Liar

The 15% miss chance only applies to your yellow damage. Keep in mind that in this case 15% miss chance is greater than just 15% damage lost on specials because of the two roll system (you have to successfully "hit" first before the game checks if it's a critical strike or just a normal hit). So you also lose 0.15 x(your crit chance)%.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Kysimir

Ah yeah, that's right. Subtleties get me every time.

 

dr_AllCOM3

Are you absolutley sure about the two roll system for warriors?

 

Darian_TruBlade

Yes. This was discussed at length previously in the thread. Melee special attacks function on a two roll system.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Liar

Pretty much, yes. If Recklessness doesn't behave out of the ordinary you could test it with 0 hit and Recklessness up as TG spec. If you get a special missing under Recklessness you have proven it to be true.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Gurro

My guess is once they see Deep Wounds is doing 20% of a warriors damage, which is crazy considering its like 1% now for a DW Fury Build on live, then it will be nerfed. While we all agree that it has needed a boost forever, a passive 3 point tier 3 talent doing 1/5 of your dps will not stick around.

 

Uglesh

Honestly it's more a matter of how well our DPS stacks up. Keep in mind that they want EVERYONE to be able to DPS roughly the same. If our numbers are blowing others out of the water then yes it will be cut back.

My gut feeling is that it will scale too well at the higher end and will either need to have the "rolling" effect eliminated or capped.

In the grand scheme of things, I really like having an EFFECTIVE DoT. PvE wise it allows a bit more damage (and even dmg during transitions or movement), and PvP wise it will provide something else to be healed through while we are chain feared and CC'd!!

 

levk

3 talent points providing 20% of your DPS makes it a mandatory talent. If it's a mandatory talent, why is it a talent at all?

 

Liar

What's so new about it? Last Stand is mandatory for Prot Warrior tanking. So is Devastate. There is nothing new about that system at all.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Plitschplatsch

Question from a Priest regarding threat generation: do you warriors generate so much threat now with the changes that pain suppression might become viable in pve?

edit: pain suppression reduces threat by 5%

 

Gruntle

It's not a new thing to have talents that are more or less mandatory, but your examples are hardly comparable. Last stand hardly contributes to 20% extra survivability. Also, I honestly doubt that you will lose 20% threat by skipping devastate. And both talents are tier defining ones (x1 talents) for the prot tree. It makes no sense for DW to be that strong, it should be on the order of 5-8% in total damage. If we do too little damage, they should sort it out in other ways than to buff a tier 3 talent to become the best single talent you can get in all three trees.

 

Liar

My point was (and is) that just because a talent is mandatory for a spec that does not mean it should be baseline. You don't hear me asking to make Devastate and Last Stand baseline because every Prot Warriors picks them up anyway. Every DPS spec worth it's salt is going to grab DW and I wager the fact that DW is partially to make Arms and Fury DPS pull away from Prot DPS since that that spec can't get DW just as easily (or prevent some silly Flurry/Devastate/Deep Wounds spec).

I agree that 20% may be a bit too much but bleeds are the new thing after all so I don't expect it to go down by 12-15% either. Your mileage may vary, but having good and mandatory talents is just nothing new and not a reason to change them.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Nethris

I can see them lowering deep wounds down to 30% rather than 48% of weapon damage, or anything in-between. 30% would give each crit the same dps as the current deep wounds ignoring lost ticks to refreshing, while keeping the "rolling" system that's been introduced for still a decent increase in damage done. On the terminology of using rolling or not, I think the current mage ignite system has also been referred to rolling, though it's nothing like the days of classic ignite rolling.

 

Buka

It depends, really. As a one more "panic button" once in few minutes -- why not? Bu how many pve-priests will go deep in discpline tree in wotlk?

 

Sepulture

The issue at hand here is one of utility. Arms warriors are no longer needed for battle shout since BoM will provide the same AP boost and no longer stacks. It's assumed you have a feral druid in your raid because without one you would want to bring a Fury warrior over an Arms warrior for the Rampage 5% crit buff raid wide. Since you will have a feral druid in the raid by default if you also have an Arms warrior (unless you bring both a fury and an arms warrior), demo roar can be used over demo shout. This leaves the arms warrior with one real benefit, 2% physical damage on one target from BF, which is now only 50% as powerful as pre 3.0.

That means we need to do damage, and a lot of it. That damage from deep wounds is necessary to keep us competitive in raids. If they cut it to 30%, I'm not sure that an arms warrior would generate the dps required to secure a raid spot over another class.

