Also isn't the new armor pen utterly crap?

Have we even taken that into account on the itemization discrepancy between plate and leather?

Most of the plate things I'm seeing have arp on them...

Has anyone done the calculations to figure out how crappy the plate arp gear is to leather with the new reduction in arp value?

I would like to point out that Impale also affects Damage shield in addition to all the activated abilities. I haven't been able to determine if damage shield is using base crit or if it is affected by one of the talents yet though (like cruelty, or crit block).

meh! so what now? 2/2 improved revenge while dropping 2 points from cruelty? Assuming 2200 AP on lvl 80, revenge would be at 1900 dmg -> +20% = 2280 dmg. Regarding the standard 6 sec rotation, this would increase the dps by about 60. Pretty nice for a 2 point T3 talent, but would that outperform 2 points in cruelty?

Having 18000 unbuffed armor currently, this would increase my AP by 600. That s REALLY awesome as I got 800 AP raidbuffed on live O_O

18000/180=100*3=300, yes? Is my math off?

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Another warrior change

Two things of note with that change. First is that, obviously, arms warriors that roll in battle stance will have easier access to a fear-break. The second is that it may help address rage starvation while tanking (especially for fury warriors). At worst, if you're ever rage-starved to the point where you literally have no attacks available, it's a button you can press that will help.

So far I haven't gotten this to work on beta. Must be in an upcoming patch.

I will say this tho... talented revenge is a thing of beauty. I'm hitting with it as hard as my shield slams. It hits like a friggin' mack track now. Wow.

I'd be thrilled if today was October 1st, 2007. It is kind of annoying that while that helps us for PvE ( why was fear part of encounters anyways ), it really solves nothing for the reason that they changed it.

Pummel is still only Berserker and we still have that whole stunned in berserker stance -> rape scenario.

We still have the periodic effects on a raid encounter meaning we not only take the most damage but are forced into that stance still. I think its worthless to say 'well now battle stance is viable to be in all the time', it is still broken for anyone who is Deep fury. So on a min\max if you're fury you're either out or forced to respec. Not for raid utility, but because you need babysitting and don't have any panic buttons. Enraged generation of course just gives you life, doesn't stop damage on a cooldown longer than a pot or heath stone (sigh).

So the progession is, 1. band-aid fix, doesn't solve core issue.
2. They give improved bers stance in fury tree -% to dmg taken until you are normal on damage.
3. We all get given that talent ala Ice block and Innervate. It's pretty clear its broken in comparison to the all bonus DK stances, so pretty frustrating.

It's not utterly crap. Due to the way debuffs and rating stacks (in 3.0 debuffs are deducted before armor reduction from rating is applied), it works in a very different way.

From my spreadsheet calculations I get ArP rating to be fairly close in value to hit and str, but again this depends on the boss armor. For high armor bosses (7700) I get ArP rating to be on the order of 5% better than hit (which in itself is about 5% more valuable than str), for low armor bosses (6200) ArP rating loses about 20% in value, making it worse than hit/str/crit/haste.

Others have gotten different results though, but I think it's fair to say that even though the rating won't be quite as good as before (mainly because how it combines with debuffs), it's still a good stat.

edit: About Recklessness, anyone knows if Whirlwind offhand hits eats up charges or if each WW is counted as one attack?

Estimating final Threat Values for hits including crit potential.
This is an update to a post I made some weeks ago, updated following work done by Satrina (Tankspot) and build 9014 information.

Figures for a L80 using and arbitary 2,500 AP and 1,500 Block Value and a base 15% Crit chance.
Weapon is the Red Sword of Courage (L80 Epic Tank weapon).

