WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 111

levk · 10/02/08, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

I believe this is the post Bronwyn referenced as being a couple of pages back.

I'm having a lot of trouble following Bronwyn's post. If I read it right he's testing WW and finding that it consumes a charge of Recklessness for each strike from Whirlwind. This is different from the previous build. I'll run my own tests later. I'm extremely skeptical of the assertion that Recklessness overrides the hit tables.

If the change to how WW is true, then the proper rotation would be similar to Bronwyn's latest. I would, however, avoid cutting things off too early. There's no reason you can't hold off on WW until the last half-second, gaining another 1 second of crit White DPS. It's not like you're constrained to everything on a precise GCD timeline.

I think it consumes a charge per weapon used. So WW can strike one target twice with two weapons and consume 2 charges or it can strike 5 targets (with the glyph) 10 times and still consume two charges. I use a cooldown mod instead of action bars and WW cooldown shows twice when I dual wield, once if I just use a single weapon. I'll check it again when I get home.

Barmbul · 10/02/08, 1:44 PM

So I was reading some of Graull's posts on the Beta forum and some of the things that were being said kind of concerned me. Has there been a paradigm shift at blizzard? Are Hybrids (like rets) supposed to do equal raid damage now compared to damage classes like rogues, warlocks, mages, and warriors? Warriors are considered a damage class like rogues and warlocks correct? It really concerns me if blizzard has decided to do away with the limitations that hybrid classes have had in the past. I mean why would anyone roll a warrior or rogue or raid leader bring pure dps classes to a raid if they could have a ret or druid that does just as much damage but also has all the utility and options.

There will prob always be a place for ranged dps as its more flexible than melee. I have seen them saying "bring players for their skill instead of their buffs" but that premise does not really hold here. If you have 2 equally skilled players who are you going to bring?

Darkrenown · 10/02/08, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by mistersix

Imp disciplines doesn't seem to be all that worth even given all this talk about retaliation tanking the devs were so keen on awhile back.

If Retal/SW/Reck are unlinked now (I seem to remember reading they are, but I don't have my warrior on the beta) then I don't see why you wouldn't use Retal pretty much whenever it's up. Reck should be a nice threat boost at the start of a fight if you're not worried about incoming damage.

Edit for the post above: Yeah, Bliz want the hybrids to do near equal damage to the mane DPS classes.

Bronwyn · 10/02/08, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

I'm having a lot of trouble following Bronwyn's post. If I read it right he's testing WW and finding that it consumes a charge of Recklessness for each strike from Whirlwind. This is different from the previous build. I'll run my own tests later. I'm extremely skeptical of the assertion that Recklessness overrides the hit tables.

Maybe my post was confusing (English is my second language and all.)

- a whirlwind (2 weapons) during recklessness eats up two charges (no matter how many targets you actually hit).

- if, however, the whirlwind attack is your LAST of the three specials that are supposed to crit, BOTH MH and OH will crit (basically, in an AoE environment you could get 8 crits on 4 mobs with only one remaining charge of recklessness)

- during recklessness I never ever got a miss / glancing (I tested about 20 times), every single yellow / white attack was a crit as long as it was up (I have 12.6% hit against a lvl 70 target dummy which should require 20% hit)

- I can't say anything about dodges as I am way over the cap there (2 weap. mastery / shard / T6)

- can't say anything about parries eiter, as I tested from a pve raiding perspective and attacked solely from behind the boss

hellord · 10/02/08, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by Barmbul

So I was reading some of Graull's posts on the Beta forum and some of the things that were being said kind of concerned me. Has there been a paradigm shift at blizzard? Are Hybrids (like rets) supposed to do equal raid damage now compared to damage classes like rogues, warlocks, mages, and warriors? Warriors are considered a damage class like rogues and warlocks correct? It really concerns me if blizzard has decided to do away with the limitations that hybrid classes have had in the past. I mean why would anyone roll a warrior or rogue or raid leader bring pure dps classes to a raid if they could have a ret or druid that does just as much damage but also has all the utility and options.

