dr_AllCOM3

Does someone know how Deep Wounds work exactly? I need it for my simulator. After all the bugs, nerfs and buffs I don't know anymore .

 

Barmbul

At level 70 when you take it instead of deep wounds. Today after seeing the impressive dps numbers from arms/deep wounds I decided to test an incite/TG build against a blood surge/deep wounds build. I did the tests on lvl 70 test dummies with no debuffs. Tested through 2 recklessness CD on each attempt. TG toon's gear was gemed for hit. Here are some pics of gear and recount.
The bracers for TG are the SSC hit bracers everything else should be obvious.

Deepwounds/bloodsurge dps 1432
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...608_192056.jpg

TG/incite dps 1294 attempt one / 1308 attempt 2
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...608_193817.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...608_194531.jpg

Armory profile

 

JTLJudoMan

Yeah I just ran arms with the execute/ rend build and the default gear and managed to pull around 1200 dps.

With TG and deep wounds I pulled around 1450-1500 dps. Deep wounds made up a significant portion of my dps in both cases.

The slam procs seemed fairly rare... the 24% special miss kinda sucks in that regard as you have to hit before you can crit. I found that the rage was very streaky.

 

Kysimir

I've been reading this board, and others, and the conclusion on the Titan's grip question seems to be split. I've been looking at four DPS specs. The question I'm asking, pertains (mostly) to the last two:

PVP-esk Arms

This spec is meant to be able to off tank / pvp well, and yield decent DPS. (+10 rage per HS crit inscription if I go with this spec)

All the Arms junk > < or = All the fury junk?

Titan's Grip: Fury

Titans Grip: Deep wounds & 2h specialization

All the Arms junk > < or = All the fury junk?

Fury: 1h Axe/sword/mace Spec

This spec is the first one in which I need a little help with the theory crafting. My question is, how well do you think it would stack against Titan's Grip? I'm thinking, that the ease of gearing this spec, Vs. the complexity of offsetting the counterbalance for TG, could make this viable. I guess it comes down to:

+5% crit, +5 % crit damage // +12% ArP // + 6% chance to get an extra attack*> or < or = +10% slam, WW, Bloodthirst damage + Titan's Grip +15% miss rate on yellow attacks?

*Would sword spec allow for 6% chance MH and OH? Or a base 6%? I'm sure this has been answered before, but I can't recall the answer 100%. I think it's both, just want clarification .

Fury/Prot: 1 hand spec

This is the second unorthodox one. Meant to be a "druid in plate" type of spec. However, ignoring the tank viability, how well would you rank this spec's DPS?

+10% Melee damage (white & yellow) + 10% armor (+3 AP per 180) + 15% crit on cleave/HS (+10 rage per HS crit inscription if I go with this spec) + (-)60 Sec on Recklessness > < or = +10% damage on Bloodthirst, slam + 20% whirlwind damage + Titan's Grip + Deep Wounds - 15% miss rate on yellow attacks?


I'm mosty asking about pure DPS potential (the utility aspects are subjective), if all four specs had the same tier (but diff stat priorities obviously) gear, which spec would yield the most, least, by how much (if you had to guess). If anyone's already had these questions roughly answered, and I missed it, could someone point me to it?

[Edit: Grammar, bold/italics/side question]

 

Prinsesa

As I understand it, the changes to Deep Wounds between Live and 3.0 are as follows:

In Live, Deep Wounds deals 60% of your weapon's average damage over 12 seconds. In 3.0, DW deals 48% of your weapon's damage over 6 seconds

In Live, DW ticks 4 times, once every 3 seconds, dealing 15% of your weapon's damage every tick. In 3.0, DW ticks 6 times, once every second, dealing 8% of your weapon's damage every tick.

In Live, you can lose DW damage if you crit twice during the 12 second period (which happens quite a lot). You can lose even more damage if you just came from an effect that increased your weapon's damage (like a trinket buff) then crit right after it, since the size of your ticks will reset to the lower weapon damage.

In 3.0, DW can *remember* your remaining tick damage whenever you refresh it, such that it 'rolls'.

As an example, say we have a weapon with 100 average damage. When I crit, the Deep Wounds debuff gets applied, with 6 ticks of 8 damage each. After 3 seconds (and 3 ticks), I crit again. The Deep Wounds debuff gets refreshed. According to the Live model, I should lose the last 3 ticks from the first crit, but in 3.0's new model, I will instead get 3 ticks of 16 damage each, plus another 3 ticks of 8 damage.

