap problem I've been trying to solve here.
And regarding MotB--it could also be implemented in a similar fashion, splitting up the DPS calculation into when Exec+MotB are up, Exec alone, MotB alone, and neither. Though the problem is of course, calculating the average uptime of Exec and MotB separately and together, which I don't believe is quite possible, though I may be wrong.
I think this would be the easiest way to do it. Albeit its still not easy, I think this is the path I will "try" to take to make it more accurate. All I would have to do is try to fit another field in the already cramped Output Page and modify the %DamageApplied field so it runs the combined average of both armor level chances. I could also do it with MOTB and combined executioner and MOTB, which would require 3 additional fields instead of 1.
Great thinking Lapp, thanks. Expect this to be in the late 1.319. I've been working on my guild's first Kalecgos kill (finally) video and our new logo for forever it seems so I have not had the chance much to update. I still read all of your posts, tho.
I think this would be the easiest way to do it. Albeit its still not easy, I think this is the path I will "try" to take to make it more accurate. All I would have to do is try to fit another field in the already cramped Output Page and modify the %DamageApplied field so it runs the combined average of both armor level chances. I could also do it with MOTB and combined executioner and MOTB, which would require 3 additional fields instead of 1.
Great thinking Lapp, thanks. Expect this to be in the late 1.319. I've been working on my guild's first Kalecgos kill (finally) video and our new logo for forever it seems so I have not had the chance much to update. I still read all of your posts, tho.
Allright. Wait, so you figured out a way to calculate the average uptimes of Exec+MotB, Exec, and MotB (and neither), given their independent average uptimes? I'm a math whiz of sorts, but I don't see it atm.
Greetings, I'm not that well informed regarding formulas and calculations concerning a DPS-warrior. Furthermore, the spreadsheet doesn't work for me. I just wanted to know which trinkets I should use, since I'm not perfectly sure. I currently got these three: Dragonspine Trophy, Madness of the Betrayer, Shard of Contempt.
Depending on what is needed in the raid, I play arms or fury in raids. I would use Shard/Madness with arms spec and Shard/DST with the latter spec, however I'm not that sure and comments are appreciated.
My stats in Berserker Stance:
With fury they are unbuffed:
2277 AP, 35.50 crit, 217 hit rating and 672 ArmorPenetration.
With arms they are:
2166 ATP, ~33,5% crit, 144 hit rating and 888 ArmorPenetration.
06/02/08, 6:44 PM
.
.
Similar Threads