There will prob always be a place for ranged dps as its more flexible than melee. I have seen them saying "bring players for their skill instead of their buffs" but that premise does not really hold here. If you have 2 equally skilled players who are you going to bring?

Many think that warriors are hybrids too since we have a prot tree. Nobody of them saw that we have 2 trees for dps.
With the new changes there won't be anymore a unique buff your class can provide... this is good sometimes.
But those unique buffs were there to let hybrids get a spot in raid, possibly not stacking.
Well, at the end of this beta we'll see if that work was worth or not. Uniqueness was the *ONLY* reason you brought a class into a raid, now that is gone, there is no reason to get a class with inferior abilities that does same DPS.

Warriors give the least utility to the raid and have no uniqueness, but need a babysitter to stay alive.
There will be hard times for those warriors who will have to deal with min/maxing raid in hardcore guilds.

They probably thought that warriors are one of the biggest "pool" of players that could roll a DK, so i don't expect many changes before there will be a good number of raiding/arena DKs.
I doubt they planned to insert a new class for newcomers...

levk · 10/02/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Barmbul

So I was reading some of Graull's posts on the Beta forum and some of the things that were being said kind of concerned me. Has there been a paradigm shift at blizzard? Are Hybrids (like rets) supposed to do equal raid damage now compared to damage classes like rogues, warlocks, mages, and warriors? Warriors are considered a damage class like rogues and warlocks correct? It really concerns me if blizzard has decided to do away with the limitations that hybrid classes have had in the past. I mean why would anyone roll a warrior or rogue or raid leader bring pure dps classes to a raid if they could have a ret or druid that does just as much damage but also has all the utility and options.

There will prob always be a place for ranged dps as its more flexible than melee. I have seen them saying "bring players for their skill instead of their buffs" but that premise does not really hold here. If you have 2 equally skilled players who are you going to bring?

Well what utility does a feral bring over a fury warrior? Rampage = LotP (don't stack) for main buff purposes. Blessing of might and battleshout don't stack either and give the same amount. Ret buffs/debuffs are substituted by rogues and moonkins. All the niche buffs hybrids bring on live now can be substitued by somebody else next patch.

EDIT: Hellord, if anything it's better for warriors who brought just above minimal utility until 3.0. Currently the min/max raid will take a subpar hybrid like ret because of the buffs they provide. Those buffs are the sole reason they're there. He could be a crappy player with crappy gear, but as long as he kept the judgments up, the raid is better off than with a damage class in his place. Now that uniqueness is going away and he has to actually compete for his spot. Ofcourse his damage must go up or he will not be able to compete.

Grymm · 10/02/08, 2:06 PM

The hybrid vs. pure dps class debate rages in 2 different max length threads in the beta general forums at any time. It is a horrible argument from both sides involving a lot of good players with legit concerns and bad players who just like to post garbage. Blizzard has waffled on the subject depending on the hour of the day. Ultimately, it looks like hybrids at peak output will be between 90/95% of a "pure" dps class and 100%. Blizzard likes to ignore most of the argument and just say "it's ok. you'll choose players based on skill." They do not seem to care that skilled players must choose a class to play. This means a lot of things for warriors.

1. Warriors have always been considered a hybrid tank/dps class. Now that more tanking abilities are baseline, this is even more so. A dps warrior always carries the possibility of becoming an offtank for certain encounters. Personally, I tanked as fury in 25 man raids fairly often - specifically on trash if we were low on tanks.
2. Warriors are not full hybrids like druids/paladins in that we cannot do all 3 raid roles. Priests and shaman can heal or dps. They are not able to tank. So, how does this place the warrior for the balancing of hybrids. Do 2 role hybrids do 95% of pure class dps while 3 roles do 90%? Do all hybrids do 95%? Do all hybrids do 100%? Personally, I don't think all hybrids will turn out equal. It may well be at the end of the day that dps warriors, shadow priests and say enh shaman do the least damage which is not entirely a "fair" balance.
3. What does this mean for pvp? How does a warrior beat an equally geared ret paladin if the ret paladin does equivalent dps? The warrior generally takes more damage and has less survivability. How does anyone kill an elemental shaman or balance druid whose dps tree also allows them some measure of healing output. Balance druids are quite powerful in PVP.
4. What does the tank balance look like? Prot warriors when not tanking are supposed to do less dps than arms/fury warriors. Prot paladins do garbage DPS. Feral druids, when not tanking, have full dps potential. Death knights when not tanking can do some decent damage (though their talents are powerful enough that having tanking talents does cost you dps talents). So, wouldn't it only be fair for feral druids to do dps like prot warriors? I don't think they'd like being an 80% dpser.

