These are all big deals however, I'm inclined to think that the 10% increased damage to everything will more than balance out the loss of these talents
Remember you're also losing 2 handed spec, which is a 6% increase to everything. The 4% extra you got from 1 handed spec, plus Incite, will not outperform Impale, Deep Wounds, Imp WW and TG. I think we can be fairly certain of that, at least I'd be surprised if it did.
Edit: Here's the build I'm thinking will be used at 80. Don't know if I might drop one point in UF to get 3/3 Intensify Rage. Keep in mind that UF increases damage of BT, WW and Slam by 2% per point now. Also depends on how much raid damage there will be that can proc Enrage. Guess we'll have to wait and see anyways. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12052121501351
Don't be fooled into thinking Armoured To the Teeth makes Toughness good for dps. At level 70, a dps warrior in full plate would be about 10k armour give or take, 10% more from Toughness = 1k armour, which with 3/3 AttT would give a whopping 18 extra ap.
18 AP for 5 talent points?
It'll scale to a similar level in Wrath, it will never be justified to take Toughness for AttT. If you want the armour to offtank, fine, but it doesn't have much synergy with AttT.
Unfortunately with the current ratio on AttT, it doesn't encourage Plate at all. Armour makes AttT good, unfortunately AttT does not make armour good.
I was under the impression (possibly mistaken) that Toughness provided no synergy with AttT. That is, that additional armor from Toughness was not included in AttT calculations. I thought it was mentioned somewhere in this thread but I can't be sure.
Originally Posted by Gink
Remember you're also losing 2 handed spec, which is a 6% increase to everything. The 4% extra you got from 1 handed spec, plus Incite, will not outperform Impale, Deep Wounds, Imp WW and TG. I think we can be fairly certain of that, at least I'd be surprised if it did.
Edit: Here's the build I'm thinking will be used at 80. Don't know if I might drop one point in UF to get 3/3 Intensify Rage. Keep in mind that UF increases damage of BT, WW and Slam by 2% per point now. Also depends on how much raid damage there will be that can proc Enrage. Guess we'll have to wait and see anyways. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12052121501351
After taking a brief look at Sudden Death and it's placement among other things, I can't see a Sudden Death build being practical for PvE. There's just too many "filler" talents to take that don't have enough synergy with other aspects of a SD build
I was under the impression (possibly mistaken) that Toughness provided no synergy with AttT. That is, that additional armor from Toughness was not included in AttT calculations. I thought it was mentioned somewhere in this thread but I can't be sure.
That may well be the case, but it sucks either way so it's a moot point really.
Remember you're also losing 2 handed spec, which is a 6% increase to everything. The 4% extra you got from 1 handed spec, plus Incite, will not outperform Impale, Deep Wounds, Imp WW and TG. I think we can be fairly certain of that, at least I'd be surprised if it did.
Edit: Here's the build I'm thinking will be used at 80. Don't know if I might drop one point in UF to get 3/3 Intensify Rage. Keep in mind that UF increases damage of BT, WW and Slam by 2% per point now. Also depends on how much raid damage there will be that can proc Enrage. Guess we'll have to wait and see anyways. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12052121501351
I was looking at one of the following, depending on whether there's a Paladins with Imp BoM in your raids. I'm also assuming that someone else will be able to cover the 50% healing reduction where necessary.
I skipped Piercing Howl as it seems incredibly situational as a raiding talent. Furious Attacks seems similarly situational, but also an talent requiring an "all-in" investment; If a healing debuff is necessary enough that you need to spec for it, the full reduction is probably necessary.
The issue I have is that I'd like to be able to take 2/2 in Improved Berserker Rage. Having that +20 rage on command is extremely helpful for smoothing over mistakes, or throwing on an extra Heroic Strike. However, now that UF is worth taking I find myself with a minor bloat problem.
Furious Attacks seems similarly situational, but also an talent requiring an "all-in" investment; If a healing debuff is necessary enough that you need to spec for it, the full reduction is probably necessary.
