mistersix

That change to Armored to the Teeth is a shame. Ah well, looks like my tank spec will have 3 more points to play around with.

edit: actually... ap still effects a number of tanking related talents including the damage of revenge, heroic throw, and thunderclap. Plus the threat associated with sunder. GC said they tweaked it to ap to avoid making it the "ultimate shield slam talent" but by swapping it over to ap it does have a pleasant benefit to revenge and thunderclap... both of which were in need of some oomph. Unless I'm mistaken about that talent rundown then it's still potentially a solid tanking talent. Right?

never mind the more dpsy or grindy effects on execute, victory rush, and intercept

 

Gruntle

This is of course correct, my wording was quite bad. Point still stands though, it scales significantly worse with haste than a varied cycle with Heroic strikes.

To Machinator: Well, 20% WF haste is a huge raid buff which Slam gets less benefit from.

 

Bregonn

In its current implementation I would never take Improved Spell Reflect. I think it needs to add the threat from the reflected spell to the tank or it would be a detrimental talent to take for non-raiding tanks (and it's considered not worth it for raiding tanks already).

There are 2 situations where Improved Spell Reflect can be used:

1. Mobs (usually bosses) doing AoE targetted spells (like shadowbolt volley) or spells which target random party members. While it is useful here you can do without for the simple reason that the other tanking classes don't have spell reflect and they must be able to tank it too.

2. When a castermob is not under control and targetting your healer or a DPS'er. This is one of the major annoyances in tanking 5-mans/heroics IME. It's hard to see, and you have to move to the castermob, often leading to further problems. If you try to help your healer/DPS'er with Improved Spell Reflect you actually make the problem worse, cause they now have even higher threat. Even if your healer is being hit, threatwise it's better to to have him soak the damage and heal himself than to reflect the spell (because damage = 1 threat, and healing = 0.5 threat, lowered further by talents).

This effect is totally counter-intuitive which makes it even worse. A lot of not-so-good tanks are going to shoot themselves in the foot with this. As said, it either needs to add the threat to the tank, or (if that's overpowered) not add any threat at all.

 

◊ Tejas

Currently you can't reflect an AoE spell, does Imp. Spell Reflection change that? I wouldn't think so, but haven't tried it myself to know for sure. Regardless, the 4% increased miss chance for spells is probably worth it alone.

 

Reliknom

The 4% spell "avoidance" seems quite worth it to me on its own for a raiding tank. What would interest me is: does this 4% stack with the 75% resist cap or will it only lower the requirements for getting resist capped?

"Morituri Nolumus Mori!"

 

Dra

It's actually just a nerf for any protection warrior if you take BoK and Vitality into consideration. At 20k armor you lose ~17 ap from this change. Plus, why would you increase the base damage of shieldslam and then just take off 150 again with this change? How does this fit into their scheme of making tanking more fun? It makes no sense to me, very disappointing.

 

Shha

They were clear that they dont want Armored to the Teeth to affect tanking as much as it was before. Its tier 1 talent, that arguably had more impact then cruelty (which is also 5 not 3 points). Im not sure how balance contradicts fun. Prot is a very solid tree now (well as tree i understand the general specs possible), and I hardly see the need for complaints.

 

Dra

They balanced the base shieldslam damage against the AttT change (I realise we dont know the final numbers on the shieldslam change but it makes no difference for my argument). The talent is still good enough for a protection warrior but now it feels like it's only affecting a part of my skillset, rather than every skill I have (in fact it is excluding the most important one). To me, that constitutes less fun, but opinions are opinions.

 

Grubsnik

They are essentially removing the mitigation part of the talent, since they wanted it to be a dps increasing talent for fury warriors. Not a "must-have" mitigation talent for tanks.

with 20k armor it was giving you ~114 block value after talents and buffs. You still have the option of taking it for added threat, but it is no longer vital to a tank build.

 

Bregonn

You can't spell reflect AoE spells like Arcane Explosion for sure, but I thought you can reflect spells which target multiple persons (as opposed to targetting an area) like shadowbolt volley. I might be wrong though and in any case I'm not sure if it actually reflects it or just saves you the damage taken. If it doesn't reflect these spells there's even less reason to take Improved Spell Reflect.