My guild will 50% likely not have a raiding warrior in WotLK. I was the only DPS warrior and I'll be moving to a DK. Of our 2 prot warriors, one might go DK and the other might go druid or paladin. We've basically looked at what we have and have decided that each and every thing we got from a warrior we can get from elsewhere. Ideally, we'll keep 1 prot warrior for sunder/commanding as it's probably the best class to keep those buffs up. That warrior will be locked into MTing so that the 2 ferals we have will be DPS on single tank bosses. Right now, even if the dps of warriors balances with other classes, it seems old in both pve dps and pvp.

Fellwraith · 10/02/08, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by Grymm

The hybrid vs. pure dps class debate rages in 2 different max length threads in the beta general forums at any time. It is a horrible argument from both sides involving a lot of good players with legit concerns and bad players who just like to post garbage. Blizzard has waffled on the subject depending on the hour of the day. Ultimately, it looks like hybrids at peak output will be between 90/95% of a "pure" dps class and 100%. Blizzard likes to ignore most of the argument and just say "it's ok. you'll choose players based on skill." They do not seem to care that skilled players must choose a class to play. This means a lot of things for warriors.

1. Warriors have always been considered a hybrid tank/dps class. Now that more tanking abilities are baseline, this is even more so. A dps warrior always carries the possibility of becoming an offtank for certain encounters. Personally, I tanked as fury in 25 man raids fairly often - specifically on trash if we were low on tanks.
2. Warriors are not full hybrids like druids/paladins in that we cannot do all 3 raid roles. Priests and shaman can heal or dps. They are not able to tank. So, how does this place the warrior for the balancing of hybrids. Do 2 role hybrids do 95% of pure class dps while 3 roles do 90%? Do all hybrids do 95%? Do all hybrids do 100%? Personally, I don't think all hybrids will turn out equal. It may well be at the end of the day that dps warriors, shadow priests and say enh shaman do the least damage which is not entirely a "fair" balance.
3. What does this mean for pvp? How does a warrior beat an equally geared ret paladin if the ret paladin does equivalent dps? The warrior generally takes more damage and has less survivability. How does anyone kill an elemental shaman or balance druid whose dps tree also allows them some measure of healing output. Balance druids are quite powerful in PVP.
4. What does the tank balance look like? Prot warriors when not tanking are supposed to do less dps than arms/fury warriors. Prot paladins do garbage DPS. Feral druids, when not tanking, have full dps potential. Death knights when not tanking can do some decent damage (though their talents are powerful enough that having tanking talents does cost you dps talents). So, wouldn't it only be fair for feral druids to do dps like prot warriors? I don't think they'd like being an 80% dpser.

My guild will 50% likely not have a raiding warrior in WotLK. I was the only DPS warrior and I'll be moving to a DK. Of our 2 prot warriors, one might go DK and the other might go druid or paladin. We've basically looked at what we have and have decided that each and every thing we got from a warrior we can get from elsewhere. Ideally, we'll keep 1 prot warrior for sunder/commanding as it's probably the best class to keep those buffs up. That warrior will be locked into MTing so that the 2 ferals we have will be DPS on single tank bosses. Right now, even if the dps of warriors balances with other classes, it seems old in both pve dps and pvp.