1/2 Furious Attacks will still reduce healing effects by 50%. The ppm of it is just lower, but from testing it on PTR dummies, it never dropped for me with 1/2. Of course it's situational, but I'd rather just have it permanently than having to respec for specific fights where it's needed. Having it also lets rogues use whatever poisons they prefer, and that's a good thing.
I also enjoy doing heroics and PvP (no problem doing BGs as a TG spec) in between raids, and that little extra utility is something I like having, situational or not.
The same goes for Commanding Presence.
I didn't bother with Imp Berserker Rage simply because, from spending a lot of time in front of a dummy, I never had any problem with rage as TG.
First I am not sure how good armed to the teeth will really be, however remeber that all ATP gains are amplified by imp zerker stance. It's not great mind you, but every little bit helps.
So the question stands can incite and 1 hand weapon spec compare to in essence a 20/51 build. Again I'm gonna say that I think there shouldnt' really be any question that it can. I mean there are easy things like, is 10% damage to 100% of your damage better than 20% to 60-70% where things will just be close. I do think that the rage you gain from heroic strike crits with the HS glyph is something that is not getting enough attention as far as dps goes. But honestly I think it more comes down to the fact that anyone using TG is going to have to spend 400 + points on hit itemization for an increase in white damage which is then going to be subject to glancing blows. I am thinking that spending that 400 rating on crit/haste instead is going to more than make up for any dps gap that their might be.
I mean it's fully possible that the world has changed, however I am still convienced that so long as Flurry remains central to warrior dps Crit is going to be the way to go. But who knows? It's all going to depend on Itemization in the end. I do not think that there is any question that it will be easier to get items for a none TG build, and from what I have seen from the dps gear so far it seems like blizzard hasn't learned a whole lot about itemization. Blue sockets for dps plate?? WTF where are my yellow and red sockets?? I think what will end up being true is that one hand dps will just be better than TG Until you reach a certain level of crit and haste at some point in end game because it's gonna take you awhile to get to the hit cap.
I think what will end up being true is that one hand dps will just be better than TG Until you reach a certain level of crit and haste at some point in end game because it's gonna take you awhile to get to the hit cap.
I have to disagree.
On the PTR, using the gear in my armory profile (150 hit rating, Glaive MH and MV OH), TG consistently outperformed the standard 17/44, with TotD in MH and Jin'Rohk OH. And this was as TG/incite. At 80 with Impale and 2 hand spec, TG will be even better.
150 hit rating (9.5%) + 3% from talents is not very much for a TG build, and still it wins.
Granted, this was at level 70, on a lvl 70 dummy, but I believe it's a good indicator that TG will be the way to go even in early 80 raiding, and I believe it will be fantastic with more gear.
1. noone seems to care about the new sweeping strikes glyph, why, it is AWESOME, with TG's super-spikey rage gen, whenever you are in risk of going to 100 rage you can pop it and offset that rage for a few seconds, reducing the extremity of rage spikes and wasted rage, better yet, its not on GCD, and could theoretically increase damage.
2. a DW execute build seems even stronger now, with 2T6 and improved execute, SD becomes self sustaining with the executes costing less than the rage to use them, a good haste build with fast weapons could really pound out the executes as fast as it could proc.
3. has anyone figured what the synergy is between all of our %scaling abilities now? axe spec, imp-ww, impale, wrecking crew, ect.
1/2 Furious Attacks will still reduce healing effects by 50%. The ppm of it is just lower, but from testing it on PTR dummies, it never dropped for me with 1/2. Of course it's situational, but I'd rather just have it permanently than having to respec for specific fights where it's needed. Having it also lets rogues use whatever poisons they prefer, and that's a good thing.
I also enjoy doing heroics and PvP (no problem doing BGs as a TG spec) in between raids, and that little extra utility is something I like having, situational or not.
The same goes for Commanding Presence.
I didn't bother with Imp Berserker Rage simply because, from spending a lot of time in front of a dummy, I never had any problem with rage as TG.
I'm of a very different mindset, but that's probably because I spend almost all of my time raiding.
