cpkfolief

Speaking of snap aggro, I was thinking of a pull combo something like this:

1. Throw + Bloodrage
2. Heroic Throw
3. Charge
4. Threat rotation...

For fights that are more threat sensitive and less demanding of avoidance or heals I don't see why Retaliation can't be thrown in to make a make a combo like this:

1. Retaliation + (dance) + Throw + Bloodrage
2. Heroic Throw
3. Charge
4. Threat rotation...

The only question I have is -- does Heroic Throw cause the Throw GCD?

 

Dots

I'm pretty sure Massacre is supposed to be 2h only. There is already a 65AP for 1h enchant.
Something else that I just notice and wanted to add: oddly enough the GCD triggered by Concussion Blow is only 1 second, not the usually 1.5 seconds. Could be just an error after all.

 

Liar

Why not? Arms was doing less DPS than Fury because Arms offered a raid buff to compensate. With that gone, why shouldn't both specs do equal DPS? They might as well rename Arms into "2 hand DPS tree" and Fury into "Dual Wield 2 hand DPS Tree" because that's all it boils down to: playstyle, not DPS potential.


Oh, I definitely get where you are coming from and I agree. In an ideal world, Warriors would do the same DPS as Rogues and have the same outs with CloS and Vanish but this is just not going to happen. Our stigma is that we are great tanks, for better or worse. Can you imagine what giving Vanish, CloS or Evasion to the MT is going to do for balance? It would screw up the balance for sure. You could try to make those things talented but it's going to be tough. Arms was the best TPS spec with Relentless Assault (maybe it is now again with Revenge being buffed so much?) because our tanking baseline is good enough that there is not much difference between Prot and an offspec tank in Wrath. Now if they were to provide a tree with, say, Evasion, it might shift the MT spec away from Prot to whatever spec can Evasion or CloS.

So what's left? Have Warriors do more damage to compensate for taking more damage? Unlikely but possible. Rage is pretty much a non-issue on Felmyst because we take so much damage. I am not sure if this alone would make a good Fury Warrior surpass a Rogue there since Fury Warriors already swim in rage (AoE not included obviously). To make that happen, they would have to balance Warrior DPS by assuming that they will rarely be at 100 rage so that if they do, they wreak havoc. They buffed Heroic Strike so maybe that was their plan but I just don't see it happen. A Warrior not balanced on having enough rage would be overkill in the situations where he swims in rage. Cue possible PvP implications and yeah, it's unlikely to happen. (And subjectively the fact that it's just not fun to not have enough rage to hit my abilities just because else I would do too much DPS. Sup, Feral Druids and proper Bear itemization? <_<)

Things I would like to see and that have a real chance of happening:

Berserker stance will lose it's damage taken penalty when they rework the stances. They said they might do this after Wrath went live so I am not counting it out yet. Otherwise, bring back the old Imp Berserker stance that reduces damage taken by 10% in the stance but I'd say this is quite a clunky mechanic.
Death Wish and Recklessness need to lose their damage penalties as well since they do not break fear anymore though we can argue about Recklessness - but most definitely not DW. I am not sure who brought it up in the thread before but the fact that Hunters get a similar effect with Beast Within and NOT take extra damage is quite... hyprocritical by Blizzard I'd say.

EDIT:

Because it still doesn't proc from avoided or blocked hits so it's terrible threat for a tank (correct me if they changed this, it's been a while I logged into Beta due to lag problems). Might be able to go with Recklessness instead though.

And in case it was not clear (I couldn't tell from your post): Heroic Throw does not cost rage which is just fantastic.

Unexpected TankPoints error Oh, really?

 

Fellwraith

Right, but why do you need it for a leveling build? There's really no reason for it, half the time all that extra armor gets offset by the block value or avoidance you have. It's not like it provides a big benefit to AttT. I guess I'm not understanding people's logic here. I'd much rather go for "dps" or avoidance talents over mitigation talents in a leveling build, especially if I'm wearing T6 or better gear.

 

cpkfolief

I haven't played on the Beta so I don't know if Heroic Throw causes the Throw GCD. Any clarification on this?