Last time I looked at it, ferals still had to spec into tank or cat dps talents, they couldn't get both. Unless that's changed, they won't be doing "rogue" dps without those talent points. They'll probably be the equivalent of a fury warrior (which is still far better than a prot warrior). There's a thread on the warrior beta forums that gets into this a little bit (paladins bitching about having less survivability than warriors, I'm not sure why they aren't screaming about ferals, I guess it's because we both wear shields).

I would think having "hybrids" do more dps and equal a rogue or mage's dps if that required more "skill", i.e. more complex rotation requiring some player reaction, tightly-timed combos, etc. I think abilities like bloodsurge are a good move in this direction. Combat rogues got some of this with the combat potency ability and they'll have it next expansion with mutilate builds. When we talk about taking the more skilled player, maybe some classes just need to reward skill more by doing equal dps/tanking/healing but require more attention. In return for that complexity, they can do more of the raid's various jobs.

mistersix · 10/02/08, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Alexplayswow

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Fixed.

SS is our best ability. However, I've been tanking in Beta extensively and 5% extra damage is unnecessary in holding threat. Maybe if I was PvP'ing as well but I'm a PvE Prot player.

I think I overlooked AttT cause they made it AP instead of strength but it is more useful than UW so I fixed my spec.

Commanding presence is for my mitigation ideals, I feel the more HP the longer we last

Eh...if you're charging during combat most likely you're high in rage and the standard charge rage gain is plenty if not overkill when you're in combat.

Again, this is based off of my testing in beta.

Gag order helps you avoid taking caster damage. That's gotta be valuable from your max tank perspective no? If you're dying to get commanding presence then points spent in imp demo shout is more conducive then UW.

Alexplayswow · 10/02/08, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by mistersix

Gag order helps you avoid taking caster damage. That's gotta be valuable from your max tank perspective no? If you're dying to get commanding presence then points spent in imp demo shout is more conducive then UW.

As a MT I wouldn't need Demoshout, as a dps warrior or warlock can do the deed.

The silencing effect doesn't work on bosses and is more of a PvP enticement. So again, the extra 5% damage doesn't warrant not getting 25% more HP from CP.

Grymm · 10/02/08, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by Fellwraith

Last time I looked at it, ferals still had to spec into tank or cat dps talents, they couldn't get both. Unless that's changed, they won't be doing "rogue" dps without those talent points. They'll probably be the equivalent of a fury warrior (which is still far better than a prot warrior). There's a thread on the warrior beta forums that gets into this a little bit (paladins bitching about having less survivability than warriors, I'm not sure why they aren't screaming about ferals, I guess it's because we both wear shields).

I would think having "hybrids" do more dps and equal a rogue or mage's dps if that required more "skill", i.e. more complex rotation requiring some player reaction, tightly-timed combos, etc. I think abilities like bloodsurge are a good move in this direction. Combat rogues got some of this with the combat potency ability and they'll have it next expansion with mutilate builds. When we talk about taking the more skilled player, maybe some classes just need to reward skill more by doing equal dps/tanking/healing but require more attention. In return for that complexity, they can do more of the raid's various jobs.

I don't precisely know what the highest dps feral build is, but this is my guess:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It gives up utility tanking talents but nothing that could not be covered for from another class. Some of the skipped abilties do not apply to raid bosses (brutal impact). You could take 2 pts out of feral instinct and put it into feral swiftness for maximum boss tanking. Nothing from the balance tree increases feral damage and nothing deeper than T3 in the resto tree does either.

My general solution to the hybrid debate is to make hybrids not hybrids any more. Improve the trees for the hybrids and bring them up to 100% dps but have key abilities in that tree remove other capabilities. A full balance druid might have -50% on healing spells - same with ret paladins. For raiding, this makes little difference. It is rare that you ask an offspec to heal as they simply do not have the longevity. Rather than have hybrids do other things with a level of mediocrity, they should just be "pure" specs. A dps spec does dps. I would put more talents into the feral tree and have enough talent points in there that you cannot grab all the main tanking and dpsing talents.

Nyel · 10/02/08, 3:33 PM

Did anyone think about using Rend for tanking multiple mobs since it does way more damage now?

