Questions about your build:

Gag order, mostly a PvP utility, I'd skip it.

Focused Rage - You get so much rage in beta tanking that this kind of talent is useless.

Concussion blow I find myself never using and it's better in PvP or Solo'ing.

Vigilance we've had many talks about this, consensus = a talent point better spent elsewhere.

I'd spec in spell reflect and Imp Disciplines as starting out with Shield wall and using it again before the pull is done is priceless. Also, don't forget you get to use REtaliation/Reck/SW twice during each fight. It's priceless my friend. Way more than the others I listed.

And definitely no to blood rage. Just completely unnecessary. I can hold aggro without any rage to start a fight.

Think the big issue here is people not used to the concept of being able to both range-pull and charge into combat.

Still looking forward to doing it.

Gag Order is an excellent talent. Even if you think the silence is not good for PvP and you don't care about heroics, it still gives you 10% more SS damage. That talent is 3 things in one for just 2 talent points. Great talent.

Concussion Blow is also great. It's more threat than Devastate and doesn't trigger the GCD. Let alone the fact that it's a stun on top of these.

Focused Rage: I would never go without it. It's 3 rage less on basically all our skills. I can understand not taking Puncture since it's just tied to one talent, but Focused Rage is pretty much a must and worth it for all 3 points.

Vigilance is meh, I agree. I'll probably spec it anyway since it's situationally useful for 1 talent point.

Imp SR is not a good idea until it's fixed. Otherwise, yeah, it's good.

That's impressive. Apparently the RNG likes you more than all the other Warriors in the world. :P But to each it's own I guess. I'll be there charging mobs for the initial rage because starting a fight without rage is just too risky for me.

I was alluding to the fact that heroic throw + charge = no need for imp bloodrage as those two and regular BR suffice.

Again, when you spec you have to ask yourself, am I talenting the most important talents first and then going back to fill in secondary talents?

IMO the one's I listed are secondary, and with secondary you shouldn't have many points with which to spend if you specced right in the first place.

I'm also curious about this. I did a search on this thread and found a few people asking, but I couldn't find any definitive answers. Some of the options tossed around were:

Exec/Mongoose
Exec/Savagery
Dual Mongoose

My initial reaction is that Exec would still be the best mainhand (assuming its still a flat -840 armor and hasn't been changed to ArPen ratings). Mongoose @ 1ppm with 15s uptime gives an average of 30 agi, .5% haste, but I don't know if ppm take into account things like miss chance. Even so, I would still lean towards 70 AP > 30agi/.5% haste, but I'm not certain.

But that's the point. Conc Blow, Gag Order and Focused Rage are definitely not secondary talents (and for the record, I don't like Imp BR either as I said earlier in the thread). All points in Fury and in Arms past Deflection are secondary talents because they "only" increase your threat. Wowhead has all mitigation talents and all the smart threat talents (Focused Rage, One-Hand spec, Vigliance - it doesn't have Imp Revenge but that's just me, I just hate the talent), Wrathbringer and still enough points left to invest into any combination of Cruelty, AttT, Imp Revenge, Imp Disarm, Imp Charge, Impale, Puncture, Imp HS or what have you. We can discuss the worth of each of these talents but Focused Rage, Conc Blow, Gag Order are no brainers. They beat every other threat talent out there. Conc Blow is burst threat on demand, Cruelty and AttT are not. Gag order's 10% SS damage should be obvious threatwise compared to other talents and that leaves Focused Rage. So yeah, if we assume a completely theoretical environment where you always have enough rage to do everything on CD then Cruelty and AttT beat Focused Rage. But since that will never happen, Focused Rage wins.

Did you even read my post? You don't take the points away from those talents, there are enough talent points free

It has been changed.

This was unfortunately changed in the latest build, it now triggers the GCD.

Aww, crud. I really liked the idea of starting off with a CB/SS+HS combo on bosses where you have the rage to (think Maggy when he breaks loose) and always considered the snap aggro potential that combo had to be intentional. Maybe they will reconsider this but even if not, it's still going to be better threat than 5-sundered Devastate IIRC.

