WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 110

Excession · 10/02/08, 2:03 AM

Originally Posted by Voxx

Edit: Shaman Flurry nerfed to 5/10/15/20/25% just like ours now. Guess there goes all hope in them reverting the change to our Flurry.

Apparent Shaman Flurry and Dual Wield Spec are going back up again: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> More Enhancement changes

We can but hope.

mistersix · 10/02/08, 2:37 AM

Originally Posted by Lemurian

I just wanted to ask a question to those of you in the beta about some of the talents that don't really look all that hot on paper but might have some usefulness in Wrath.

First would be Imp Disarm: I was curious if anyone has reported a good amount of mobs / bosses in WotLK that can be disarmed.

Imp Disciplines: Do you find yourself having to use Shield Wall/Retaliation/Recklessness a lot more to warrant getting the cool down reduced?

Puncture: With Revenge now proc'ing S&B does that just completely obliterate the usefulness of this talent or does it still shave off enough rage over the duration of a fight to carry its own weight?

Safeguard: *ducks incoming volleys of tomatoes* I've read a lot of you are pretty much leaving this talent for the wolves with the latest intervene changes, but I was wondering if there might be fights where this would be worth it, i.e. Claw Rage in ZA where someone is getting focused on by the boss for a period of time.

Vigilance: I was just wondering if anyone has developed particular strategic uses for this? Or is it basically find the highest DPS'er, throw it on them, and when/if they pull aggro they get 3% extra survivability to scream in terror.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Not sure about imp disarm. I'm not sure if the damage buff is just personal or raid wide. Regardless I think it's only up for a few seconds so I'm not sure how much of a boost it would be even if many bosses were disarmable

Imp disciplines doesn't seem to be all that worth even given all this talk about retaliation tanking the devs were so keen on awhile back.

Puncture (and imp hs) suffers from just being a rage efficiency talent which is dubious in the new world.

Safeguard is meh until we know more about the encounters. Prolly more of a pvp talent really.

Ultramax · 10/02/08, 2:52 AM

There are just not enough disarmable bosses for imp disarm to be worthwhile. Perhaps it will work on every boss in Ulduar but of the shipping raid content I can only recall Faerlina, Heigan, and Horsemen being disarmable. Razuvious maybe, but I always mind control there and have not done the 25 version.

Majority of heroic bosses don't even wield a weapon and when they do they are often immune to disarm anyway.

Soloman · 10/02/08, 2:57 AM

Originally Posted by Taliafears

The only strategic use of Vigilance I've thought of is to have your offtank put his Vigilance on the main tank in hurtful strike fights (Gruul, etc). Since the main tank has more ability to generate threat, it should help even things out and ensure dps don't beat 2nd threat. And the main tank gets damage reduction to boot.

I felt I should point out that Vigilance overwrites Blessing of Sactuary.

Cobalt · 10/02/08, 3:30 AM

So what are the 'it' builds right now? Arms...Fury...Prot? Just kinda wondering. Want to stay current.

Tankietka · 10/02/08, 6:05 AM

I'm thinking about this arms build.

Still not sure whether to put full 2 points in Unrelenting Assault. Also not sure if there will be reason to use SD-Execute from time to time - all this will have to be tested.

Most probably remaining 5 points will be used to get SD 3/3 and Improved Execute 2/2 (so Execute can be used when there is not enough rage for Slam).

If however Execute will not be viable, then I will probably get some utility talents, Improved Bloodrage/Improved Thunder Clap or maybe Piercing Howl.

Dra · 10/02/08, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Soloman

I felt I should point out that Vigilance overwrites Blessing of Sactuary.

I always felt they should just get rid of vigilance and instead give us some sort of 'sanctuary shout'.

Soloman · 10/02/08, 8:02 AM

Originally Posted by Dra

I always felt they should just get rid of vigilance and instead give us some sort of 'sanctuary shout'.

Tbh I'd rather they scrapped Sanctuary and rolled it into imp RF for paladins.

Then tag the 10rage from avoidance into dodge and parry (1/2/3/4/5% chance to dodge = 2/4/6/8/10 rage when you dodge etc) and beef up the druid version accordingly.

then alter vigilance to a debuff similar to hunters mark off the GCD(no agro) which refreshes the cooldown of spell reflect or revenge each time that target hits something other than you. (if it casts something it refreshes SR if it hits something it refreshes revenge)

Also I was testing a couple things out today, imp Spell Reflect has a range of about 10-12yards (roughly the same range as tclap)

Shockwave's cone seems ~140 degrees. pretty much if its in front of you you'll hit it. Compared to what I read on the beta boards either they increased the arc or else those people are all blind. (its about 3x as wide as the animation.)

