Borodin

I don't think you can even self-cast it. If you can not sure if the 3-hit duration is still current.

 

Bronwyn

Ouch, I'm sorry. It -is- early in the moring over here in Germy. Doubt that this will count as an excuse though. Thanks for clarification!

 

Moogul

I don't see how Deep wounds will increase the value of Unending Fury when it's not affected by yellow damage at all. I'd agree with around a 0.75-0.8% increase, but that's including impale (and deep wounds).

It's certainly better than the old talent, but I suspect that for most fights enrage will be better point for point.

Ijago <Casual Jerks>

 

Dots

The 3-hit limit was removed, but you can't cast Vigilance on yourself anyway.

 

Khab

About the -15%hit in TG, i think Blizz meant all Ability that yellow dmg. But they really messed with the tooltip that's all.

Autoswing require Melee Weapon as well, according to the tooltip auto attack should be getting -15% hit, but apparently it's not for me.
And BT is confused as well, because you can alway do BT while not having a MH Weapon or disarmed.

Basicly this change and the Pummel, Harmstring change mean that TG don't affect Pummel and Harmstring, that is the main purpose of blizz. Surely they don't want TG Warrior alway get resist on their Demo Shout, Miss on Pummel(which mean wipe for many boss fights) and miss on Harmstring .

I almost done my test and get some basic idea for new Prot tree, after Blizz done with their new change to Fury Tree i'll get in PTR and doing my test as well as the Theory crafting if hit is really needed as a no-brain choice to make TG Spec work.


My main idea is doing a 300s hitting something, trying to see how many HS, how many Instant Slam, BT, WW and autoswing i done. After that base on the attack table of each of those skills i'll get the dmg benifit from AP,STR,Hit,Crit and see which one give the best scaling.

 

Graul

So then why do auto attack crits cause DW to tick for 116 damage yet my full rage crit Executes are causing up to 215 per tick? Also TG's miss penalty still bones any Fury Warrior trying to tank.

 

Moogul

Are you sure this isn't because of them 'rolling'? My understanding is that Deep Wounds now 'rolls' like (current) ignite - when you crit, the total deep wound damage gets added to the remaining deep wounds damage (and then capped, possibly at 2xtotal deep wound damage), this gets redistributed over 6 ticks, and then it carries on ticking. So if you get 2 crits back to back, your deep wounds will be ticking for a lot more.

It's possible that it does depend on the damage of the crit that triggers it, and not base weapon damage, in which case it would be quite interesting. I'm hopefully going to test some mechanics on the PTR tonight (spent last night catching up on missed patches) to see exactly what happens.

Ijago <Casual Jerks>

 

Graul

Hmm, it does appear to just add the leftover damage to the new DW. I stand corrected. The easiest way to test it was to simply use Recklessness and then Heroic as my first attack. Even with the added damage it's still ticking for the same as an auto attack.

 

Darkrenown

Edit: I fail at reading.

 

Borodin

2 AP per 360 Armour per talent point = 6 AP when fully talented; Prinsesa was right.

At my guess of 30,000 Armour for a geared Level 80 that's a neat 500AP.

 

hellord

New Sudden death changes

Seems they really want this ability to be useful in battle stance. At least I only can explain that 10 rage left.
Practically after an execute You will have no rage for anything but Rend, a Shout or Overpower.
We'll see how they will buff it (GC said something like 15% more damage) and coupled with Glyph of executioner could be reasonable RANDOM proc to use in Arms rotation.

While in berserker stance you probably won't be able to use it unless you are <1.5 seconds from a swing, it can be used in conjunction with a Rend refresh and OP since you'll only need to be <3 speed (2.5 speed in case you have 2/2 unrelenting assault).

One thing I would like to try is if SD still procs under 20% health, since those procs can grant something like execute every gcd, and that's not bad at all if they buff its damage.

Personally I didn't have many problems in dealing with RNG factor of OP or SD (well SD still needs my attention on swingbar), but i think that keeping track of the good opportunities of using both SD and T4B procs in a raid situation or pvp is really hard. That probably can be done on dummies, but it's also a very ranomizing factor for your DPS.

