WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 101

Shha · 09/27/08, 3:36 AM

Originally Posted by Barmbul

I just find it ironic that we can out dps TG fury and all the new shinny arms talents by spamming good old TBC slam

But you cant. I can keep 1800 dps spamming slam, or i can do 2100 dps maintaining a rotation. I agree slam spam for its simplicity does ok dps, but it doesnt really OUTDPS TG or properly played arms.

• Morsexy · 09/27/08, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Lasie

This is kinda a problem, since a lot of the base "issues" that the warrior class stems from stance penalties and how stances are outdated. Changing stances first, and then balancing abilities around the new stances is a lot easier then balancing abilities around one stance, and then changing stances to find out those abilities are overpowered/underpowered in those stances.

If you've got a crumbling statue, you fix the base/foundation first before you repair the various other parts of the statue.

I mean besides the "this doesn't make much sense" aspect of this, I would also love for the explanation of how exactly they realistically expect this to be resolved if theyre not dealing with it right now, when they should, but are going to "bandaid" arms stance somehow.

So we get pummel and berserker rage in battle stance, or bust correct? There are absolutely people out there who see you go defensive stance\battle stance and fear\repentance\gouge and it is not worth the risk to stay in the Arms Stance unless you get that same utility.

Then some indeterminate time from now, they remove penalties, and hopefully remove the stance GCD. Because obviously, having discussed it, and seeing how poorly designed it is in the current implementation of 'stances' be it druid forms or DK presences, even though it might have been appropriate in the past, it no longer makes sense in the grand balance of WoW for two classes of out three to function under wildly different rules while using the same basic mechanics that all three use.

I find this so frustrating that on the one hand they can more or less tell us that TG is balanced right now, for the future. Fair enough, we scale insanely and even now when I think about using a 2h in each hand I think its crazy. Then they can say basically "Yes, DK stances are night and day to warrior stances, but, the warrior stance issue won't be as much a problem until 3-4 months into WotLK release when people are doing PVP and encountering PvE elements with massive splash damage, so we'll fix it then". When will then, be now? Soon.

Graul · 09/27/08, 6:38 AM

Originally Posted by Shha

But you cant. I can keep 1800 dps spamming slam, or i can do 2100 dps maintaining a rotation. I agree slam spam for its simplicity does ok dps, but it doesnt really OUTDPS TG or properly played arms.

So how does one actually "properly play" waiting on a Rend that may or may not activate an Overpower where the only saving grace is the rage cost and that it's an instant? I've done both and trying the Taste of Blood rotation is greatly inferior. I'd also like to see a recount of you doing 2100 with it on a dummy with no debuffs.

hellord · 09/27/08, 10:19 AM

Actually cause of the randomness of arms proc I only go for the "free" gcd i have when it cools down.

I prioritize MS if rage permits it, and if Overpower is up i found it quite better damage per GCD than both slam and MS (1 sec GCD for ~2.28*weapon damage since it crits nearly always with an axe spec) but i still prioritize MS to maximize its damage in the long therm, making some use of the 4pc T6 bonus.
I don't bother to swap stances since OP is mainly a substitution of whirlwind, so i either use Rend-OP when i need to reduce damage, or just go for zerk stance and swap to battle if rage starved.

The only real problem is not that rotation is complicated or that is too random, but:
- Rend cannot be reapplied if you did it while your weapon damage was affected by a proc ("More powerful effect")
- Rend also does less damage per gcd than any other special and will be more useful then Slam only at very fast speed or when rage starved
- Rend won't scale that much and can't crit
- You often can't refresh Rend cause you did it last time while your weapon damage was affected by a proc or a temporary buff

While I didnt try yet in a raid i can say that staying in battle or in berz stance is debatable, but there is no obvious reason, since as I already stated, in fight where u can use the same number of whirlwind or Overpower the difference is neglible and in favour of battle, so if we can't get some damage bonus in battle stance, there will be no reasons to not go in berserk stance when gear scales up a bit and you never have rage issues, making a GCD rotation prioritizing MS>WW>Slam on a free GCD when your weapon swing is over ~2 and keeping MS and WW on cooldown filling the rest with slams and Hs when your speed becomes too fast.

Sha already told this and showed a rotation for both cases.

In battle stance you prioritize MS>OP>Slam swapping a Rend instead of Slam to maximize T4B procs.

I'll post some data later, the biggest problem is having decent lag for few minutes at dummies these days on PTR (dmg range from 1500 dps to 1900 dps due to lag) so i have to make some reliable test, but actually Battle stance is probably best for solo rather than raids, unless you get a lot of aoe damage.