The first 3 ticks of the refreshed debuff deal 16 damage because the game still owes me 3 ticks of 8 damage from the first crit, plus 3 ticks of 8 damage from the second crit.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Khab

If you mean about DPS on Testing dummy without any buffs to compare which spec more viable in DPS .

Rend/OP/Slam/MS (no Sudden Death) : 1800ish DPS

Rend/OP/SLam/MS/Sudden Death Execute : 1700ish DPS (without Mods, it's very hard to have good situational decision when to save rage and when to execute to burn rage)

Titan Grip : 2200 DPS

Standard 1H Fury 16/45/0 or 15/46/0 : 2000 DPS, my guess here is : if you have 2/2 Warglaive, the 2set bonus can make up the 200dps different and you dont have to re-gem your gears .


I do those Dummy DPS test base on my same off spec gear which is 8/8T6 and some BT non-set loots. I have 1 bad Trinket, my Neck is bad and my Cloak is bad too. The true Fury/Arm Warrior will do alot higher dmg than me.

Keep in mind that those test on Dummy is without raid buff. You'll see 1H Fury and Titan Grip spec scale better with Raid buffs than Arm specs. Because a large partial of Arm DPS come from Deep Wound which doesn't scale with Armor Debuff on bosses, and it doesn't scale with WF Totem Haste buff either. And slam dmg doesn't scale very well with Haste buff from Drum, BL, WF Totem.

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

mistersix

I'm usually prot spec but I've managed to accumulate a fairly decent dps set between badges (the fist weapons, melee dps ring, season 3 pvp (vengeful helm, chest, legs), crafted items (red belt and cloak of darkness), discarded bt and mh dps items (grips of silent justice, bloodstained pauldrons) and even some weapons from za (jin and trollbane). The question I'd like to put forward to you guys is which weapon combo would be ideal for an occasional TG dalliance. My options are:

[Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse]
[Trollbane]
[The Blade of Harbingers]
[Merciless Gladiator's Greatsword]
[Merciless Gladiator's Decapitator]

I'm assuming BoH would be best for an arms spec but if I'm wrong please correct me.

 

Khab

I've done my sheet for TG and Prot, but i can't really doing a good calculating on Arm(because i'm bad at making use of Sudden Death Procs. The Buffs Rows is Upper Right Connern of my Screen, The Debuff Row + Rage Bar are Upper Left Connern and The Action Bar is Lower Right Connern. The Ultimately Sux of Blizz Default UI really preventing me from getting the right number for Arm spec. )

But as far as i know about the Arm Tree :

It scale better and better with Slower Weapon which make [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse] is pretty nice if you have high AP (i can't sure about the number, might be around 3k or 3.5k). But i haven't finish my Sheet for Arm, so i can't really tell how good or how bad the new Imp Sword Spec is .
[The Blade of Harbingers] Is a good choice for Arm , it's 3.5 Speed but 55crit and 5% extra Crit from 2H Axe spec is Great since majority of Arm dmg come from Deep Wound.

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

Kysimir

Thanks.

My next question would be: Unending Fury > < or = Weapon Specialization?


Misterix, I'd go BoH and J:TGA. Best combination of crit, AP, and haste. Personally, I'd take the massive crit/AP/haste here over the "ideal" sync of weapon speeds and the 18-36 hit rating. Otherwise I'd go with J:TGA / MGG for a crit/haste/AP loss for a hit / flurry sync gain.

For your Arms question, refer to the above poster. Head on, imo.

 

Nethris

That sounds a lot like the current version of mage ignite, except that to my knowledge the remaining ignite damage is averaged over the new ticks rather than applied to the first few as it would have originally been applied - if deep wounds behaves this way, in the mentioned situation you'd have 6 ticks of 12 damage after the second crit. Anyone care to try to test this?

 

Saburo

I think we need to be more clear on terminology when we talk about deep wounds, as there is a very big difference between your own deep wounds stacking, and actually rolling ( ala 5 fire mages on classic thaddius). From my seat it looks as though deep wounds is stacking and not in fact rolling or else we would have seen some truly crazy numbers by now.

 

mistersix

Early on (maybe alpha) the devs used the term rolling to describe deep wounds. If we're not seeing that behaviors now then I suspect it's long since been addressed.

 

Tankietka

I tried to analyze this log from arms warrior and for first ~10-15s Deep Wounds seems to be rolling (or stacking :-)) with "not used damage" from previous DW averaged over all 6 ticks of next one.
Later in the fight it becomes less stable, probably because of some buffs/debuffs from other classes (I've only accounted for warrior abilities).