The reason this is important is stance changing, Throw, and Bloodrage don't affect the GCD. If HT and Throw are separate, that's three moves that can be chained together for snap aggro in any situation. However, HT and Throw do share a 1.5 CD, boss pulls can still be done with the same rotation.

Since the range on the throw moves are 30 yards and the range on Charge is eight yards, the boss would have to travel 22 yards (plus any ground gained in strategic repositioning during the GCDs) from his starting position to the warrior's initial throw position to cause this combo to not work.

 

Liar

Because the spec I am linking and/or refering to is for endgame tanking. I think that's what most people had it mind as well because all linked talent builds are either for level 70 and 80 which, for me, means logically a raiding build in 3.0 or one in Wrath endgame respectively. That said, I haven't really made up my mind on how to spec while leveling since I am not sure if I will even do it as 1h/Shield Protection. I might start off with DW Devastate until rating decay screw me over and I end up with some threat- (thus, DPS-) heavy spec at the cost of mitigation. Cruelty, AttT, heck maybe even Imp Disarm for added DPS - you name it.

So yeah, I think you are mostly misunderstanding people's linked talent builds here. Atleast for me that is the case.

Unexpected TankPoints error Oh, really?

 

cpkfolief

From a leveling perspective there's no reason you can't just go whatever end-game spec you would in the Protection tree, and drop points from Deflection and Cruelty and just add them back in on the approach to 80.

This is what the level 70 version of my end-game spec would look like following these guidelines:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

All of the talents are useful in both 5-mans and solo grinding. It doesn't get Imp. Disarm, which would be extremely nice for solo grinding, but I think this is negligible.

Going on the way to 80, I'd fill out Cruelty to get that knocked out early on, then add in Deflection as avoidance becomes more useful in higher-level instances. For the last two points I heavily favor Booming Voice, since I personally love the idea of 50% effect/range for only two points.

 

Morsexy

That was me, I got warned\lambasted for comparing abilities between two different classes, even though this circular logic is applied everywhere except when removing these counterbalances. I'm pretty much the guy making this my personal crusade. "Please stop hitting him he's already dead!"

Stances, On use Deathwish like abilities, etc all have been dealt with except with ours.

138.6% damage taken needs to go. Period.

 

• Astrylian

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dr_AllCOM3

Or go here http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29347-w..._simulator/p3/
That would save you lots of discussions

 

mistersix

Just to be clear booming voice effects the duration and range not the effect. Not sure if you meant that in your post but I have seen other people make that mistake.

 

tmagalhaes

Looks like the latest beta patch gives Taunt a 20 yard range.

Any of you guys ever felt the need for this?
I actually enjoy the mechanic of interveening/intercepting to close the distance to a a mob that got loose to be able to taunt it.
Now all I have to do is select the mob and taunt.
Don't know, feels less involved...

 

Zaroua

Making tanking a bit less of a headache is a good thing, especially since they obviously want Prot (and tanking in general) to be more accessible to the masses.

Dogma also claims that God has a sense of humor and at times presents Him as a joker of sorts, thus again lowering Him to human level. While I am certain God has a "sense of humor" since He gave it to us, I find it most difficult to believe He finds humor in sin since He will cast the unforgiven sinner into the lake of fire for eternity. Not very funny at all.

 

Nethris

Even without the TC change and only tanking 4-5 mobs in AoE situations in Hyjal, I always was annoyed when I had to drag the mobs on me out of the AoE zone to go save one of the casters (and yes, at the time we were doing it without a prot pally, silly us :P). So I can see it being useful for AoE tanking for when one of your shadowpriests or hunters figures it's a great idea to light up one of the mobs being AoEd without looking for one that's being targeted by a tank...

Also can be used with the Gag Order buffed heroic throw to grab a caster mob that's going after someone else without running up to it, which can be nice to avoid the chance of aggroing an extra group in a 5 man instance.

And considering intervene will lower the threat of the person that somehow pulled by 10%, it may still be a good idea to use it, and then taunt as we're intervening. Or the reverse order to give you more threat on the mob if you don't mind having to target the person who pulled without the target of target mechanic to intervene or macros (I'd imagine you COULD set up a macro that set your focus target to your target's target, then taunted, with another macro to intervene your focus - but that prevents other use of the focus target mechanic).