EDIT: I also edited DocSwingersClub to put the Slam changes. Feel free to try it
http://www.hellord.com/wow/DocsSwingerclub_PTR.zip
Seems to work

Rodriquez · 09/27/08, 10:29 AM

Hey together, i searched hard the last day to find a thread where the formula of the "Two-Handed Weapon Specialization" is explained. I registered here to find this out, but with the sheer amound of threads it's almost a mission impossible to find the right thread for this question, so i ask here.

I tried to calculate it myself and came to the conclusion, that it's an overall 50-150 bonus damage per hit in normal gameplay (noncrit and crit mixed, low/max damage))
For me this seems very low and is only effective in long fights, like Arena maybe.

If someone knows the formula, pls tell me or post a link to the thread where it's explained, would highly appreciate it. Now i continue searching, if i find it myself. Thx in advance!

hellord · 09/27/08, 10:36 AM

EDIT: post removed

Rodriquez · 09/27/08, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by hellord

EDIT: lol, not worth a reply

Then keep your lack of interest by yourself next time

dr_AllCOM3 · 09/27/08, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Rodriquez

Hey together, i searched hard the last day to find a thread where the formula of the "Two-Handed Weapon Specialization" is explained. I registered here to find this out, but with the sheer amound of threads it's almost a mission impossible to find the right thread for this question, so i ask here.

I tried to calculate it myself and came to the conclusion, that it's an overall 50-150 bonus damage per hit in normal gameplay (noncrit and crit mixed, low/max damage))
For me this seems very low and is only effective in long fights, like Arena maybe.

If someone knows the formula, pls tell me or post a link to the thread where it's explained, would highly appreciate it. Now i continue searching, if i find it myself. Thx in advance!

It's 5% more damage, what formula do you expect?

hellord · 09/27/08, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Rodriquez

Then keep your lack of interest by yourself next time

I'm sorry but the reason why you didn't find anything about such formula in these forums is because in here people tend to suppose you can deal with basic math.
It's
YourNewDamage = YourDamage*(1+0.01*2hSpecTalent) if you want something complicate

Vulmio · 09/27/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by hellord

Actually cause of the randomness of arms proc I only go for the "free" gcd i have when it cools down.

I prioritize MS if rage permits it, and if Overpower is up i found it quite better damage per GCD than both slam and MS (1 sec GCD for ~2.28*weapon damage since it crits nearly always with an axe spec) but i still prioritize MS to maximize its damage in the long therm, making some use of the 4pc T6 bonus.
I don't bother to swap stances since OP is mainly a substitution of whirlwind, so i either use Rend-OP when i need to reduce damage, or just go for zerk stance and swap to battle if rage starved.

The only real problem is not that rotation is complicated or that is too random, but:
- Rend cannot be reapplied if you did it while your weapon damage was affected by a proc ("More powerful effect")
- Rend also does less damage per gcd than any other special and will be more useful then Slam only at very fast speed or when rage starved
- Rend won't scale that much and can't crit
- You often can't refresh Rend cause you did it last time while your weapon damage was affected by a proc or a temporary buff

While I didnt try yet in a raid i can say that staying in battle or in berz stance is debatable, but there is no obvious reason, since as I already stated, in fight where u can use the same number of whirlwind or Overpower the difference is neglible and in favour of battle, so if we can't get some damage bonus in battle stance, there will be no reasons to not go in berserk stance when gear scales up a bit and you never have rage issues, making a GCD rotation prioritizing MS>WW>Slam on a free GCD when your weapon swing is over ~2 and keeping MS and WW on cooldown filling the rest with slams and Hs when your speed becomes too fast.

Sha already told this and showed a rotation for both cases.

In battle stance you prioritize MS>OP>Slam swapping a Rend instead of Slam to maximize T4B procs.

I'll post some data later, the biggest problem is having decent lag for few minutes at dummies these days on PTR (dmg range from 1500 dps to 1900 dps due to lag) so i have to make some reliable test, but actually Battle stance is probably best for solo rather than raids, unless you get a lot of aoe damage.

EDIT: I also edited DocSwingersClub to put the Slam changes. Feel free to try it
http://www.hellord.com/wow/DocsSwingerclub_PTR.zip
Seems to work

I guess you don't mention Bladestorm because of the long cooldown or isn't it even worth using it ?
An other comment is that if arms warriors don't have to use rend/overpower, there are tons of useless talents we'll have to take. There will be a lot of wasted talent points. It sounds like a really poorly designed tree, it's sad.

Barmbul · 09/27/08, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by hellord

Actually cause of the randomness of arms proc I only go for the "free" gcd i have when it cools down.