Edit: And I see they created the counterpart to Blood Frenzy: Savage Combat in the combat rogue tree.

I'd say we need that damage if we're going to compete with rogues and hunters.

 

Addled

Quick question for any 80 tanks on the beta: Does Improved Disarm (clicky for link) work against many L80 dungeon bosses and Naxx bosses?

Also, if a boss is immune to the disarm effect, does the +10% damage debuff still get applied?

You'd be surprised, I think. Disc is the new "hotness", especially with the new group mana regen ability in deep Disc.

 

Khab

This way of testing won't give you any result, because both 1 roll or 2 roll system Miss still roll before Crit


Actually i've done my test for this question of 1 roll or 2 roll system for Warrior (i doubt that Blizz change it along with alot of others game Mechanic)


Result : Special is still 2 roll system



Here is the test . I use 0 hit rating gears and 25% Crit , standing there and hit those dummy for 20min or so . You can see i do the long test to wipe out the RNG crit chance.

White hit : 28.2% Crit (some pally run in and hit my dummy for 1min or so before i notice and move to another one without any retardin JoC)

Heroic Strike (with +15% extra crit chance) 25.5% Crit ( if it was 1 roll table, it should be about 25%+15% = 40%)
BT : 19.6%

So, Crit% get diminishing Return from 2 roll table due to high miss chance of TG ( 5% base miss on lv70 + 15% = 20%)

These are the SS of the test :

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

• Darkmyst

What?

In a one roll system explain how anything rolls "before" anything else.

 

◊ Kolmar

He means that miss takes priority on filling the table before crit does.

 

Foundry

I think what he's implying is that crit replaces hit on the table, and hit replaces miss. A miss comes before both. To turn a miss into a crit, it has to be turned into hit first. This was a blue post some time ago, that crit replaces hit on the combat table. Just guessing on what Khab means though, could be wrong.

 

Khab

1 Roll table :

DPS = do it from behind ==> no parry no block

Miss
Dodge
Glancing
Crit
Hit

When you attack the table start to roll

If it not miss
Then it roll for dodge
Not miss, not dodge then roll for glancing
Not miss,dodge,glancing then roll for Crit

..........
........
That's how we was using Block to pushing Crush out of attack table, because if Miss+Parry+dodge+Block filled the attack table, 15% crushing blow of the boss will never become true.

This mean, if your attack got 100% miss chance, you'll never see dodge or anything below
If your Miss+dodge+Parry+Glancing is already 100%, you'll never see any Crit no matter how high your crit chance is.


2 Roll table is :

Miss
Dodge
Block
Hit

When it's Block or hit 2nd Roll begind to roll for Crit or no crit


Both table Miss alway roll 1st. Even if you got 200% Crit chance, but as long as you got chance to miss you'll miss.

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

• Darkmyst

I was just confused by the way you said it. (Crit can't push miss off the combat table is a better way to say if you ask me)

 

Khab

Yeah sorry for some confusion, but English is not my monther laguage.

I'll try to be careful then.

Don't walk in-front of me, i might not follow
Don't walk behind me, i might not lead
Just walk beside me, be my friend.

(ps: walking beside a Tank ? WW and Cleave inc)

 

XereX

Question for those in Beta that have done Lv80, 25 man raids:

On DPS meters, where dose Furry Warrior with TG ends up on the list?


My only concerns with furry warriors is that, this class has been balanced (for lack of better word) around the end game gear of Lich king which we haven't even seen yet; That means in the early dung/raid our DPS will be lower then other physical melee DPS counterparts, like Rogue, Ret Paladin, Enhancement shaman. (that is my own opinion)

Is the DPS from the Furry Warrior good enough to not feel like you are being carried through the raids?

What do i mean by being carried through the raids? lets say you have basic set-up that gives you all the buff/debuffs you can get in your raid and the remaining spots are for DPS. if Furry warrior is doing (an example value) of 2000 DPS while rogue is doing 3500 DPS, then why bring the warrior, and no intelligent raid leader would do that unless they are friend or something. that is what i mean by being carried through raids.


I regularly read these boards but hardly ever post, and your answer to my question will help me decide what to play for lich king. my options are Warlock, Warrior, Hunter, Paladin but i have plaid warrior for 3+ years and i am most interested in that class.


Thank you in advance for your help, DPS meters, Recount graphs etc.

 

JTLJudoMan

One guy on the beta forums as a fury warrior was hitting 5900 dps on some of the fights. On most of them he was top dpser.

Granted he may be God's gift to fury warriors but I think the damage output from TG is pretty good at the moment.