I factored in the following:

Defensive Stance now 207.35% Threat
The new versions of all the spells with the AP contributions which have been calculated.
Satrina's latest work on the base threat values (Tankspot.com) and the latest build info.
Devastate now does NOT add Sunder Threat at any time, it's damage (50% Weapon + 101 per Sunder) + 5% AP threat.
Defensive Stance with 5/5 1H Weapon Spec for 10% damage and another 10% Damage from Enrage.
Target Armour - rather than estimating absolute values I've used the same DR values at 80 as at 70 i.e. we assume bosses start out with about 39% DR and debuffs reduce this to about 27%
All attacks are after all such debuffs are applied (other than the Devastate 1-4 lines themselves) so use a DR of 27%
Glance is 20% chance for 70% damage (only for the Autoattack entry)
Hit and Expertise capped so all attacks will land (and thus full Crit chance is available for specials).
Improved Thunderclap increases total damage by 30%
Thunderclap and Shockwave Crit Spells (150% damage)
Thunderclap base threat is 185% of it's damage, Heroic Throw 150% damage, everything else listed is 100% damage + whatever modifiers.
Improved Revenge taken and Build 9014 values used, Satrina has shown the new innate threat is 121.
Gag Order taken (+10% SS damage)
Incite, Sword & Board and Critical Block taken (+15% Crit chance to various attack)

Base 15% Crit chance and all the +15% Crit talents taken meaning for attacks that could crit an appropriate modifier was made to their damage e.g. Devastate would have a 30% chance to Crit for 100% extra damage for a net potential 30% damage increase (lower for TC and Shockwave)

What I don't yet know for sure or did not include:

Did not include Shield Block's boost to Block Value for Shield Slams
Did not include Glyphs (even the Blocking Glyph which is another near permanent 10% BV).
Thunderclap damage has apparently increased again but I have no info on this.
With today's increase to SS damage I wonder if the threat modifier as come down a bit but this is unknown so leaving it at the value Satrina calculated.

Here's the final threat values I get for a hit with crit potential as a damage modifier, these numbers look massive but I can find no flaw in my spreadsheet so far:

Some thoughts:

The classic Shield Slam > Revenge > Devastate order is retained of course but you will usually proc at least 1 extra SS during that SS for truly incredible TPS.
Heroic Strike threat is close to Devastate + Autoattack threat, only a small gap remains.
For most talent builds Devastate will still cost less rage and will have a chance to proc S&B so will remain ahead by more than these numbers show.
Both Concussion Blow and Shockwave exceed Devastate Threat.
Devastate Threat is now relatively too low or Thunderclap's is too high.
Shield Slam threat now looks quite insane - even before Glyphs, Meta Gems and Shield Block are added in.

EDIT: Thunderclap threat confirmed as now 185% of the damage, up form 175%; Heroic Throw included.
EDIT2: Damage Shield included; Revenge innate threat added.

A TG built will probably go 18 in arms for the 6% 2H-Damage, but what about enrage? Virtually all encounters in BT/Sunwell/Hyjal have some form of AoE damage that affects you, so 5/5 enrage would seem like a great way to get another flat 5% damage. I just can't think of where to save the points for this.

30% chance to proc off of damage. Most raid AoE is random rather then consistent and predictable. You'd need a reliable way to receive at least 3 ticks of damage within the 12second period, aka a tick every 4 seconds.

- Extremely fight dependent, on fights like RoS p3 or Kalec where a very specific raidwide damage aura ticks it would probably be great, on fights where you're taking very little/no damage at all like Brut then it would be wasted.

- RNG dependent, it can be extremely unreliable, include in it the chance for you to resist some damage spells and it gets even harder to keep it up reliably.

If you're still allocating points into Puncture, I'd take them from that for Imp Revenge instead of from Cruelty. Barring any future changes, Puncture is kinda worthless compared to almost anything else you can take in its place. With Revenge being brought back into all rotations (and not just something to use when ragestarved) and S&B procs giving free SS any rage you would have saved with puncture more than cancels out, esp when you take into consideration what you gain in its place.

Something like this would be really solid @ 80.

A lot of specs still include Impale and some filler talents to get it. As a tank, I would much rather pick up some more utility instead of a minor DPS increase, unless it is really required. Something like Improved Spell Reflection, Improved Demo if it turns out to be the same as in TBC, maybe even Improved Disciplines.

didn t pick puncture any more. I got 1 point in Anger Management for better raidflow and it s even better than 1 point in puncture.

So the question for me now stands as follows:

a) cruelty 4/5 -> revenge 0/2
b) cruelty 2/5 -> revenge 2/2

I m going for impale, so I can t take away talentpoints from the arms tree (I d like to leave out improved HS due to the revenge glyph and I think I don t need improved Charge, but sadly impale is T3, not T2). Further, I don t see any def talent I could leave out in exchange for improved revenge, so I can just pick those points off of cruelty or armored to the teeth. As ATTT scales pretty well with better gear and as many talents are affected by AP, I think I can t leave that out.