In the last 3 days i did different tries with the same spec on dummies and BL Servant.
Good tries still range from 1600 to 1900 DPS unbuffed and with no sunders on dummy. It's quite a lot of difference made up by OP when fully talented (and it definetly outdamage any other ability per GCD), but there are Rends where you don't get it at all in 6 ticks (Glyph of Rend).
Execute is the new "Slam" since you cant really use it out of BL or without staring at the swingbar to check if your next GCD will be up AFTER a white swing...


SoA changes

Strenght of arms partly makes up the difference of loosing Weapon Mastery, and from a PVE pov the change from health to stamina won't count much. Anyway there is still no real direct benefit for being in battle stance outisde Rend-OP opportunity (and randomness).

Bladestorm

Bladestorm is still a DPS decrease if used on a single target since it costs 4 GCDs, but it could be reasonably useful when you have some rage starvation.

Unending Fury changes

Unending Fury is finally a decent talent worth of 10th tier. It should also scale very well. The WW bonus is multiplicative or additive with Imp WW? (+25% WW damage or +26%?)

my 2 cents

Anyway some good change at least for once. Can't test them on PTR yet but i'm quite interested to understand if changes to SD can increase the difference between Battle and Berserker stances.
At first glance i'd say there are more opportunities to use it in Battle but it can become the 3rd instant in a Berz stance rotation.

ArP Whore

 

Cranium

So there has been a lot of talk about itemization on these forums lately in regards to hit and how DPS plate might look different now that we need to stack so much more hit to counterbalance TG. While that might be fine, I can't remember anyone mentioning the T7 items.

Now granted even though we might need 19% more hit in our gear, that alone does not warrant another set just for fury. However, the current T7 looks like it was tailor made to the arms tree. Has anyone else noticed this?

2 Piece: Slam damage + 10%

The current numbers show one slam for fury every what, 18 seconds give or take? If you have a free GCD when it pops. Whereas arms warriors mash it like there is no tomorrow from what I've read here.

4 Piece: Your Bleed periodic effects have a chance to make your next ability cost 5 less rage.

Last I checked, a base fury warrior shouldn't have any bleeds at all. We either need to go three tiers into arms or switch to battle stance to use rend.


This is of course not the end of the universe by any stretch of the imagination, and I'm sure the later sets, as they have in the past, will be vastly different. It just seems like they could have done better if this is only DPS warrior t7 set.

I also am noticing that there are no two handed weapons past the badge axe without stamina on them. Anything here think that is by design now?

 

Moogul

Looking at the current trees, I think that at 80 any TG warrior that doesn't go up to 2h spec in Arms (hence picking up Deep Wounds along the way) is making a big mistake, an arms subspec is far better than a prot subspec (even with Incite).

The set bonuses aren't amazing, but at least we wont be tied to them for ages and will be free to pick up actual upgrades.

Ijago <Casual Jerks>

 

Voxx

The SD changes seem to be the most important out of this batch, to me at least.

If you see a SD proc in arena, then pop Recklessness and start spamming away (with Imp Execute talent) there's a decent chance that you get 3 Execute crits and 2 white crits in 4.5 seconds. If you dual wield fast weapons then the chance is increased as well, try dual wielding two weapons at 1.7 seconds with flurry (~2.1 without) and you can land roughly 5 white attacks in the span of 3 global cooldowns, all of which are guaranteed to crit. If your first SD proc and white hits in the gcd manage to proc another SD then you can continue to spam SD without any issues of not having quite enough rage from the small white hits, or even not enough rage due to hitting a shield of some sort.

Granted, this small change isn't what makes the scenario that amazing - it could happen without the change - it's still pretty substantial that you can now potentially back to back SD if you get the procs without needing any other rage income.

I'm pretty sure almost every TG spec is going to include Deep Wounds because it's new form is pretty nice (tick per second and I think rolling damage) and unless I'm mistaken about the mechanics, Deep Wounds is a bleed and should proc the rage decrease. Granted, that doesn't make it good, we still don't really need the rage efficiency from what I've seen.

 

levk

From their wording it's not clear they're keeping the anytime proc on crit part.

 

Voxx

To be fair, it's not really clear that they've changed that either. From my standpoint it looks like the 10 rage after use is an added feature to Sudden Death, not a replacement of the anytime crit proc.