Basically, it would be a good idea to test its threat over time to see if it could replace something in the rotation for AoE threat. Something that could be used by off specced tanks to generate good AoE aggro without Shockwave.

Ovidus · 10/02/08, 3:49 PM

Isn't thunderclap supposed to fill that AoE threat spot?

Barmbul · 10/02/08, 4:01 PM

I really don't see how they are going to do this without making a dps spec for a hybrid really effect the other options. For example a Ret should not be able to heal anymore than a fury warrior if he is DPS spec. I kind of see what they are doing with raids and hybrids. After they changed the rigid raid buff design it really was the only thing they could do to garuntee hybrid raid spots. However I see this making PVP painful for warriors (even more so that it is currently) or any class that can't self heal or CC. If blizzards goal was to reduce the warrior player base I think they have succeeded.

I really fear how this may affect WOW. This is a slap in the face to all those pure dps classes that made the decision to give up raid utility to be the top dps. Being a warrior has been an exercise in masochism ever since we got the nerf bat way back in vanilla wow but there were always things we could point at and call our own. Good fury warriors could top the dps meters. Good tanks could tank bosses that would make hybrid tanks shit themselves and now every class that can own me one on one in the BG’s can do exactly what I can do in raids plus more.

Nethris · 10/02/08, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Nyel

Did anyone think about using Rend for tanking multiple mobs since it does way more damage now?

Basically, it would be a good idea to test its threat over time to see if it could replace something in the rotation for AoE threat. Something that could be used by off specced tanks to generate good AoE aggro without Shockwave.

Thunderclap's and swipe's target caps were removed so warriors and feral druids could generate very good AoE threat. TC affecting unlimited targets will be much better than rend, and tabbing through and sundering targets for the initial bonus from sunder applications seems likely to be a better use of your other GCDs. Shockwave is not going to be a prot tank's main AoE aggro, it's a bonus to AoE aggro that also stuns everything, on a cooldown far too long to be a significant portion of an AoE tanking method. Shockwave should be nice on things like the caster packs before Solarian in TK to stop them casting AoE back at the raid.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Barmbul

I really don't see how they are going to do this without making a dps spec for a hybrid really effect the other options. For example a Ret should not be able to heal anymore than a fury warrior if he is DPS spec. I kind of see what they are doing with raids and hybrids. After they changed the rigid raid buff design it really was the only thing they could do to garuntee hybrid raid spots. However I see this making PVP painful for warriors (even more so that it is currently) or any class that can't self heal or CC. If blizzards goal was to reduce the warrior player base I think they have succeeded.

I really fear how this may affect WOW. This is a slap in the face to all those pure dps classes that made the decision to give up raid utility to be the top dps. Being a warrior has been an exercise in masochism ever since we got the nerf bat way back in vanilla wow but there were always things we could point at and call our own. Good fury warriors could top the dps meters. Good tanks could tank bosses that would make hybrid tanks shit themselves and now every class that can own me one on one in the BG’s can do exactly what I can do in raids plus more.

There are other parts to the PvP picture that will make non-hybrid classes desired - none of the DPS hybrids have a MS debuff for instance, while rogues, hunters, and warriors do. If a PvP warrior goes arms/prot, imp spell reflect will be an interesting mechanic to use. Prot warriors still have better physical damage mitigation than pallies, at least slightly, and especially DKs. Shieldwall, last stand, and shield block are probably the best set of "oh shit" tanking abilities of the 4 tank classes. And Blizz has hinted that feral tanking mitigation is probably a bit high right now. So I don't think it's going to be quite as clear cut as you say as to pure dps classes and warriors being less useful than hyprids.

Now, do I think they'll get the balance right with this change in design before the release of WotLK? No, but some of the new warrior mechanics (Bladestorm, enraged regen) give them some room to give us better PvP survivability and utility at the very least.

mistersix · 10/02/08, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Alexplayswow

As a MT I wouldn't need Demoshout, as a dps warrior or warlock can do the deed.