The problem with 4% less damage taken is that, as discussed a few pages back in this threat, for the big spells you can't count on it saving you, so you should still play as if it isn't there. And there aren't much bosses who do lots of small magical attacks, in which case if would save your healers some mana.

 

Liar

You can definitely reflect some volleys. Like the Shadowbolt Volley in BM (you can also reflect Time Stop but that is just plain guessing ). Don't think you can SR the Volley of Sathrovarr but I honestly never tried to either.

My gripe with Imp SR is just the threat issue and the fact that a party member can eat your SR charge when you need it yourself. I am quite fond of SR tanking some casters in MgT or SH but on some pulls a healer might end up with aggro until you fix it 5-10 secs in. Now imagine you SR then and see a spell reflected - except, you reflected an Immolate on your healer who you just gave even more aggro.

4% chance to get missed is pretty nice on top of this. It may not be all that good but considering that Warriors don't really have a better choice past Imp D-stance and resist gear to mitigate spell damage, I'd say it's not a bad talent.

Fix SR charges and threat and this will be a great talent (provided there are will be encounters that take advantage of it - but that should be a given since SR is turning into a Prot Warrior signature move).

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is the spec I am currently considering. It doesn't have Imp SR and Imp Revenge. The reasoning for the former is explained above (it needs fixing) and the latter is that Revenge is, even after the buff, still meh. They really need to give Imp Revenge a better secondary effect that is not going to completely suck in raids like a stun. That, and the fact that it's mostly useless when you are two-tanking a mob (BB, RoS etc) so I'm going to improve my Devastate, Shield Slam and general overall threat before I even think about Revenge.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Branar

Is there info on the exact buff Revenge has received, or are you calling it "meh" because of the aforementioned uselessness on fights like BB and RoS?

I think if its damage is buffed significantly enough, it's entirely possible that Improved Revenge will turn out to be better than Puncture at the very least. I'm not a very mathy person, but with Revenge proccing S&B it's entirely possible that instead of a 2:1 Devastate:Revenge ratio on fights with a normal rotation, you'd be much closer to a 1:1 ratio. S&B procs replace Devastates in most cases, which reduces the usefulness of Puncture.

 

Fqubed

SR only needs to grant the aggro from the reflect to the war, after that its perfectlly fixed. Has anyone posted something long these lines in the beta boards?

 

Soloman

I was running some tests on Damage Shield today (yeah i'm still deaf).


At the moment Shield Mastery, Imp Defensive Stance, Cruelty and Impale all increase the damage it returns to the target. One hand spec does not, this seems like a bug and I have reported it as such.



Also, the fact that Impale works on it is yet another thing for people to toss into calculations when determining it's threat.

 

Hidden

Are you sure that that's not the case currently?
Our MT always had plenty of threat after reflecting the caster wave's shadow bolts in Hyjal - enough that I could DPS for at least 5 seconds without pulling aggro.

 

Branar

He's talking about Improved Spell Reflect, not the base ability. When you use it to reflect a spell directed against another player, the intended target of the spell gets the threat increase, not the warrior.

 

Grubsnik

Meh, too slow posting.

 

Mode

3. Boss/mob has a random target mechanism, e.g. Maiden, that trash in late Mana Tombs that spams Immolate on the party.

Even if spell reflect isn't 'necessary' for any encounter save ROS, we'd all be lying like dead dogs if we didn't say was pretty sweet. For example, those trash mobs in SSC that have a reflectable 16k spell cry out for a warrior to tank them, but if you don't have enough warriors, you CAN have a druid tank it these days.

 

Vulmio

I have a quick question for anyone on the tests servers about the new Enrage talent (fury). Does this proc from AoE in pve like Kalecgos aoe for example, or any kind of fire rain boss ability ? Does this proc if I walk in the flames of Supremus or Archimonde ?
If this is the case that could be a nice pve talent (not that I walk often in Archimonde's flames !!!).