For now I believe DW are behaving as follows:

Let's assume first DW ticks for 100, and ticks twice before next crit happens. Second DW would also tick for 100, but we have 4*100=400 not used damage from previous one, so new DW tick would be (6*100+4*100)/6=1000/6=167.
After 3 ticks of second DW, we have another crit. This DW will tick for (6*100+3*167)/6=1101/6=183.

Maybe someone could check it in better testing environment on beta or ptr?

 

Khab

Tested and confirmed about this.

My Deepwound tick varies from 178 to 500ish depend on how lucky i am on Crit.

Averagely, each time i crit, Deep Wound should do 952 dmg

I doing the test for awhile, and get 68 Crit it should be about 64800

Total dmg from Deepwound : 66000 dmg

I guess those 1200 exrta dmg come from the time Deepwound get some little benifit from procs like Bloodfrezy which give 2% more physical dmg


Edit: typo

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

Gruntle

I hope they keep this mechanic for Deep wounds, it makes sense and is easy to model. If it does too much damage (which it seemingly does, 20% of the total damage for arms is way over the top for a tier 3 talent), lets hope they just decrease the base damage.

Khab, I've made some calculations on Sword spec, for a 2 sec weapon speed the loss in value of the spec when going from no internal cd to a 6 sec cd is less than 1% for sustained dps (e.g. if you get 10 procs over a certain time period you will get 9.9 with the internal cd). For burst dps it is of course a much bigger loss. I think Axe and Sword spec will be fairly comparable in the end, but haven't really done the proper modeling.

 

Khab

I don't truely understand your this question. Do you mean about lv80 spec and getting Weapon Specialization with 1H fury build ?

If that is the case my answer is : i can't be sure.

I still keep the 1H Fury Spec one


There's alot of ppl hitting the mob, but there's no debuff really benifit my DPS and i have no group.

If the DPS contribution from each ability stay about the same for lv80 we can see :

Slam doing 7.7%
WW doing 11.4%
BT 17%

All of those together is : 36.1%
5 point in UF give 10% more dmg for WW,BT,Slam ==> it's 3.61% DPS for 5point. Around 0.72% DPS for each talent point

Weapon specialization might give the same number or slightly better, but the trouble gonna be: you need to have MH and OH weapon at same type.
In case of 2/2 Warglaive, i think 5/5 Sword spec will be better than UF, because your WW dmg will be lower (due to fast OH).

If things changed at lv80, and Slam+WW+BT doing alot more DPS contribution which mean 10% from UF giving more DPS, result might be different and UF> Weapon Spec in this case .

It's too bad that i lose the screenshot for TG spec, but i still keep the sheet of the test. Definitely TG spec is doing more DPS than 1H standard Fury if you don't have Warglaive. I have just re-copy my charracter with everything set for Arm spec testing only. My Arm spec DPS is bad because my Arm gear having 170hit on it(i was mainly testing TG spec) .It's hard to keeping track of buff/debuff, rage bar,CDs with the aweful Blizz UI and there's no Swingtimer mod working for me.

@Gruntle : Tomorrow and the day follow i need to tank for SWP and BT clearing. After that i'll spend my free time to working on a sheet for Arm, and we can share our results.

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

ZeTodu

What about trinkets and TGr. - i will use Madness and DST - think with sword (i am human) and T6 belt, DST will give me better results over Shard of Contempt!

 

hellord

GCD<1.5
The global cooldown won't affect much Fury dps, while it will surely increase Arms dps and pvp playstyle for all specs).
Actually on PTR i am nearly able to use every gcd and the only special out of the 1.5 gcd is Overpower with 2/2 unrelenting assaults.

Lowering it arbitrairily to 1.0 second would be probably op, since it will affect about 50% of arms dps (gcd of Slam, MS, Rend, Shouts, Execute) by 50%, meaning something like 25% increased damage.

Making GCD affected by haste would be fair cause Slam does effectively less damage the more haste you have, making it scale inversely. In this case we gain some advantages from haste gear with arms spec rather than just have more rage and do less Slam damage.

Fury won't need that much a gcd reduction cause BT and WW have a quite long cd, prot instead would benefit from haste much more.
In a raid environment you should be able to get around (1.2*1.passiveHaste*100)% that would lower the gcd to 1.2-1.3 seconds. It's not OP and will make WF totem good as it is on live for 2handers (about a 20% increse in damage).