Bronwyn · 10/02/08, 8:16 AM

A couple of pages ago, someone asked this:

Whirlwind with 2 weapons consumes 2 charges of recklessness.
EDIT: It also consumes two charges when you hit multiple mobs. Thus, hitting 4 mobs for 8 crits will consume 2 charges.

EDIT: Recklessness overrides the misstable. With 13% hit I never had a miss during recklessness.

The most effective recklessness-rotation seems to be bloodthirst, slam, whirlwind

(I still have to test whether using whirlwind last results in 2 crits - could be. Will test this.)

EDIT: Very interesting, standing between two dummies (70) in SW, I got these results:

Recklessness (GCD)
Bloodthirst (crit)
Slam (crit)
Whirlwind (4 crits!)

I repeated this three (Edit: 5) times. Whirlwind always scored a quadruple crit. Obviously, you can get a lot out of recklessness. This allows two rotations:

Bloodthirst -> HS -> WW -> (instant) Slam
Bloodthirst -> (instant/crit) Slam -> WW

Khab · 10/02/08, 8:35 AM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

A couple of pages ago, someone asked this:

Whirlwind with 2 weapons consumes 2 charges of recklessness.
EDIT: It also consumes two charges when you hit multiple mobs. Thus, hitting 4 mobs for 8 crits will consume 2 charges.

EDIT: Recklessness overrides the misstable. With 13% hit I never had a miss during recklessness.

The most effective recklessness-rotation seems to be bloodthirst, slam, whirlwind

(I still have to test whether using whirlwind last results in 2 crits - could be. Will test this.)

EDIT: Very interesting, standing between two dummies (70) in SW, I got these results:

Recklessness (GCD)
Bloodthirst (crit)
Slam (crit)
Whirlwind (4 crits!)

I repeated this three (Edit: 5) times. Whirlwind always scored a quadruple crit. Obviously, you can get a lot out of recklessness. This allows two rotations:

Bloodthirst -> HS -> WW -> (instant) Slam
Bloodthirst -> (instant/crit) Slam -> WW

For this Idea we must making sure our HS on next Swing is not comming soon or we're not HS for the duration of Reck.

Bronwyn · 10/02/08, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by Khab

For this Idea we must making sure our HS on next Swing is not comming soon or we're not HS for the duration of Reck.

What do you mean precisely? Recklessness lasts 12 seconds. Reck has a GCD, BT has a GCD. If you activate Recklessness and HS together, there is no way you will not HS in those 3 seconds (considering flurry OR windfury OR passive haste or whatever.)

ZeTodu · 10/02/08, 9:04 AM

Did someone test 17/44/0 build (2H furry) - if yes - can i have some data please.

Gink · 10/02/08, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

What do you mean precisely? Recklessness lasts 12 seconds. Reck has a GCD, BT has a GCD. If you activate Recklessness and HS together, there is no way you will not HS in those 3 seconds (considering flurry OR windfury OR passive haste or whatever.)

I think he's talking about HS eating up a Recklessness charge. At least that's what's been said in one of the earlier discussions about Recklessness in this thread. (http://elitistjerks.com/909901-post2439.html)

Bronwyn · 10/02/08, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Gink

I think he's talking about HS eating up a Recklessness charge. At least that's what's been said in one of the earlier discussions about Recklessness in this thread. (http://elitistjerks.com/909901-post2439.html)

HS does eat a reck-charge, however, with this rotation:

Bloodthirst -> HS -> WW -> (instant) Slam

this is precisely what I want. I get 4 crits and an instant slam, which appears to be the maximum you can get out of recklessness.

Gink · 10/02/08, 9:35 AM

I think if Recklessness stays the way it is (gives 100% crit on white attacks until 3 specials have been made) then Recklessness -> WW -> BT -> auto for 6 seconds -> BT (also leaves you with a instant Slam), is the most DPS you can squeeze out of it. This should utilize the full 12 second duration when counting global cooldowns. 6 seconds of global cooldowns, and 6 seconds of white crits.

Edit: Never mind, missed the part about WW eating two charges.
I don't think Recklessness timing will have any major impact on our DPS over the course of a boss fight anyways, 3 extra crits over 5 minutes is nothing, and the gain will just keep diminishing as gear improves. I guess I'll just pop it whenever I have a free GCD, maybe in execute range.
I see it mostly as a burst tool in PvP.

Bronwyn · 10/02/08, 9:40 AM

Even so - you would want to use WW last because of the fourth crit. In your rotation recklessness is over after WW -> BT. (WW eats 2 charges.)

Indeed, white hits are crits, too. I can't imagine it will stay that way but if it does:

BT - fGCD - fGCD - fGCD - BT - fGCD - WW - Slam might be most efficient. This will give you 4 yellow crits, an instant slam at the end and 10.5 seconds of white crits. (This rotation just netted me 2300 dps.)