You are right about Furious Attacks, I horribly misread the tooltip (forgot it stacked and made a bad assumption). I don't know if I'll be able to bring myself to putting a point in there, but that's because I'm obsessively OCD and seeing only 1/2 in a talent bothers me to the core of my soul. Logically speaking it's an almost negligible DPS loss (1 point in UW) compared to asking a Rogue to swap a poison or a Hunter to used Aimed Shot.
I'm guessing my T4 level gear has a lot to do with my love for Imp Berserker Rage. Down the line it shouldn't matter, as you've sagely noted.
Originally Posted by Hisstok
1. noone seems to care about the new sweeping strikes glyph, why, it is AWESOME, with TG's super-spikey rage gen, whenever you are in risk of going to 100 rage you can pop it and offset that rage for a few seconds, reducing the extremity of rage spikes and wasted rage, better yet, its not on GCD, and could theoretically increase damage.
You can't have both Sweeping Strikes and Titan's Grip.
1. noone seems to care about the new sweeping strikes glyph, why, it is AWESOME, with TG's super-spikey rage gen, whenever you are in risk of going to 100 rage you can pop it and offset that rage for a few seconds, reducing the extremity of rage spikes and wasted rage, better yet, its not on GCD, and could theoretically increase damage.
Good idea, but Sweeping Strikes is out of range of TG, sadly. Which I guess is why no one has thought of it. :P
Edit: As for your point number 2, I've tried a SD spec on the PTR, and it was fun but it didn't really compete with TG.
For lvl 70 raiding it looks to me that 53/8 will be the way to go. I've tried all the specs I could think of, and it was the one that was most successful for me.
I have tried so far on beta a 20/51, /15/46/8 at 80 and at 70 I have tried 17/44, and 15/46, as well as a TG build. I have tried these builds instances and on dummies. I haven't seen TG do better yet so I dunno.
The other day I tested a few different builds on the lvl 70 test dummies on the PTR with another warrior in group who had a better working damage meter then I did.
TG build with incite (0/53/8) was averaging 1600-1800 (S3 mace + stormherald) Only used the herald due to still having mongoose on it.
Arms build (51/10) with TfB/SD/OP talents was around 1400 (sword spec w/cats edge)
Arms build (same point distrubution) but just slam and filler points was doing the same.
DW 1Handers (17/44) was doing 1500-1600. (S3 sword + OH glaive)
I was probably not timing everything well with the arms build but it definitely is very RNG and has a more spaz playstyle if you stay in battle and focus more on SD and OP procs inbetween slams and MS.
One thing I noticed that was odd, was that when I was arms and had 10% hit in my gear, I was seeing the occasional miss on my yellow and white damage, which shouldn't be happening at all.
I also found it odd that the guy testing with me, Kronky, reporting doing 2000 dps with TG last week but had a hell of a time breaking 1100 when he was there with me. No idea what would have caused that unless his meters were reporting bad numbers.
The core problem with a SD dual-wield spec with the current talent trees is that there's not enough synergy with one hand weapons and the Arms tree. 2h spec is pretty obvious, Overpower is normalized but still benefits from slower weapons because it's proc-related, Slam with dual wield is shaky at best assuming Titan Grip, while Imp Slam might make it usable for fast weapons and SD I think it will be situational at best, Mortal Strike is also normalized but still slow weapons benefit more. I just don't think there's enough "pure" dps talents in Arms that benefit dual wielding to the extent that the Fury tree focuses on dual wielding, or that the Arms tree focuses on Slam with a 2h.
One thing I noticed that was odd, was that when I was arms and had 10% hit in my gear, I was seeing the occasional miss on my yellow and white damage, which shouldn't be happening at all.
There is a bug on the PTR that makes you either keep the TG miss penalty, or turns your +hit into miss after you spec out of it, if I remember correctly it's the latter.
The core problem with a SD dual-wield spec with the current talent trees is that there's not enough synergy with one hand weapons and the Arms tree. 2h spec is pretty obvious, Overpower is normalized but still benefits from slower weapons because it's proc-related, Slam with dual wield is shaky at best assuming Titan Grip, while Imp Slam might make it usable for fast weapons and SD I think it will be situational at best, Mortal Strike is also normalized but still slow weapons benefit more. I just don't think there's enough "pure" dps talents in Arms that benefit dual wielding to the extent that the Fury tree focuses on dual wielding, or that the Arms tree focuses on Slam with a 2h.