 

Grayson Carlyle

Can you explain how you arrived at that? Cause I'm seeing it "cost" 3 GCDs but you gain 6. Spend 1 GCD on the ability like any other attack, but lose the ability to use the next 3 GCDs. For this you get 7 Whirlwinds, effectively 3 more GCDs than what you just used. Even if those 3 GCDs were used on overpowers and they all crit, that's only doing just as much damage as an extra 6 WWs that didn't crit. I cannot possibly see a way Bladestorm is a DPS decrease.

 

Darian_TruBlade

I don't know if Enrage will be better, for a couple of reasons. 1) It doesn't stack with Death Wish. With Intensify Rage you will receive no benefit from Enrage 25% of the time. 2) Decent uptime requires periodic, dependable raid damage. Sporadic or focused raid damage won't properly maintain the buff.

Assuming that bosses with periodic damage do so an average of once every 5 seconds, we have Enrage uptime of approximately 58% when not under the effects of Death Wish. In order for Enrage to be, on average, equivalent to UF we need 80-90% of all bosses to have direct, periodic damage. I don't believe we can assume we'll be seeing that kind of consistency in Wrath.

Enrage will be better than UF on specific fights, but I think that Enrage's inconsistency and situational nature makes UF the better choice.

 

JTLJudoMan

Do the ~two white swings you would have gotten in the 6 seconds make a difference?

 

Gink

You still get white hits during Bladestorm, so you don't lose any white damage using it.

Gink

 

JTLJudoMan

Ah. Ok. Yeah I'm not too sure how it is a dps decrease either. Perhaps before they changed it to happen every 1 second vs 2 seconds it was a dps decrease vs single target but in its current form it seems as though it wouldn't be anything but an increase.

 

Calcabrina

Looking at WOTLK loot tables on sites like mmo-champion, i guess that fury TG warriors will aim at only 2 set pieces (choosing any of them which has hit rating).
The rest of our equipment will be made of off-set pieces (at the moment developers are creating many plate items with massive strength/crit rating/hit rating).
In my opinion, the first set bonus is good even to a TG warrior. I know, we dont have any spreadsheet atm, so my words are a shot in the dark, but it's possible to guess that slam will replace harmstring in our rotation, even when it's not istant cast. I tried an hypothetical rotation on ptr server and you can insert a 1,5s slam while bt and ww cooldowns are running and heroic strike is doing its work. Depending on bloodsurge proc, it will be istant or not, but imho it is not decisive.

 

Grymm

Well, if you have 3.4 speed weapons with WF and flurry up (no passive haste), you should be swinging at around 2.27 seconds. Slam doesn't hit much more often than a white hit (24% miss vs. 28% miss) so you're giving up 66% (1.5 seconds of 2.27 seconds) of a white attack round (162.5% weapon damage a round mcgd negated). If it wasn't for glance/impale, you would probably lose dps by trying to slam. It would tough to justify it's use over HS. This was broken down a few pages ago. Personally, I do not enjoy channeling melee attacks and the animation has always been horrible. Now if slam worked like steady shot...............

 

Gink

I can only add that trying to use 1.5 second Slams on PTR always resulted in a DPS loss for me, according to Recount.
This was at 70, TG/incite build. It may look different at 80 with Impale and 2-hand spec. An idea might be to let the off-hand swing while channeling Slam.

Gink

 

Duranthor

I dunno, I am still not sold on the fury changes. Unending Fury is a good talent as far as it goes, but I am leary about spending 5 points to increase the damage of only 3 moves.

which made me think about this build.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I will address the downsides first:
No Imp heroic strike, Impale, Deep Wounds, No imp WW

These are all big deals however, I'm inclined to think that the 10% increased damage to everything will more than balance out the loss of these talents. Further the 15% increase chance to crit with heroic strike and the increase in ATP form Toughness because of armed to the teeth will probubly more than compensate for any other dps loss you might have. And with the Heroic strike Glyph, you want to use heroic strike and crit with it as often as you can.

I am at work so I have obviously not done the math yet, but here is what I am thinking.

Bascially you would be able to skimp on hit still, stack crit and haste and keep BT and WW on cool down while spaming heroic strike the rest of the time. You dont' have to worry about blood surge cool downs or the effect of slams, you don't have to worry about lame itemization choices, and you maintain your high ratio of yellow to white damage very easily.

I like the versitility of the build, when I get home I will respec on the beta and see what I think.