Gruntle

I get fairly different results. I'm cleaning up my sheet right now, will post it later today if anyone wants to have a look. I had made a silly error on ArP (adding instead of subtracting the FF armor reduce) which made the value of ArP become inflated. Still it should be noted that ArP gains about 20% in value vs a high armor boss (7700 vs 6200 for TBC content).

My dps increase values (calculated from 10 step increase in all ratings/abilities) are:
Hit/Expertise: 1.27 (but note that, as far as I know, Expertise is still rounded down, causing every value that is not a multiple of 4 to become worse).
Haste: 0.93
Str: 0.9
ArP: 0.88 (vs a 7700 boss, 20% worse vs a 6200 one).
Crit: 0.78
AP: 0.42

The main difference here is that I get haste to be worth a lot more and crit to be worth less. The value of haste is a bit surprising, and I'm not 100% sure it can be trusted. The reason it gets a higher value is that haste actually benefits rage generation the most of all stats, thus making it possible to do one more HS with 10 extra haste than with 10 extra str. The extra damage from that HS turns out to be worth more than the value of str/crit for yellow damage. I'm worried that I might have modeled haste and rage generation a bit wrong though. I am using the original weapon speed for the hit factor in rage generation so haste does not affect that, but it does affect how often you swing and thus how often you get the rage (rage per sec).

In a real raiding situation where you might not utilize HS to the extent it's used in the sheet (the model is that no HS are lost at all), haste will not give this effect and lose a fair bit (about 25% in value). Over many boss fights I still think the number of used HS should be higher for a haste heavy builds than for others. It is a bit hard to model HS use in spreadsheets.

edit: Here is a link to my spreadsheet, read the remarks in the first sheet before using. The sheet is a modded version of one of drAllcom3's old sheets. NB, only works for TG at lvl 70 for now, no beta items added and no ratings for lvl 80 implemented. If things bug out, disable circular refs. Includes (among other things) modeling of Heroic strikes, Bloodsurge slams and Recklessness. Executioner is modeled as -840*uptime armor (applied together with debuffs). Using two-roll system for specials.

 

Khab

Our result will be alittle different because of Different of gears.

I have Expertise Cap, so Expertise mean 0 DPS to me. Only extra hit give me extra DPS

The main different that amazed me was Haste on your sheet get better number than Str, and Crit value is extremly low.

I need to ask some question in your calculation :

Do you take extra Crit give extra Flurry Uptime ?
Do you take extra Crit% on BT give extra Flurry Uptime ? Since BT Crit will give 1 more extra Special Attack(slam), and that help Flurry Uptime and 1 extra Yellow Attack = alot of Dmg increase since we already swim in Rage
Do you take extra Haste will slightly decrease Flurry uptime ?

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

Gruntle

Yes, flurry uptime is calculated using circular references (i.e., flurry uptime is calculated iteratively). Estimated flurry uptime with my gear (45% crit fully buffed) is ~90%. Crit will gain a lot at lvl 80 with Deep wounds and Impale though, all of the tests were in a 53/8 lvl 70 build and vs TBC bosses (7700 armor).

Extra slams from BT are included in the flurry uptime model. Haste decrease flurry uptime slightly in my model due to a lower instant-to-white ratio. It is a very small effect though.

 

Khab

Then do you have Imp WF on your test?
My Flurry Uptime with 42% Crit raid buff is around 90% . If you don't use ImpWF on your test, we have about the same Flurry uptime even when you have 3% more crit.
When i have imp WF my Flurry uptime get some where 78%

At 75~85% crit have big contribution to Flurry uptime, but after Flurry uptime get pass 90%, Crit hardly increase Flurry uptime. I guess your 45% Crit raid buff is too high already and make crit almost pointless to take.
I wonder if this is the issue for the big different Crit DPS gain value from 2 of our sheet. I'll re-check mine again for crit DPS gain but i'm pretty sure Crit can't be worst than Str or Haste when we get near hit cap ( i'm 10% from the hit cap)

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

DavidS

Apologies if this has already been discussed but I've looked and am having trouble finding out whether the 10% damage buff from Improved Defensive Stance and the 10% damage buff from Enrage are meant not to stack?

 

Rott

I believe you are mistaken. The defensive stance buff is actually a 10% damage penalty. The improved defensive buff evens that out when it's up.