That's a shame, considering that I hear ArPen Rating is fairly lackluster at the moment.

If Executioner has lost its shine, I would assume that Dual Savagery and Mongoose/Savagery would also be possible options? The question still remains though. A TG warrior has 3 possible enchants to apply, in what I can see as 6 different likely MH/OH combinations. Which combination would net the best results?

Exec/Mongoose
Exec/Savagery
Mongoose/Exec
Mongoose/Mongoose
Mongoose/Savagery
Savagery/Savagery

Heroic Throw - Spell - World of Warcraft

It's instant. I remember it having a 0.5 sec cast time before but I guess that got changed when they nerfed the cooldown from 20 seconds to 60 seconds.

Moongoose loses a lot of its value because of the agility<->crit conversion, also, we will have relatively high critratings due to the change in base value and rampage (I'm sitting at 50% in a raid environment).

Executioner lost a lot of its attractiveness, too.

Seems like dual Savagery to me. Almost 200 AP with imp. BS and UR is nothing to frown upon. Especially considering the upcoming 10% more damage with BT change.

Does anyone know if there are hit enchants at 80?

What was Executioner changed to exactly? And do you have a link?
Both Wowhead and mmo-champion shows Executioner as the old 840 ArP.
Wowhead and mmo-champion.
This is the last post I found in theis thread on executioner. http://elitistjerks.com/911179-post2481.html

Currently on PTR it still gives 840 armor ignored, can't say that for beta since I don't have it.

Back on SD subject:
now it gives 3/7/10 rage with 1/2/3 talents.
I practised a bit with SD in normal rotation and indeed can make up a good part of your damage if used wisely.
That means you should still care about the swingtimer or you should use it before a Rend/shout refresh, OP or mocking blow (if mobs are untauntable) if you are >2.5seconds from a new swing.
With 2/2 Unrelenting Assault OP cooldown is 50% less so you should be under 2 seconds from a white swing to have rage for the next GCD.

Enchant Weapon - Greater Savagery - Spell - World of Warcraft
Enchant Weapon - Accuracy - Spell - World of Warcraft
Enchant Weapon - Berserking - Spell - World of Warcraft
Enchant Weapon - Massacre - Spell - World of Warcraft

There are new enchants, of course.

I just wish we could get an answer on why they can't fix it for fury, rolled into imp berserker stance, especially if arms warriors now stay in battle stance. This is assuming they're concerned about the PVP impact. I mean what is the point of arms anyways, given rogues providing the same benefit. Fury should be the highest potential DPS build, now that the synergistic elements of arms are gone or can be replaced by a class that will be in every raid.

Do people really think that there will be two DPS warriors in ever raid? Given that which made you bring an arms warrior, or even warriors in general, can all be provided now by other classes, doesn't that defacto award the warrior DPS raid spot if there is one to fury(the highest PVE just pure damage output spec, or should be)? I mean no one in their right mind is PVP'ing as fury, or am I nuts?

Check the mats. Greater Savagery seems to be alot cheaper than Massacre so it could make sense that Massacre can be used on any weapon.

Just looking at the materials, I would assume Greater Savagery is a mid range enchant, and Massacre is the end game final version now adjusted for all weapons.

Does the proc for Berserking retro actively apply to AttT? It seems slightly silly that it would only benefit us to the tune of 400 - (((Total Armor -(Total Armor * (Proc amount of Diminished Armor))) \ 180) * 3 ), ending up being 300 net or whatever it ends up being.

Edit: For Clarification, I'm assuming that the proc is a %, otherwise how is that fair to low armor classes.

Thus the point of the entire debate about leather itemization. Round and round we go.

Blizzard wants both trees to be equally valuable in raiding so they will most likely do the same or nearly the same DPS when everything is done and tuned. Fury gets to provide Rampage which Feral Druids offer and Arms gets to provide BF which Rogues offer so the DPS should be equal.