The silencing effect doesn't work on bosses and is more of a PvP enticement. So again, the extra 5% damage doesn't warrant not getting 25% more HP from CP.

I really don't think we can safely assume old build habits just yet in the new world. I know plenty of dps warrs that would rather spend their points elsewhere than imp demo. They may get that chance now. Further, if you're in a 10man raid you may not be able to count on either a dps warr or a lock being present per se.

Cranium · 10/02/08, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by mistersix

I really don't think we can safely assume old build habits just yet in the new world. I know plenty of dps warrs that would rather spend their points elsewhere than imp demo. They may get that chance now. Further, if you're in a 10man raid you may not be able to count on either a dps warr or a lock being present per se.

Yeah, I don't know what fury warrior would rather get imp demo over AttT. And AttT doesn't give but 2 points free for imp demo...

levk · 10/02/08, 4:43 PM

CoR and FF don't stack anymore meaning CoR will never be used. You'll need 1/5 imp demo to reduce boss AP to 0. So it's just one extra point if you're taking at least 5 in first tier fury between AttT and cruelty from a prot build perspective.

Charsi · 10/02/08, 5:01 PM

Isn't CoR double the armor reduction to Faerie Fire? Won't it still be worthwhile if you can compensate for the added AP?

levk · 10/02/08, 5:07 PM

Erm... For some reason I thought they made those have the same armor reduction. That's dumb though why didn't they make them the same.

Dots · 10/02/08, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by levk

CoR and FF don't stack anymore meaning CoR will never be used. You'll need 1/5 imp demo to reduce boss AP to 0. So it's just one extra point if you're taking at least 5 in first tier fury between AttT and cruelty from a prot build perspective.

Were there actually any tests done for level 80 content? For example on Maexxna, if Beast Lore still works on bosses.

CoR and FF actually reduce armor by the same amount, but CoR still adds a little bit of AP. The highest rank adds the same amount of AP as the previous though, so maybe it's just not done yet.

Megalith · 10/02/08, 5:34 PM

I'm wondering a bit now how the new aoe tanking system for the different classes works in beta and on ptr. TC hitting unlimited targets, same with feral swipe and of course old pally consecration. Is this completely trivializing any tabing around for sunders, shield slams ect? Paladin had the afk aggro before but was weaker on single target threat, which in my opinion was a good balance. But now every class has about as high single target and the aoe tanking ability.

Is the aoe tanking now only limited by the number of mobs the healer/healers is able to keep the tank up against? Anyone who has tanked some 5-man runs in beta or raids who knows?

• Morsexy · 10/02/08, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by Barmbul

I really don't see how they are going to do this without making a dps spec for a hybrid really effect the other options. For example a Ret should not be able to heal anymore than a fury warrior if he is DPS spec. I kind of see what they are doing with raids and hybrids. After they changed the rigid raid buff design it really was the only thing they could do to garuntee hybrid raid spots. However I see this making PVP painful for warriors (even more so that it is currently) or any class that can't self heal or CC. If blizzards goal was to reduce the warrior player base I think they have succeeded.

I really fear how this may affect WOW. This is a slap in the face to all those pure dps classes that made the decision to give up raid utility to be the top dps. Being a warrior has been an exercise in masochism ever since we got the nerf bat way back in vanilla wow but there were always things we could point at and call our own. Good fury warriors could top the dps meters. Good tanks could tank bosses that would make hybrid tanks shit themselves and now every class that can own me one on one in the BG’s can do exactly what I can do in raids plus more.

It's been a huge concern of mine for a long time, and I've alluded to it in the past here about how they balance classes. Warriors continually lose what makes us unique, but we do not gain any of the abilities of the classes that gain what was once our unique buffs\debuffs.

A Ranged Stun.
An on demand stun (not only in our tank tree please).
Real Mitigation in PVP, Cloak\Iceblock\DS\DK Anti Magic Spell are all far better than what we have access to, arguably the class that takes the most damage in PVP.

Balance is always better. I equally nerd rage over getting Cycloned\Sheeped with Shield Reflect active as I do when I "you lose" another player with Windfury or Mace Stuns by pressing only my Mortal Strike key.