 

Lasie

There have been a lot of times when I've intervened a healer only to watch the mob turn around and stomp someone on the other side of the room, which is never fun. The short range of taunt makes it irritating if you have to run around with both intervene and intercept on cooldown.

Intervene is still a great idea as A) it puts you close to the healer to pick up any other mobs that may be going for them, and B) if the taunt resists you'll still be right by the healer to pick up the mob. So I do not think the new system diminishes the coolness of intervene in any way.

 

KooZ

Adding warbringer into that equation we're really mobile. The increased range on taunt only improves that mobility, I don't see issues there.

It might have been a thing discussed in the past, but while tanking MH on the beta I noticed 2 things;

1 - A macro for intervene is no longer needed, you can use intervene while targetting a mob and it will automatically intervene it's target. One button less to care about

2 - Threat ceiling is insane, seeing 2.5K DPS locks on 60% of threat really leaves a lot of room DPS/threat wise (I was wearing 5/8 T6) although they seemed to have fixed some hitbox issues on tauren, I couldn't outrange the stun on boss #3 there

 

• Ren

Really? I just logged on beta to check, and Executioner procs still give zero armor penetration rating and the tooltip still states -840 armor. Executioner/Savagery is the way to go still.

 

Sabethaya

They made this change many months ago in the live game.

 

tmagalhaes

After thinking a bit more about the ranged taunt, I'm inclined to believe it might be a needed mechanic for some encounters in the future since they gave it to all tanks accross the board.
Because, looking at the current game, the change doesn't seem "justified enough".
They greatly improved tanking mobility with warbring and now they reduce the need for having that improved mobility.
Yeah, I've been in situations where dragging the tanked pack around caused someone to eat a pbaoe or a cleave, the ranged taunt does make it more convenient, but it has the potential to lower the skill ceiling.
I have to log on the PTR and see how it feels.
Would be cute if booming voice increased the range of taunt by another yard for point then. ;)

 

Zegai

Ranged Taunt is useful on fights like Al'ar.

A concern of mine is: I don't think our glyphs are good, especially the ones currently implemented on beta. The ones I liked most were the +targets thunderclap glyph - and the glyph of blocking. The first one obviously isn't needed anymore, and I don't think the second one is implemented yet (or even will be?).

 

theclarkofben

Hi

This is the prot build I have chosen to begin levelling with when WOTLK hits. I am interested to hear your opinions on it so please take a look if you can.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Thanks

 

gia

This brings me to think that maybe if threat is no longer a big concern then maybe there could be room to start discussing optimal cycles/talents for DPS instead of TPS. Or is it the same thing now? How many abilities are left which have a hidden threat bonus? or have they all been converted to bonus damage?

I mean on raid bosses which have a DPS check (patchwerk, brutallus, etc) the tank's contribution is much more significant in WotLK and perhaps some thought could be given on how to improve it.

Any thoughts? I was thinking it may be possible that there could be even some arms/fury/hybrid specs that out DPS prot. And I don't mean in DPS gear, but in actual def gear while tanking. What if there is some spec that mitigates maybe 10% less but does significantly more DPS, I'm sure there would be situations where it would be preferred.

 

Bregonn

What I'm interested in is how the glyph of Devastate and the glyph of Sunder Armor interact. I tested and on the PTR the glyph of Sunder Armor is applied to the 2nd mob even if you use Devastate to apply the Sunder debuff. If you have the glyph of Devastate as well, is the debuff applied to the 2nd mob twice? And more importantly, do you gain aggro on the 2nd mob? What if you use Sunder Armor instead of Devastate?

Given that Devastate does not gain the Sunder threat anymore even for the first 5 applications, my guess is that it in every case it will just apply the debuff and not any threat. It would be overpowered if it did anyway. But it's worth testing.

 

Solifer

@ranged taunt:

I don t think it s that good. The duration of taunt is pretty short and if you don t put up some aggro in between, the mob will just run away again. Hopefully heroic throw is good enough here, if not there will be some trouble with "AE tanking and pull back a mob" - especially when taunt is on CD afterwards... Imho the best situation i can think of using ranged taunt is a breaking CC, e.g. while malacrass is channeling his AE and the healer is busy healing the raid.