Another point I thought about: The DPS-Warrior/Rogue paradox (to sum it up quickly: Rogues and DPS Warriors will do the same DPS but Rogues take less damage and less maintainance while doing so, which makes them the better DPSers) will most likely not be resolved since GC said it will not be 100% possible to prevent guilds such as Nihilum to stack the best classes for each fight. In the end, both classes will be good enough to bring along while Rogues will keep their slight-to-significant survivability edge. Obviously, I would want the damage taken penalty to go away completely or that Warriors will be compensated for taking more damage by doing more damage but I can live with that if I have to. Not every guild can afford to swap out Warriors on Felmyst for Rogues even if Warriors would do the same DPS there.

Gag order, focused rage and imp revenge are all great talents, you shouldn't pass over any of them. I don't think there's any debate about that.

All imp revenge really does is increase the baseline damage of it (by ~291 before other multipliers). The scaling increases from ~21% of AP to ~25% with the talent. That's not a very big increase in the scalar for it, but the baseline damage is really high and the rage cost is really low.

Shieldslam scales better than revenge if you do the math. There's more base crit on shieldslam and several different multipliers that all stack (metagem, glyph of blocking, T7/T6 bonus, shieldmastery, critical block's crit bonus, etc.) It doesn't take a lot of block value to make gag order a pretty big increase to threat and damage output.


I also see a lot of people taking toughness in their builds, I really don't see the point. All of the early content is tuned as if you're wearing T4 or worse gear, nothing is going to require a high amount of armor and you can remove snares with warbringer. I take almost no damage against mobs that are up to 3 levels higher than me unless it's a magical attack (which is another argument for gag order and conc blow - you can lock out everything from a mob with the silence or stun). If you have the choice between the extra armor or dodge, block, or parry, you should take the latter. At least the added avoidance will keep imp defensive stance's enrage up even with you stunning the mob you're fighting. We really don't need toughness until we're raiding and doing heroics.

Imp bloodrage is a waste, I'd never spec it. Best case scenario, it's 10 extra rage per minute. I get way more than that from blocking with shieldspec. I would need under a 17% chance to block for it to be less rage from a 1 minute fight against a 2.0 swing speed mob. It's also a very useful talent for multi-mob tanking situations. Hit shieldblock to juice up your damage shield at the outset of a pull and you take no damage and generate 2 rage every time the mobs don't miss.

I really honestly don't understand this, but I guess it is in alignment with the balance raid comp issues they face, which then got balanced around 10 mans.

While I understand that, the edge is even more significant for the guilds who can't afford to just add a high caliber rogue in my opinion. A decently geared rogue alt that does 85-90% of the damage of the warrior is more attractive since those healers who may not be as skilled have one less target to really worry about. I mean, I know that seems melodramatic, but its like ( here comes the awful congress like metaphor ) having three sports cars. One is a new Ferrari, one an old Ferrari, and one a new affordable Muscle car. Sure they all do the same thing, but who doesn't want the other two Ferraris?

The reason I compare it like this, is Blizzard says they want it to be about skill, and frankly the skill the classes demonstrate means very little in the decision. In the old days the affordable car gave you other things the Ferrari might not (Battle Shout, Frenzy), those days are gone. Not only are the differences that made the Muscle car attractive totally gone, the Ferarri still retains every single attribute that made it attractive in the first place. /Old Man like Metaphor off

Our class has ALWAYS been the dizzying heights and then lows to balance it. People always focused on the heights ( as a lot of this game is about min\max) and we were the best tank(by design in Vanilla and through half of tBC), the best DPS (When insanely well geared, not by design in Vanilla ) and that is obviously broken. Those dizzying heights are slowly but surely being removed\balanced\applied to all classes that needed whatever Warriors uniquely did. Then we get some company line about "warriors need the counterbalance". And the OLD COUNTERBALANCE is still there. We don't get new skills and new counterbalance. We get new skills and keep old out dated counterbalance. Why aren't the counterbalances being 'balanced' along with everything else in the game.