OO doesnt have a macro type thing to do SEP without seperate sheets?
OO has macros, I tried making SEP macros for my OO version of drALLCOM3's sheet but never managed to get them working. I suspect it has to do with the fact that you have to update the sheet manually between each change you do. The solution by landsoul is less elegant I guess but it seems very stable and is working just fine (brute force ftw ).
Angelista's Revenge is currently listed on the sheet as "Sunwell Badge Loot Ring - Melee" or something along those lines, as the item names were not known with the first PTR push.
I was playing around with things and I noticed something kind of funny.
Not that it matters now, but Pre 2.4, the 4 set bonus of t6 would cause the best in slot for legs and gloves to change to t6 instead of [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Leggings of Divine Retribution] by a hilariously small margin. I'm not sure if using a different slot for the offset piece would have mattered or made the margin larger, I didnt have time to try. but it was something like 1663 -> 1664
Not that it matters now, but Pre 2.4, the 4 set bonus of t6 would cause the best in slot for legs and gloves to change to t6 instead of [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Leggings of Divine Retribution] by a hilariously small margin. I'm not sure if using a different slot for the offset piece would have mattered or made the margin larger, I didnt have time to try. but it was something like 1663 -> 1664
That's right. It was better by <5 DPS. Not really worth it.
I haven't downloaded the most recent from this thread yet, but has anything been changed with how haste it valued? In the 0.9.16 version of Grim's sheet haste ends up being the stat with the highest SEP again and again in my current gear. I don't know if it was overvalued due to Shaa's persistence that it's the best stat for a BT geared Warrior, or if the sheet was simply reflecting what he said, because haste was never that good for me before. But on the other hand, I don't believe I was entering any of the Sunwell gear previously, although I am not sure how gear having greater amounts of haste rating is going to make the SEP value worth more similar to ArP. Also, with the best Sunwell gear, but no Warglaive in the off hand, Mongoose is only coming out as 8 DPS more than Potency. Add the second Warglaive and it drops down to 5 DPS. Can you really justify having one over the other on anything but the most rooted fights?
Well to be honest it was more of opposite order there. First i noticed how high haste is in SEP for me, then I gave it some thought and figured out why it seems to be that way.
To put it simply - haste = hit, except it works on heroic strikes. Haste mechanics for warriors are about the same as for combat rogues, where haste is about even with hit in value. Haste increases my white nad heroic dmg (they are usually about even), thus being double the value of hit. Since hit is usually over half of str/crit value that makes haste better then those. Anyway, I first noticed haste in spreadsheets, then started dvelwing into it.
I think the problem was haste wont affect Heroic strike until you are using HS on every single MH swing. Even if you have the rage for that doesnt make its worth double of hit. I havent been able to reproduce results where haste is best until things like expertise and ArP are capped already.
I think the problem was haste wont affect Heroic strike until you are using HS on every single MH swing. Even if you have the rage for that doesnt make its worth double of hit. I havent been able to reproduce results where haste is best until things like expertise and ArP are capped already.
I'll have to just download the sheet in this thread and look again, because it's easily reproduceable in Grim's sheet. These variances in SEP and no clear unified standard are making it hard to even have any trust in these results. In the older sheet, [Felfury Legplates] are a good 86 DPS higher than [Legguards of Endless Rage]. And maybe I should be more specific, I get this result after adding the Onslaught belt to my current gear. Add in the boots and haste gets even higher. Add the Felfury legs, even higher as though it's acting like ArP.
I think the problem was haste wont affect Heroic strike until you are using HS on every single MH swing. Even if you have the rage for that doesnt make its worth double of hit. I havent been able to reproduce results where haste is best until things like expertise and ArP are capped already.
Well obviously i was trying to put it short and not very accurate - just a pointer WHY haste is so good in spreadsheets, not a full theorycraft article. What you say isnt exactly right either. My heroic+white on low armor bosses is around 75% of dmg. It means haste affects 75% of my damage, adding 1% to it every 16 rating or in short increasing damage by 0.75% per 16 rating, as opposed to lets say crit, that increases my damage by around 1/1.45% (assuming 45% crit) for 22 rating on 100% of my moves (well not deep wounds but lets ignore it). in short its 0.7% for 22 rating for crit and 0.75% for 16 rating for haste . Now that would mean that haste is about 50% better then crit which is a bit overboard . Things ignored of top of my head:
- Crit increases Flurry uptime, Haste decreases it (as it gives you more swing: instant ratio). The effects arent huge (1% haste is hard to model as to decrease but its less then 0.2% of flurry uptime, and 1% crit if you are really high on crit is about the same)
- Crit increases rage generation, Haste does not (well a bit as it makes heroic strikes a bit "cheaper" , but its not a huge effect).
So in the end we have the 50% raw damage bonus of haste vs crit, vs those 2 effects that favor crit. Which is better, is really hard to tell without spreadsheets to be honest. I cant really calculate that without basically going all the way and making own spreadsheet. However EXISTING spreadsheets value haste over crit at high gear rating.
I think part of might be gear we are testing with, I am trying to set up something on warcrafter to use as a standard of sorts. I think I have everything but weapons, I dont think warglaives are suitable for this sort of thing, whats the next best thing?