That lack of synergy is intentional. It may be simplified but in terms of their design philosophy GC has said:
arms is about a 2hander hitting hard
fury is about hitting fast with two weapons
prot is about hitting hard with your shield
They're not totally there yet with prot because some people still want to dw devastate (but they are getting closer by the day it seems). They are there with arms and fury at least in concept if not execution. They simply don't want arms builds dual wielding. Period.
I was under the impression (possibly mistaken) that Toughness provided no synergy with AttT. That is, that additional armor from Toughness was not included in AttT calculations. I thought it was mentioned somewhere in this thread but I can't be sure.
I can confirm that toughness does increase the Str gained from AttT (at least it did last build).
I've been doing alot of testing with Prot and that was one of the many things I checked on. I will recheck it when this build is released even though I no longer plan on taking it.
I can confirm that toughness does increase the Str gained from AttT (at least it did last build).
I've been doing alot of testing with Prot and that was one of the many things I checked on. I will recheck it when this build is released even though I no longer plan on taking it.
I'm still dying to know if impale will be better for tps vs. attt. Is 20% more damage 12% of the time enough to offset what basically amounts to ~150ish ap that impacts all your white swings, your revenge, your tclap, etc?
I also found it odd that the guy testing with me, Kronky, reporting doing 2000 dps with TG last week but had a hell of a time breaking 1100 when he was there with me. No idea what would have caused that unless his meters were reporting bad numbers.
He was probably using the lvl 60 training dummies.
That lack of synergy is intentional. It may be simplified but in terms of their design philosophy GC has said:
arms is about a 2hander hitting hard
fury is about hitting fast with two weapons
prot is about hitting hard with your shield
They're not totally there yet with prot because some people still want to dw devastate (but they are getting closer by the day it seems). They are there with arms and fury at least in concept if not execution. They simply don't want arms builds dual wielding. Period.
I agree with that sentiment, I don't really like the idea of Arms dual wielding either, it just "feels" wrong. All I was pointing out is that dual wield SD specs that once showed promise just don't seem to be showing promise anymore, and I don't think they will in the future. Which, again, I think is a good thing.
I'm still dying to know if impale will be better for tps vs. attt. Is 20% more damage 12% of the time enough to offset what basically amounts to ~150ish ap that impacts all your white swings, your revenge, your tclap, etc?
If you take into account that a lot of the prot talents also buff your crit chance on base abilities; I'm pretty sure crit comes out on top, more so if you spec into cruelty over attt.
Incite: 15% on thunderclap, cleave and heroic strike
Sword and Board: 15% on devastate. (note: when they put revenge in with this too, it might gain the crit bonus also)
Critical Block: 15% to Shield Slam on successful blocks.
Add to that I'm pretty sure our raid buffed crit rate will be closer to, if not higher than 20%. I think you're vastly underestimating the importance of crit. Especially when you take into account these higher crit rates on abilities which already have high threat modifiers on their damage (thunderclap especially).
Edit: on second thoughts, this probably comes out on top. The choice shouldn't be between impale and attt, but 3/3 attt 2/5 cruelty and 5/5 cruelty.
Thunderclap - removed target cap
Battleshout (Rank 9) - now 548 ap, down from 550 (NERF OMFG)
Revenge - new damage formula is 20.7% of ap + 1454 dmg on max rank (up from 9.3% + 652)
Shield Slam - Highest rank is 990-1040 base damage up from 756-794
Sword Spec - talent tooltip now properly indicates it cannot proc more than once per 6 seconds
Armed to the Teeth - 1/2/3 ap per 180 armor vs old 1/2/3 str per 400 armor
Sword and Board - revenge will now proc it
Vigilance - back to redirecting 10% of threat from target to you
Glyph of Resonating Power - Reduces the rage cost of your Thunder Clap ability by 5.0.
09/30/08, 4:08 PM
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