 

• Morsexy

Isn't it .90 * 1.10 * 1.10 = 1.09 % dmg in defensive stance? ( since no one is skipping 1h buff ), but more apropos it doesn't actually even it out .

 

Gruntle

The 90% figure was with Imp WF and the 3% extra haste (but no haste gear at all). Are you losing 12% flurry uptime from 20% haste? That sounds like too much for me. Maybe we should take this to personal messages instead though, he modeling details are not really what this thread is about.

The only thing that I can think off that would decrease flurry uptimes is the effect of two-roll system on the specials crit chance. The flurry uptime model still uses one value of crit, I might get around to changing that tomorrow, I still don't think that will make a big difference though.

Still, I don't see why crit would suddenly gain a lot in value with this patch. It has always been at roughly 95% of the value of str for me and this patch makes it, if anything, slightly worse (gain more bloodsurge procs, but lose Impale and deep wounds).

 

Cranbery

I might have missed if someone posted this already, sorry; it's a lot of posts to keep track of. Does anyone know what they'll be speccing for the month of raiding before xpac that we have the new talents out? I don't know if I'll be speccing TG with the hit I have; I'm wondering what would be the optimal spec for those 4 weeks before xpac hits shelves. Any ideas?

 

Grymm

Well, I guess it depends on how much of beta's build is in the next patch. Apparently, the latest version of deep wounds is doing 20%+ of total dps for arms warriors. If you check the beta warrior forums, a warrior clocked well over 5k on Patchwerk using arms. Maybe that version of deep wounds won't go live and maybe he was subject to some of the stacking weapon buff bugs that have been happening lately. WOW Meter Online - More logs!!!!!!

 

Uglesh

From a Prot perspective I'm very torn on all these changes that keep getting reported. The latest being the info on the ridiculous threat generation being put out now. While in some ways I enjoy having pressure taken off of my role, I'm suddenly looking around and I have to wonder "what is going to make a GOOD tank"?

With the removal of heavy spike damage (crushing blows) and the heavy nerf to avoidance, this basically puts us in the position of being a sponge that just soaks up small but consistent damage. Now include the silly threat and AOE ability of all tanks and I'm really wondering if there will be any way for someone to "excel" at tanking. Really all that will make a difference is stats/gear.... suddenly the human element is gone.

Anyone see something I don't??

 

nakoda

When it comes right down to it, just having gear and a pulse isn't what makes a tank good. the criteria won't change. Active awareness of the encounter, ability to multi task well, understanding the basics of every class and how they interact with you and others all determine what makes a good tank. These changes simply make our lives better, not necessarily easier.

 

Grymm

It could also be that your good MT-types are going to be the people who can tank Anub Rekhan and get the kiting down or can pick up Noth quickly after the port. Tanking situational awareness and skill can still be vital even if TPS is not very taxing.

 

Kayoto

Also, keep in mind that the 'better' tanks will be the ones who can maximize their DPS while minimizing their damage intake.

Since tanks now contribute an actual significant amount of damage, the ones who adhere to proper rotations and priorities will outdamage the ones who faceroll their tanking buttons by quite a fair bit.

 

Grubsnik

I got the impression he is refererring to taking both 20 points in fury for enrage, and putting 31+ points in prot for improved def. stance.

The enrage from improved def. stance actually appears to be 11%, so you end up doing ~110% damage with 1h spec and imp. def stance. Could you also get an enrage proc while you were at it, for another +10% damage?

I haven't tested this, but once my warrior finishes copying over to the ptr, i'll give it a spin and report what i find out.

 

Solifer

As you mention it, will Warriors really be able to AE-tank? Something like Hyjal waves while Warlocks and Mages casting AE?

 

Naggaroth

Different topic question: Does anyone know why melee haste doesn't effect the GCD or melee cooldown abilities like it does for casters?

Thanks

 

BioXoxide

That’s a very good question.

Something that always bothered me was the fact that warriors had a GCD of 1.5 secs when rogues have a GCD of 1 second. Both classes only method of dealing damage is melee damage.

I can only imagine the clutch moves warriors with fast reaction times could do if we had our GCD down to 1 second (both in tanking and dps).

It would help flesh out those that are on top of their game bleed over the others.