I really hope they consider making haste reducing GCD for all classes and not only mana users. Those classes who already have a 1 second GCD will just still benefit from the autoattack bonus.
Also this could affect weapon swap cooldown (and would be great for PvP).

Unfortunately i doubt this will be something they plan to do soon. Some people asked for a 1 second reduction of GCD while in battle stance, that could make sense, but i'm not sure will ever happen.
Let's hope.

ArP Whore

 

Uglesh

If we were able to do it before, the changes will make it FAR easier. Just the improvement to Tclap alone will make a huge difference. Not that we are the only classes who can do this... heck it will be more like doing Hyjal where all your tanks have AoE tanking of a pally.

Call me a pessimist, but i doubt highly that encounters are going to require max tank DPS. While I agree that there will be a difference in the DAMAGE a better tank can do, but if threat isn't an issue for even poor tanks, our dps is just a "perk".

While I agree that awareness is huge, the fact still remains that half of my old job (mitigating damage) has been virtually ripped from my hands. Assuming equal gear and marginal intelligence, your johnny "dps-only" warrior will be tank by simply facerolling the keyboard and still take virtually equivalent incoming damage. While I know it might make it easier to find tanks for instances, it KILLS the defensive aspect of tanking. With current mechanics I wouldn't be surprised to see "mash offensive buttons for 30 seconds.... Big Baddie starts uber move... pop sheild block... repeat".

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but i enjoy the defensive aspect of tanking. If I wanted to dps I would hop on an alt. Truthfully I really feel for the healers... out of anyone in the "trinity" of Tank-DPS-Heal, they now have all the responsibility. No more "tank took 2 crushing blows" or "Stupid warlock pulled aggro" wipes... Now they will all be "heals couldn't keep up with AoE dmg" or "Healer ran OOM".

 

Borodin

I am being optimistic - sure the core of tanking will be a lot easier but the metagame of maximising TPS or just plain using abilities creatively is still there and therefore the ability to stand out as a great tank.

Note that those DPS Warriors won't have 5% Block, 10% Armour, 5% Dodge, Shield Mastery, Critical Block, Improved Defensive Stance or Improved Spell Reflect so there's quite a big difference in incoming damage.

Dual Specs are being confirmed at Blizzcon this week anyway, so let's hope those DPS Warriors have the decency to have a Prot spec and not just a Fury TG and Arms 2H Specs!

 

Branar

Half of mitigating damage was hitting shield block? Come on. The mitigation difference between spamming shield block and ignoring it entirely on a lot of encounters in T6+ isn't even that significant, since many fewer bosses crush. Even then, johnny "dps-only" warrior just had to faceroll Shield Block along with his other keys to get the benefit.

Shield Wall has gone from a 30min+ cooldown to something you can use multiple times every fight. Shield Block has gone from something you mindlessly spam to an ability that will actually reward tactical use on many encounters. Last Stand remains unchanged, and if you like having it more often you can even reduce its effectiveness for a shorter cooldown thanks to a glyph.

It looks to me like there are MORE survival options that will allow good warriors to distinguish themselves from bad ones, not fewer. Facerolling Shield Block is now likely to be inferior to using it intelligently on some fights. Why is that bad?

 

Zegai

There are several good uses for old trinkets as well.

For example, shield blocking+block trinketing through Stomp/Corrosion is a very decent way of reducing incoming damage. If you are sporting ~800 BV, with one trinket+shield block active that goes up to ~1900, 3800 on critical blocks.
And you also have shield wall+last stand in case they are necessary.

I'm pretty sad, however, that Moroes' (and similar trinkets) will be a lot less useful with the diminishing returns.

EDIT: Oops, fixed a typo.

 

Barmbul

Khab could you post your stats for the picture above? I'm missing all the SW gear except for the gloves but otherwise my gear is decent. I have yet to be able to get close to your numbers without the target being sundered or accidentally WW to dummies. Why is your recount showing crushing? I would be very interested to get more details on your gear and tests since I have seen many recounts with similar numbers to mine but only yours with dps that high.

Armory profile

 

Khab

My gear is mostly 8/8T6, SSO Rep Neck, Shard Trinket from HMGT, Solarian Trinket which give +110 consistent AP, Cloak of Darkness, Stormrage Signet ring from Illidan and exalted Hyjal rep Ring. The Badge Weapon/Crossbow

I don't remember my stats when doing 1H Fury Test, because my gear changed for Arm spec tests now.

But as you can see the mob dont have Sunder on it, mostly the mob debuff won't benifit my dps. There no JoC or Mangle or FF or CoR or BF.