I prioritize MS if rage permits it, and if Overpower is up i found it quite better damage per GCD than both slam and MS (1 sec GCD for ~2.28*weapon damage since it crits nearly always with an axe spec) but i still prioritize MS to maximize its damage in the long therm, making some use of the 4pc T6 bonus.
I don't bother to swap stances since OP is mainly a substitution of whirlwind, so i either use Rend-OP when i need to reduce damage, or just go for zerk stance and swap to battle if rage starved.

The only real problem is not that rotation is complicated or that is too random, but:
- Rend cannot be reapplied if you did it while your weapon damage was affected by a proc ("More powerful effect")
- Rend also does less damage per gcd than any other special and will be more useful then Slam only at very fast speed or when rage starved
- Rend won't scale that much and can't crit
- You often can't refresh Rend cause you did it last time while your weapon damage was affected by a proc or a temporary buff

While I didnt try yet in a raid i can say that staying in battle or in berz stance is debatable, but there is no obvious reason, since as I already stated, in fight where u can use the same number of whirlwind or Overpower the difference is neglible and in favour of battle, so if we can't get some damage bonus in battle stance, there will be no reasons to not go in berserk stance when gear scales up a bit and you never have rage issues, making a GCD rotation prioritizing MS>WW>Slam on a free GCD when your weapon swing is over ~2 and keeping MS and WW on cooldown filling the rest with slams and Hs when your speed becomes too fast.

Sha already told this and showed a rotation for both cases.

In battle stance you prioritize MS>OP>Slam swapping a Rend instead of Slam to maximize T4B procs.

I'll post some data later, the biggest problem is having decent lag for few minutes at dummies these days on PTR (dmg range from 1500 dps to 1900 dps due to lag) so i have to make some reliable test, but actually Battle stance is probably best for solo rather than raids, unless you get a lot of aoe damage.

EDIT: I also edited DocSwingersClub to put the Slam changes. Feel free to try it
http://www.hellord.com/wow/DocsSwingerclub_PTR.zip
Seems to work

or you could spam slam in zerker and get within 100 dps of this...... anyone else see a problem with this?

Rodriquez · 09/27/08, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by hellord

YourNewDamage = YourDamage*(1+0.01*2hSpecTalent) if you want something complicate

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

It's 5% more damage, what formula do you expect?

I always thought the formula was a bit more complicated. Also what i'm unsure with, if you spec 5/5 2hspec for instance, is it already calculated in the statsscreen under "Damage" or is it calculated after every hit?

Barmbul · 09/27/08, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

But you cant. I can keep 1800 dps spamming slam, or i can do 2100 dps maintaining a rotation. I agree slam spam for its simplicity does ok dps, but it doesnt really OUTDPS TG or properly played arms.

I would like to see some recounts of you doing 2100 dps self buffed on the dummies. In my experience even a bad rotation isn't a 800 difference with equal gear. What gear you are using? I do not have any SW gear so that may be the difference.

Devimus · 09/27/08, 1:42 PM

I decided to make a video showcasing my experience with SD vs TG in build 8982.

SDvsTGvsTGDW.wmv - FileFront.com

Self buffed, bshout only except for a second TG section where I used DW twice.

I haven't had any testing with the idea of spam slam, so it is no used.

It may not be perfect rotations and all that, but you can get a general idea.

No sunwell gear, hit being the priority, if I recall correctly, 229hit was used in the video.

hellord · 09/27/08, 2:32 PM

@ Vulmio
Bladestorm could be viable once you have spare 6 seconds, and should do 7xweapon damage in 6 seconds, so in therm of damage is 4 GCD where you wont be able to do anything else, and is useful when you are rage starve since you'll be roughly at full rage bar after using it (you'll land 2 hit in between).
It's not bad damage if you theorycraf it, but from tests i always did better without using it while in battle stance.

I think it's not a big dps increase that you absolutely need to include in a rotation and to do comaparable WW damage should have a 1m10 seconds CD instead of 1m30. I still cant judge well this skill with a single target boss, surely great for aoe (but is obvious).

@ Barmbul
There are different views, and anyway it mostly depends on your weapon speed and your haste. The faster you swing, the bigger the white loss from slam, while it gets better with slower speed due to non-normalization of the AP. So you can spam Slam and is easy, but you can't move, you still risk starvation (with a 3s avg swing you can go up to 4 seconds and you need 45 rage per rotation if you only Slam) and the DPS for a gcd of other specials is superior, only excluding Rend cause can't crit.

I didnt find so hard using every gcd using OP instead of a Slam when it lights up. It is very random and in a rend duration you can either have 3-4 procs or none so your DPS vary much.