I think part of might be gear we are testing with, I am trying to set up something on warcrafter to use as a standard of sorts. I think I have everything but weapons, I dont think warglaives are suitable for this sort of thing, whats the next best thing?
Well obviously i was trying to put it short and not very accurate - just a pointer WHY haste is so good in spreadsheets, not a full theorycraft article. What you say isnt exactly right either. My heroic+white on low armor bosses is around 75% of dmg.
Your gear is not lacking at all, yet 75% seems a little high. I sit at 65% white + Heroic on Teron, using HS on every cooldown. Think it might just be weapon speed (when your mace procs with the DST) causing such a variance?
In the latest version of the spreadsheet the Warbrigner Battle-Helm is incorrectly shown to have 12 hit rating, actually 14.
Would the Master Assassin Wristwraps be worth modeling? I've been using them for a while and having a hard time finding a solid upgrade outside of Hyjal/BT.
I'm very curious to what DPS rotation is being modeled in this spreadsheet because I'm getting very high values even though I'm only in T4-5 gear. I understand that it won't be 100% because of random variables that happen in any encounter but I'm getting ~1700 calculated when the best I've done in game was just under 1200 on Tidewalker with no watery graves. On any average raid I'll get 850-900... Am I really losing 50% of my potential to boss variables? I doubt it.
Also, thanks for putting in so much time and work on this spreadsheet! Doing a fantastic job and it's definitely my primary tool to look for possible upgrades.
However EXISTING spreadsheets value haste over crit at high gear rating.
I used the following gear 70 Troll Warrior which I think is a general top end set. The site doesnt have all the new gear so the missing slots are [Crown of Anasterian] with Relentless and Bold gems, [Angelista's Revenge], and [Shard of Contempt] which I entered as 85 AP for the proc if they sheet didnt model it. Probably could be better but I didnt want to reenter half the stuff.
SEP values (expertise is capped so no value, but I think sheets are using 5.6%)
Armory isnt working but I think I remember shha had a dragonstrike. Putting that in the MH changed the value of haste drastically on Grim's sheet, but only a little on Landsoul's. That is odd because Landsoul's calculates the proc to be ~80 haste with that gear while Grim assumes a static 64, DST is also off and only a static in Grim's. However haste still was 1.017, barely better than STR and still not worth more than ArP.
I'm not exactly sure what Landsoul did differently, but the DPS figures I am getting from his sheet are much more accurate and reflect what I actually do most of the time in game as an average. At least when I don't get the continual random jumps or lowering in DPS by adding and removing the same item.
The SEP values are very different as well, regarding haste at least. I can't seem to get exact results though because any time I add (multiple times) what looks like could be an upgrade, it might spike high in DPS or drop like a huge downgrade.
<QUOTE =GRAUL> "The SEP values are very different as well, regarding haste at least. I can't seem to get exact results though because any time I add (multiple times) what looks like could be an upgrade, it might spike high in DPS or drop like a huge downgrade."
When switching gear around please be sure to refresh it multiples times (Ctrl Shift Y) until it does not change. You will not get accurate results unless you do this. This has been said multiple times and is in the instructions on the first page. I am trying to get to the open office guys about the problem. Please read the direction and your experience with it will be a little better.
I am trying very hard to get to the root of the problem by asking in OOO forums. the 2 release of open office doesnt fix it either. Maybe 3.0 will which is coming soon.
- Crit increases rage generation, Haste does not (well a bit as it makes heroic strikes a bit "cheaper" , but its not a huge effect).
Are you absolutely certain that Haste does not affect rage generation at all? Many people claim this but so far I've seen no hard evidence of this. In fact, Rezarel did some tests that seem to indicate the opposite (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t22705-d...p8/#post679047). In drALLCOM3's (and I guess in Grim13's sheet as well) rage generation is dependent on haste, you get a higher rage generation when hasted. I think the same is true in landsoul's sheet, but I can't check it now.
I've never gotten haste to be that good in any of the sheets either. But I think it's due to gear, at very high gear levels haste just becomes godly because it allows you to churn out a lot more heroic strikes (both because of a lower weapon speed but also due to higher rage generation). It's a slightly nonlinear effect, which makes haste become better and better the more you get, haste enables you to use more HS due to extra rage, and then you can make even more HS in a given time period because of lower mean weapon speed. On lower gear levels this is less evident since you really don't have that much rage to spare (my rage generation is currently letting me do HS on every second hit or so).
It's a slightly nonlinear effect, which makes haste become better and better the more you get, haste enables you to use more HS due to extra rage, and then you can make even more HS in a given time period because of lower mean weapon speed.
Haste is very linear, haste doesnt give you more HS unless you are using HS on every swing. In that case you can get a faster weapon, which would only slightly affect WW damage, without using points to get haste.
Ill see if I can test if haste affects rage generation or not when I get home. Just swinging in blasted lands and watching hit sizes between normal and DST should be enough, any tips or mods that show rage gain easy?
If you execute after every swing, you don't have to do any math since you'll be at 0 rage before every white swing. Although you'll have to be careful about Anger Management and rage from incoming damage. I'd make a video if you can, it makes it easier to see if you got a tiny bit of rage right before the swing.
03/27/08, 12:24 PM
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