Alexplayswow · 10/02/08, 12:10 PM

I think this would be the best mitigation spec: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Machinator · 10/02/08, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

EDIT: Recklessness overrides the misstable. With 13% hit I never had a miss during recklessness.

This part caught my eye, as I thought it would be similar to Cold Blood for rogues because crit is only above hit on the table. If it just makes the whole table crit, does this mean it cant be dodged/parried as well?

Gruntle · 10/02/08, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

Even so - you would want to use WW last because of the fourth crit. In your rotation recklessness is over after WW -> BT. (WW eats 2 charges.)

Indeed, white hits are crits, too. I can't imagine it will stay that way but if it does:

BT - fGCD - fGCD - fGCD - BT - fGCD - WW - Slam might be most efficient. This will give you 4 yellow crits, an instant slam at the end and 10.5 seconds of white crits. (This rotation just netted me 2300 dps.)

Thanks for checking it out Bronwyn, had a suspicion that WW would eat two charges. If it stays with white crits during the buff it will be a fairly solid skill and when used at every cd should up your dps noticeable. I agree that the best way of using it is as you posted above.

nakoda · 10/02/08, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Alexplayswow

I think this would be the best mitigation spec: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

I'd be hesitant to say Commanding presence is worth losing AttT and Conc Blow. Imp Charge for extra 10 rage synergies with Warbringer. Vigilance still seems to me like a great tool for putting an arms/fury warrior in raids. Helps them with their excessive HS threat.

Also, giving up Gag Order is a huge cut to your threat and DPS. Shield Slam dmg is very nice.

levk · 10/02/08, 12:23 PM

I think WW is an instant per weapon, try WWing with one weapon and see how many charges that eats up, my guess is one.

EDIT: Also, with the recklessness never miss thing, do you mean specials or white hits as well? If white hits still miss/dodge/parry/glance during recklessness I don't think it's worth it to hold specials for any period of time just blow reck and continue your normal rotation, it runs out when it runs out.

EDIT2: Could try reporting the WW eating two charges as a bug, who knows maybe they'll change it. Thing is currently on live it's probably better for WW to eat up two charges because sweeping strikes is in fury so you get two extra strikes on WW while dual wielding. Since SS is going back to arms, having WW eat up two charges is only bad.

Shivas · 10/02/08, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Alexplayswow

I think this would be the best mitigation spec: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Due to the uncertainty of how good vigilance is, its fine to skip I guess. But Unbridled Wrath over AttT and no Gag Order? Unless I'm mistaken Unbridled Wrath is ever worse than puncture, which people are talking about dropping. Shield slam is our best attack, I feel you should max it out. First build I've seen with Commanding Presence though.

Alexplayswow · 10/02/08, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Shivas

Due to the uncertainty of how good vigilance is, its fine to skip I guess. But Unbridled Wrath over AttT and no Gag Order? Unless I'm mistaken Unbridled Wrath is ever worse than puncture, which people are talking about dropping. Shield slam is our best attack, I feel you should max it out. First build I've seen with Commanding Presence though.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Fixed.

SS is our best ability. However, I've been tanking in Beta extensively and 5% extra damage is unnecessary in holding threat. Maybe if I was PvP'ing as well but I'm a PvE Prot player.

I think I overlooked AttT cause they made it AP instead of strength but it is more useful than UW so I fixed my spec.

Commanding presence is for my mitigation ideals, I feel the more HP the longer we last

Imp Charge for extra 10 rage synergies with Warbringer.

Eh...if you're charging during combat most likely you're high in rage and the standard charge rage gain is plenty if not overkill when you're in combat.

Again, this is based off of my testing in beta.

Montegomery · 10/02/08, 1:24 PM

I believe this is the post Bronwyn referenced as being a couple of pages back.

I'm having a lot of trouble following Bronwyn's post. If I read it right he's testing WW and finding that it consumes a charge of Recklessness for each strike from Whirlwind. This is different from the previous build. I'll run my own tests later. I'm extremely skeptical of the assertion that Recklessness overrides the hit tables.

If the change to how WW is true, then the proper rotation would be similar to Bronwyn's latest. I would, however, avoid cutting things off too early. There's no reason you can't hold off on WW until the last half-second, gaining another 1 second of crit White DPS. It's not like you're constrained to everything on a precise GCD timeline.

Gink · 10/02/08, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

I believe this is the post Bronwyn referenced as being a couple of pages back.

I just want to give a quick general tip on linking posts. I see a quite a few people linking posts this way, possibly without realizing that not everyone has the same post count per page. For example, I have 25, your link put me to page 107, not even near any posts by Bronwyn. I know some others have 50 posts per page, etc.
When linking a single post you should click the post number in the top right corner of the post and link that, like so; http://elitistjerks.com/919141-post2749.html

Hope I don't get a infraction for back-seat moderating

Sorry, it's just been annoying me when clicking links and ending up no where near the post that was intended to be linked.