Just the fact that we need to wear nearly max resil to break even on damage in Berseker stance has always baffled me. Not to mention that in PvE its just stupid on any intense healing fight with raid AoE. We have been trying to speed clear Sunwell, so everyone is paying attention, using consumables and on twins this week, the two warriors in the melee dps group ( we both want items, and so that means commanding is up) died and we were the only class to die. This is not "our healers were asleep", this is once health stone, and healing pot are down, you go into battle or defensive ( I died in Battle, the fury warrior died in Defensive ) we still ***Need Immediate Healing*** unlike other classes which have a ~5 second window to get love, on top of taking far less damage.

Honestly, were I putting a raid together, given threat dumps, far more survivability of the 4 melee classes, I could care less what a warrior's DPS was I wouldn't bring one. Currently this isn't possible because of Battleshout and how stupid Blood Frenzy can be. The key word here is currently.

So if we bring nothing unique, and we are at the LEAST 10% more likely to die from aoe damage (I'd say its higher than that, more in the neighborhood of 10-15% given we have no real out ) and have zero stamina advantages, that means we have to do 15% more damage to truly be viable. That is being generous assuming that we die late in the fight. Not to mention our "out" means our DPS goes right in the toilet.

We clearly are not going to be doing more DPS than a rogue, nor should we, and if Ret's and DK's are comparable DPS, then we simply need to remove +% damage modifiers, and we need something better than enraged regeneration. That really seems like a leveling\solo grinding ability, not something useful in stressful situations. This really seems like a non issue, I am just confused why this hasn't been fixed.

For me I don't even care about the DPS. It is totally irrelevant. We're just in bad shape for PvE DPS survivability. I guess I'm thrilled Recklessness will be up every fight, but now I'm guaranteed to have 10 seconds of Glass Cannon 138.6% damage taken every fight.

PSGarak · 10/02/08, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by levk

CoR and FF don't stack anymore meaning CoR will never be used. You'll need 1/5 imp demo to reduce boss AP to 0. So it's just one extra point if you're taking at least 5 in first tier fury between AttT and cruelty from a prot build perspective.

I would expect FF to match CoR by release. However, even if you are stuck with CoR, the AP increase can be talented away with 7 points in affliction. Note that, unlike TBC, you're quite likely to find people spending points in affliction.

Nethris · 10/02/08, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by Morsexy

A Ranged Stun.
An on demand stun (not only in our tank tree please).
Real Mitigation in PVP, Cloak\Iceblock\DS\DK Anti Magic Spell are all far better than what we have access to, arguably the class that takes the most damage in PVP.

Ironically, prot now both gives a stun and a ranged silence (Heroic Throw + Gag Order).

As to mitigatation - and controlled burst - in PvP, at least now can use shieldwall and recklessness in arenas... and while I'm not certain it's a great move, Blizz seems to be trying to make Battle stance the standard Arms PvP stance, which would solve some of the damage taken issues - now if they just made the "charge while in combat" that's on Warbringer the 11 point talent in Arms, or added it to improved charge, it might get interesting :P

The warrior disadvantages in PvP, especially the extra damage taken in zerker stance, seem like outdated leftovers from the vanilla wow days of the best warr PvP gear being raid gear that was at least half intended for tanking, which left warriors with a bunch more HP than anyone else... since that's no longer even remotely true, it's definitely past time they revisit it =/

Edit:

Originally Posted by PSGarak

I would expect FF to match CoR by release. However, even if you are stuck with CoR, the AP increase can be talented away with 7 points in affliction. Note that, unlike TBC, you're quite likely to find people spending points in affliction.

Their trend towards matching debuffs would suggest that FF will match CoR - however, that's a bit of a delicate balance, making a warlock curse that prevents them from using other curses equal in power to a debuff that any druid can keep up without much disadvantage would more or less make CoR useless, even improved... in smaller settings than a 25 man, the warlock would probably want to be using CoE anyway. Not sure what the solution is though.