And i got 32 hit from WW which mean i did 16WW, and 27BT for the test duration. That mean i only hit 1 target with WW, that's why you see me using Nogg Elixir to reduce my size. If i keep testing as a Big Tauren i'll easily hitting 2 target with WW, Nogg Elixir / Deviate solved it.

I don't know but my number seem resonable to me. Fury/Arm Warrior scale very well with gears, just 1 upgrade will mean higher white hit = more rage, more crit = better flurry uptime and more rage = more HS (HS got 15% extra crit) and that give better Flurry, more flurry uptime give more rage and so on...........

Most 1H fury test my DPS was around 2000, sometime it's 1900 with some bad use of HS or Slam, sometime it's over 2k .

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

Kysimir

Yeah, my questions mostly pertain to L80. From what I've seen 1% hit at 80 requires double the hit rating at 70, and our gear (from what thottbot/MMO Champ shows) only realistically accounts for 150 - 170% of the 200% increase. So, that leads me to my 'wall' in my theory crafting. Would going 1h arms(or 1h prot)/fury spec, with the incredible comparative ease of gearing, be better (since I'd have much higher crit/AP etc) than Titan's Grip, at 80? And all I would lose is, TG and (possibly UF).

Since I cannot test it, I came here in hopes that someone was in beta, or had the formulas figured out. My math is based on observation and educated guesses, since (for example) I dont know if 15% miss rate = -15% loss in damage, or if it's larger/smaller. If I'm wrong on parts such as +15% chance to miss =/= -15% damage on yellow attack, please point it out, I'll change it. This goes for simple math mistakes as well.



Taking the pvp weapons as a base for comparison,

1h axe = 150 (rounded down for ease of math) DPS
2h axe = 225 (up for ease of math) DPS.

300 Vs 450 = 33% net increase in white damage. with Titan's Grip.


At level 70:

White damage accounts for 30 - 40% of my damage (a little less, rounding for math)
Bloodthirst 15%
WW 10%
Slam 10%
The rest of the values vary depending on how motivated I am.

So if I did 100,000 damage at L80, using various specs and the "ideal" rotations for each, in the same gear: (Since I doubt the percentages will change, just the damage. I.E. 1/3 = 33%.... 2/6 = 33% Bigger numbers, same percentages)

Titan's Grip

33000 Melee (33%)
15000 BT (15%)
10000 WW (10%)
10000 Slam (10%)
32000 Random damage (32%) -- Includes execute / Deep Wounds / HS / Cleave

33000 + 33% increase from TG = 4389
BT - 15% miss rate = 12750 damage (I'm assuming that 15% miss rate = 15% net loss in damage of said special)
WW = 10000 - 15% = 8500 * 33% (weapon increase) 11300
Slam = 10000 - 15% = 8500 * 33% = 11300
32000 Random Damage * 25% increase (accounting 8% for execute) = 40000

End result = 168250 (missed 15% yellow) - 173490 (never miss yellows)

Fury/Prot 1H specialization

33000 Melee
15000 BT
15000 WW
15000 HS
22000 Random Damage -- Includes Execute, cleave

33000 + 10% = 36300
15000 + 10% = 16500
15000 + 10% = 16500
15000 + 10% = 16500
22000 + 10% = 24000

= 110000 - 20% damage from crits (33% of attacks)
End Result = 103400

Fury/Arms 1H spec sword

33000 Melee
15000 BT
10000 WW
10000 HS
0
32000 Random Damage -- Includes Execute, cleave, Deep wounds

33000
15000
10000
10000
0 + 12 % chance to gain an extra attack, MH or OH = 12000
32000

End Result = 112000

Fury/Arms, Unending Fury over Sword Spec

33000 Melee
15000 BT
10000 WW
10000 HS
32000 Random Damage -- Includes Execute, cleave, Deep wounds

33000
15000 +10% = 16500
10000 +10% = 11000
10000
32000

End Result = 126500



This math is based off 70 percentages, applied to L80 talent builds. I'm not sure how accurate it is (I dont know the alogrithims and exact %'s by heart), just a educated guess (without having access to beta) as to possible L80 outcomes.

Based on pure percentile increases, Titan's Grip comes out with a +70k, 1h fury/prot with +3.4k, fury/arms (Sword Spec) +12k, and fury/arms (UF) +26k. My question is, with the higher crit/AP/expertse (etc) stats, and the much steadier rage gen/GCD management, along with talents possibilities like incite or imp zerk rage, etc, would that account for the 40K - 60K damage differential?