 

Liar

It's probably because melee is getting a free benefit from haste with white attacks. If I remember correctly, haste was a bad stat for casters until they made it affect the GCD because it only increased their DPS at the cost of more mana (and only then if most of your damage came from abilities with an actual cast time) used while Rogues and Warriors already double dip into the benefit of haste (rage generation and Combat Potency for Rogues). Then again, it would obviously work if Warriors had 1 sec GCDs but this seems to be more of a design decision than a gameplay reason.

That said, having a 1 sec GCDs does not mean you will do more damage than a class that is stuck with a 1.5 sec one. It's more complex than this. Case in point: Guess which other class has a 1 sec GCD? And we all know how their DPS ended up at the end of TBC.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Eisentefel

I got an idea for how to fine-tune arms warrior dps a little bit, and I was wondering if people thought it was a reasonable thing to try and get the devs attention with. It's pretty simple, gives arms a small dps boost and makes it a bit less about debuff-watching. The way I understand it, the arms dps cycle right now is rend, ms, overpower when it's up form TfB, then spam slam. My simple change is to Trauma. Change it to:

"Your melee critical strikes increase the effectiveness of bleeds on your target by 15/30% and have a 50/100% chance to refresh the duration of your Rend on the target."

So yeah, this change, in my opinion would give arms a small boost in dps to put it up with fury, as well as doing some of that "selfless buffing" that the devs have been doing. So, any thoughts?

 

JTLJudoMan

Arms dps atm is pretty high. Check the beta forums for Denaku doing over 5.3k dps in Naax as arms in Battle Stance.

The Deep Wounds damage is huge at the moment arguably too good for a talent so shallow in the tree.


[edit] I would love to see some fury screenshots of high end dps... Please post them if you have them with a recount overview of damage split [/edit]

 

Eisentefel

Sorry, I don't have any screenshots. I was basing my opinion solely on the fact that all people seem to be talking about recently here is Titan's Grip. I guess I just assumed that it was better. As for arms DPS being really high, I haven't looked into it, but I suspect that, if Deep Wounds is doing that much damage, it either a bug or going to get nerfed. Again, I don't have anything to base that on, it's just my feeling.

 

PSGarak

Rogues were given a 1.0s GCD in order to make their gameplay feel more twitchy and spastic. The blue post that said that is long-buried, but I'm almost certain "spastic" was the word that was used.

I don't really see how a shorter GCD is really going to relate to any meaningful measure of skill. Being able to hit your spammable button faster is not a measure of skill, and I don't see any particular "combos" that can be done, unless you want to add abilities to the GCD that aren't there already just so you can feel better about being able to hit them as fast as you're expected to be able to hit them.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

JTLJudoMan

I tend to agree. Hopefully they'll take the buff fury option instead of nerf arms. It looks like the synergy between rend overpower procs and execute procs is taking it pretty high on the ole dps charts. Not quite as high as hunters though... They'll probably be nerfed.

[edit] on a side note the new bloodthirst seems worthless to me. It rarely keeps me even on any mobs. I suppose I don't have 23k health like some of the dps warriors I see at lvl 80 but the only reason I'm using the talent as a fury build atm is to get slam procs... Due to the increased miss chance though those are fairly rare. It seemed much more useful at the previous amount but I'm probably just too far on the low end to get the real benefits from it.
[/edit]

 

Khab

And Rogue limited by the Energy Regeneration, even if they have 1.0s GCD, they can't spam every GCD they got.

Image a Arm or Prot Warrior swimming in Rage and Spam every GCD he got with 1.0s GCD, it's not going to happen.

I don't know about you guys, but spamming the button as the CD of my ability about to up works for me. I must admit i play with Latency vary from 200 to 300. Which mean every GCD last 1.5 is now 1.7~1.8s for me. Spamming the button sometime help me reduce my GCD to 1.5 or 1.6. When i feel lazy and just hit the button as GCD or CD is up, my TPS or DPS will be around 90% of normal. And normal here mean i must hit those button fast and crazy.

It's like GCD about to be up Rev and SS on CD. OK I'll mash this Devastate key hard and fast
SS is about to be up, OK i'll mash this SS Key hard
Oh well, it's Revenge time, let's mash it
Awww SS and Rev on CD again, happy Devastate mashing time

For my case of high Latency Player, mashing the button faster mean better playing. I alway wish i can have US/EU Ping which vary from 50~100. At least now i get used to mine Ping and going well with it.

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)