 

mistersix

Even with the ap change to armored to the teeth isn't it better for overall threat than impale?

 

Calcabrina

 

Liar

This alone doesn't really prove much. He is wearing some PvP gear (Mace atleast, maybe boots, can't figure out the rest) and Enrage already procs in PvP gear from your resilience chance. We'd need a proper screenshot in full PvE gear (0 Resilience) to prove this.

[EDIT]Apparently WoWhead shows Enrage from being able to proc from any damaging source. Must have missed that. :x[/EDIT]

Maybe. It depends on how much rage we will have when MTing and OTing to tell. I still think it's a silly talent since it's usage is just too limited (it only works when you MT) while a low rage Devastate is pretty nifty for MTing, OTing and DPSing.

I also really don't like how they are trying to make us DPS with 1h/Shield by nerfing Devastate and buffing SS and Revenge damage. Why can't they just include a Devastate damage increase with S&B (not crit chance, actual damage)?

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Gink

Are you sure Enrage didn't proc because of PvP gear? Have anyone tested it on AoE damage without any resilience?

Edit: Tyds posted at the same time >_>

Gink

 

Solifer

It s not! Yes, it needs to grant the aggro to the tank for sure. But thats not all. There are still points which suck imho.

1) 4% miss is nice on the paper, but as mentioned before u can t calculate it in critical situations. Why not switching to 4% less dmg? Would result in 20% less caster dmg with improved def stance, something u CAN calculate.

2) I d still like to reflect a spell, if I active SR. So being able to reflect a spell on a teammate should be additional, not removing the reflect from the tank who might need it. But that might be overpowered...

3) The tooltip says "group", so it s not working on the closest raidmembers I guess. Well, since most buffs work raidwide with 3.0, this isn t such a big point any more, cos you can stack the most "critical" players in your group and don t need to build a perfect synergy-group.



Away from SR, still no news on intervene / saveguard? Does ANYONE of the tanks want to have that talent? None of the posted skilltrees here in the forum had this talent included... just because the alteratives were better or is just .... bad as I think it is?

 

Sabethaya

Well 18,000 Armor give 100 AP per point in AttT; 27,000 Armor gives 150 AP per point in AttT.

White damage goes up 7.14 DPS * 1.10 [One-Handed Weapon Specialization] = 7.86 DPS with 100 AP [AP/14 DPS].
Heroic Strike has the normal swing damage which is the part that scales with AP, so it can be ignored for this.
Cleave does weapon damage to both enemies, so for a single target, the AP scaling part is the same as a normal swing, too.
Devastate does 50% weapon damage, so 100 AP adds 7.14 DPS * 0.50 * 0.35 [with Sword and Board, I'm guessing Devastate will be around 35% of our GCDs] * 1.10 [One-Handed Weapon Specialization] = 1.37 DPS at 100 AP.

Revenge adds 9.3% of AP [5 second CD, but usually used in 6 sec cycle]
Thunder Clap is affected by AP [probably only do this once every ~30 seconds to keep it up]
Heroic Throw adds 50% of AP [1 minute CD]
Concussion Blow adds 75% of AP [30 second CD]
Shockwave adds 75% of AP [20 second CD]

Of those with short cooldowns that would seem to make the most difference:

Revenge is 9.3 damage / 6 seconds [at 100 AP] = 1.55 DPS * 1.10 [One-Handed Weapon Specialization] * 1.20 [Improved Revenge] = 2.05 DPS per point in AttT at 18,000 Armor.

White+Dev+Rev = 10.56 DPS per talent point at 18,000 Armor. This is a 1% increase per talent point if you do 1,056 DPS at 18,000 Armor; how does this compare to Incite?

Edit: Forgot about crits. Without Incite, the damage of White+Dev+Rev is multiplied by 1+CritChance, so it would add 10.56 DPS * 1.20 = 12.67 DPS with a 20% crit chance, meaning that it gives greater than a 1% DPS increase per point in the circumsatances above if your DPS is 1,267 without it.