Even in berz i wouldnt just slam spam but still try to keep MS and WW (and eventually Bladestorm if it worths) on cooldown. 100 dps difference is not so neglible since its around 5% at 2kish DPS, and that's more or less the difference between using specials or not.
If you prefer a 1 button spam then you can sacrifice your dps... but it's not preferable

@ Rodriquez: Yes, you can see its effect on char sheet

Barmbul · 09/27/08, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by hellord

@ Vulmio
@ Barmbul
There are different views, and anyway it mostly depends on your weapon speed and your haste. The faster you swing, the bigger the white loss from slam, while it gets better with slower speed due to non-normalization of the AP. So you can spam Slam and is easy, but you can't move, you still risk starvation (with a 3s avg swing you can go up to 4 seconds and you need 45 rage per rotation if you only Slam) and the DPS for a gcd of other specials is superior, only excluding Rend cause can't crit.

I didnt find so hard using every gcd using OP instead of a Slam when it lights up. It is very random and in a rend duration u can either have 3-4 procs or none so your DPS vary much.

Even in berz i wouldnt just slam spam but still try to keep MS and WW (and eventually Bladestorm if it worths) on cooldown. 100 dps difference is not so neglible since its around 5% at 2kish DPS, and that's more or less the difference between using specials or not.
If you prefer a 1 button spam then you can sacrifice your dps... but it's not preferable

I'm not promoting slam spam I just think its ridiculous that you could get that close to the same dps spamming one button on a old ability and totally ignoring all the new instants. I also did not see the DPS from a rotation that you did. You have all the SW onslaught pieces though so that my be the majority of the difference. My results for TG was almost exactly the same as Devimus's video

Dagronjr · 09/27/08, 6:06 PM

Does anyone know the rating to skill ratio for defense at level 80? I'm trying to do a little pre-planning with gear to be capable of running raids in a timely fashion once I hit 80. I tried looking around WoWWiki but didn't have any luck. Any help would be appreciated.

◊ Cireena · 09/27/08, 6:18 PM

This might be a place to look. Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks

Gruntle · 09/27/08, 6:27 PM

Slam spam won't scale nearly as well as TG though. The more haste you get the worse Slam will be (since a larger percentage of the white swing will be lost per slam), while TG scales excellent with haste.

Also, as far as I understood it Devimus video showed that TG outperfoms SD by about 20% over a 3 minute fight. You will be able to use Deathwish more often with a TG build so it is of course correct to compare the builds over a time period where this difference comes into play.

Soloman · 09/27/08, 10:14 PM

As far as I've been able to determine via PTR; the new TG debuff is always active regardless of weapons equipped. If this is incorrect please let me know.

That said allow me to preface this with the fact that I am a prot warrior, I tank. I have tried fury on multiple occasions however I have always found tanking to be more entertaining than DPS.

I was mostly screwing around with TG on the PTR trying to determine how effective a TG tank would be.

If it went live tommorrow with the current incarnation of talents, TG would be the hands down worst tank out of all the warrior specs. It would actually be worse than a 0/0/0 specced warrior for the simple reason that there is no way to overcome the hit penalty in tanking gear.

If anyone else has been doing similar testing and I missed it on this thread I'm sorry. I simply felt the need to point out how this would completely destroy Blizzard's plan for a TG warrior to ever tank anything.

Machinator · 09/27/08, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Slam spam won't scale nearly as well as TG though. The more haste you get the worse Slam will be (since a larger percentage of the white swing will be lost per slam), while TG scales excellent with haste.

Haste may be bad for arms, but thats really the only stat I can think of that TG has a significant advantage on. I dont see a huge difference in scaling.

• landsoul · 09/28/08, 12:55 AM

Slam spam does not get worse with more haste. It gets better at a slower rate.

Devimus · 09/28/08, 1:07 AM

Originally Posted by Soloman

As far as I've been able to determine via PTR; the new TG debuff is always active regardless of weapons equipped. If this is incorrect please let me know.

I noticed this as well, and reported it as a bug. Even after speccing out of TG, I maintained the TG penalty when trying a 2h spam slam build.

• landsoul · 09/28/08, 1:20 AM

This is correct. I switched out of TG spec to do some testing with non-TG spec with the hit cap and I missed a lot.

Mode · 09/28/08, 3:41 AM

GC cough up a new list of upcoming prot changes. Link and summary:

-Thunderclap's target limit is gone.
-Shield slam does more base damage.
-Revenge does more damage.
-Revenge can now proc sword and board.
-Armored to the Teeth now grants 2 AP per 360 armor (was 1 str per 400)

I am sad to see Armored to the Teeth be changed to a pure DPS warrior talent, but them's the breaks. Now if we can just get them to add Thunderclap to Booming Voice, we'll be solid gold in the tanking department.