Improved Revenge would boost the aggro to 5365... I think that boost would outperform 2% crit on all 4 attacks even with impale.



5x Devastate with 2 more points in cruelty:
2041 + (2041*2.2*0.02) = 2131

Revenge with 2 more points in cruelty, but 0/2 improved revenge:
4471 + (4471*2.2*0.02) = 4668

SS with 2 more points in cruelty:
7506 + (7506*2.2*0.02) = 7836

-> Rotation: 2794 TPS


If I leave out the additional 2% crit and therefor take improved revenge:

5x Devastate:
2041

improved Revenge:
5365

SS:
7506

-> Rotation: 2825

As I got no idea bout white hits, i can t count them in, means cruelty TPS would still go up for a bit, but I don t think that 2% crit on white hits would give more than 31 TPS.

If I m correct regarding the 30% crit chance on most talents as Borodin said, impale would give some hundret TPS, that s not minor...

At the moment 1h spec is only granting a 9% increase in Defensive Stance. The modifier is messed up somewhere, the enrage does give 10% in Dstance, and 11% in Battle/Zerk (swap to battle/zerk while it's active).


This really won't hugely affect the numbers, just thought I should point this out.

I tested this on the PTR just now, hoping that the new patch had fixed this, but no. After a few minutes of smashing on a dummy I never missed a Shield Slam. Sunder does not miss because it does no damage. BT and HS suffers from the TG penalty like normal, while using a shield. I only tested on dummies in SW, so I can only assume Revenge suffers from the TG penalty like BT and HS does.
TC does not seem to suffer from TG penalty.
I don't think the TG penalty is going to make us unable to tank, but I'd like to see the penalty removed while using a shield none the less.

Edit: I just tried the same using a 1 hander + shield. After about 5 minutes of only using BT and HS, I had no misses. It seems we can equip a normal one hander while tanking to avoid the TG penalty.

This is with 12.5% hit on a lvl 70 dummy.

Hm, right now, just taking Sunwell, it would have a reasonably good uptime in the following encounters:

Kalecgos (arcane buffet, curse, shadow volley)
Felmyst (aura ticks every 3 secs)
Twins (shadow blades, flame sear)
M'uru (shadow volley, chain lightning thing in phase II)

TPS is not a concern in 3.0. Impale costs more than just 2 points, at least 2 more points are simply fillers. For DPS purposes, Cruelty or AttT could be competitive, but that would take some math to figure out. It is also worth mentioning that Revenge does not have a +15% crit talent and it will be a major part of the tanking rotation with the recent changes.

Anyway, I prefer having more tools and options instead of just higher numbers, it makes tanking as a warrior a lot more fun.

Confirmed and post edited

-Soloman
Hmm I remember 1H Spec being buggy a few builds back but right now my sheet calculates the ideal that all bonuses are active and working correctly so 0.9 (Stance) x 1.1 (1H Spec) x 1.1 (Enraged) is used for all the damage components.

/sign.

Tho those talents I d like to use need some "fixing" at first - I won t take them as they are. To name them:

-intervene / saveguard: would love to use it in raids on another tank - tactical usefull with dmg reduction. But with its current -10% aggro factor (for me it feels like Blizzard just added this to make it unusable on tanks) I don t see any point in picking up saveguard. Just for usage on an AoE-DD once in a lifetime? nah.

-improved shield reflect: I m using SR pretty often - as long as caster attacks are reflectable. I stated earlier that I love it for "ranged tanking". But with its current behavier, it s just a bad tallent for me. I can t be sure, that I ll reflect a spell - cos maybe one of my groupmembers do it. So I d just get hit, might be bad allready, additionally I wouldn t get the aggro which I was thinking of using SR and finally the guy who reflected now got that aggro. Thats THREE points in one spell, which kill the talent for me. As I mentioned before as well, the aggro needs to go to the tank and the tank's SR should be saperate from the other groupmembers.

I d drop impale for those talents for sure, but not yet in its current build.