WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 119

cainor · 10/08/08, 2:54 AM

I could not test at all. Neither on Beta nor on PTR.
Got simple and short question.
Will 1h fury be at least an option to be competetive at lvl 70?
Thinking of dual warglaives vs Cats + Blade of the Harbingers either one of them arms or both with titans grip.

The poster above stated the TG Fury from the Official Forums with 5900 DPS. The discussion seemed to be like arms tops titans grip. Is this guy just a wonder, or did the latest builds change that much?

JTLJudoMan · 10/08/08, 3:06 AM

Originally Posted by cainor

I could not test at all. Neither on Beta nor on PTR.
Got simple and short question.
Will 1h fury be at least an option to be competetive at lvl 70?
Thinking of dual warglaives vs Cats + Blade of the Harbingers either one of them arms or both with titans grip.

The poster above stated the TG Fury from the Official Forums with 5900 DPS. The discussion seemed to be like arms tops titans grip. Is this guy just a wonder, or did the latest builds change that much?

The first couple of pages was about an arms warrior doing 5300+ dps on patchwerk.

Near the end of the thread I asked for a fury warrior to post their dps stats and he posted a link to a raid where he consistently was near the top of the charts doing nice dps. Once up at the 5900 dps that I mentioned.

Gandharva · 10/08/08, 3:36 AM

Originally Posted by JTLJudoMan

The first couple of pages was about an arms warrior doing 5300+ dps on patchwerk.

Could you please provide a URL?

Soloman · 10/08/08, 3:38 AM

Originally Posted by Khab

1 Roll table :

When you attack the table start to roll

If it not miss
Then it roll for dodge
Not miss, not dodge then roll for glancing
Not miss,dodge,glancing then roll for Crit

Basically right but your wording is a bit off, the above implies a 3-4 roll system which I am sure was not your intent.

It helps to think of the RNG doing a /rand 100

Miss: 1 -> 5
Dodge: 6 -> 10
Glance: 11 -> 26
Hit: XX -> XY
Crit: XY+1 -> 100

would be a single roll system.

Enkidu · 10/08/08, 3:51 AM

Better dps on Loatheb could be done with a fast offhand, I've still not tested it in a raid as I usually spec protection but Loatheb + fast offhand should pull insane dps from deep wounds alone (with proper buffs/debuffs), imagine scorch giving you fireball size ignites with a minor direct damage dps loss.

About disarm:
Raids:
Malygos P2, 4 Horsemen (extremely powerful on 4H), Gothik/Noth adds, random trash mobs.
5 mans:
It's a very powerful talent here, many bosses can be disarmed aswell as nearly all weapon carrying trash mobs.

ZeTodu · 10/08/08, 5:15 AM

Did you think that 20-21% hit will be enough or I must go for 24% to maximize my DMG! I can get easy 21% by regeming just 3 slots with 10 hit gems!

Tizzlewump · 10/08/08, 5:28 AM

Originally Posted by Naggaroth

Different topic question: Does anyone know why melee haste doesn't effect the GCD or melee cooldown abilities like it does for casters?

Thanks

Spell haste affects the gcd becuase of spells with a base cast time of 1.5 seconds, not instant cast spells. Like slam, all spells with a cast time incur a gcd so spell haste was having strictly no effect on spells like scorch, wrath, and flash heal -- you were locked out of starting a new cast for the full 1.5 seconds regardless of true cast time. Moreover, the spell queue added in patch 2.3 will properly queue and chain cast any spell following a cast time of length gcd, but not those cast after a true instant spell. Considering the phenomenal amount of haste required to affect 1.5 seconds of anything and the fact that latency is allowed to eat into the gains to instant spam, spell haste buffs these non-instant spells much more than the instant casts.

There may be pvp implications but I wouldn't know them if they farmed me for 100 points.

Gruntle · 10/08/08, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by Enkidu

Better dps on Loatheb could be done with a fast offhand, I've still not tested it in a raid as I usually spec protection but Loatheb + fast offhand should pull insane dps from deep wounds alone (with proper buffs/debuffs), imagine scorch giving you fireball size ignites with a minor direct damage dps loss.

I was thinking about this as well. Do we know if the deep wounds damage is calculated from the base damage of the weapon that triggered it, or does it work like Sword spec (i.e. always uses the MH damage)? In that case a fast offhand will be a superb option for maximizing DW damage (maybe even enough to make it viable to use 2h MH+ 1h offhand, although I doubt it).

About the power of Deep Wounds for arms. While I think that arms might need that damage to compete, it should be noted that the current position of DW makes it a nobrainer for TG warriors at 80 to pick it. The talent is too low in the tree to be that powerful in my opinion. One idea could be to make it 30% weapon damage as base and let Blood Frenzy (or Trauma) increase the damage back to 48%.

Bronwyn · 10/08/08, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by Gandharva

Could you please provide a URL?

Hey Gandharva

Klick

Khab · 10/08/08, 7:16 AM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

I was thinking about this as well. Do we know if the deep wounds damage is calculated from the base damage of the weapon that triggered it, or does it work like Sword spec (i.e. always uses the MH damage)? In that case a fast offhand will be a superb option for maximizing DW damage (maybe even enough to make it viable to use 2h MH+ 1h offhand, although I doubt it).

About the power of Deep Wounds for arms. While I think that arms might need that damage to compete, it should be noted that the current position of DW makes it a nobrainer for TG warriors at 80 to pick it. The talent is too low in the tree to be that powerful in my opinion. One idea could be to make it 30% weapon damage as base and let Blood Frenzy (or Trauma) increase the damage back to 48%.

Deep Wound only use the Weapon dmg of your MH as i believe.

If you are Prot Warrior and you Crit with shield Slam, the target still bleed with your MH Weapon dmg.

It's stilll too early to say anything, but if blizz already said they will give us the ability to stay Top or near the Top of DPS charts, let's presume that we can get there with proper playing style and gears.

Liar · 10/08/08, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by Khab

If you are Prot Warrior and you Crit with shield Slam, the target still bleed with your MH Weapon dmg.

Well, that's more because of the fact that a Shield is not a real weapon, isn't it? Bloodthirst crits also apply DW from your MH since it's not weapon specific.
That said, I am pretty sure that all crits from any crits will apply the DW from your MH weapon damage.

Enkidu · 10/08/08, 11:06 AM

All crits apply deep wounds off the MH damage range. WW is currently bugged and offhand crits will not trigger deep wounds.

Using a fast offhand might very well be worth it, deep wounds in a raid setting could amount to as much as 1k dps in its current form (I've seen it roll as a 2.3k dot for a decent amount of time during lucky crits testing - about 40% crit logged, similar to what crit would be in a raid setting using Demise + Last Laugh), I'm really hoping to do some raid testing soon.

Bronwyn · 10/08/08, 11:35 AM

Speaking of unique raid utility - wouldn't a battle shout with [Solarian's Sapphire] be more valuable than BoM?

Liar · 10/08/08, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

Speaking of unique raid utility - wouldn't a battle shout with [Solarian's Sapphire] be more valuable than BoM?

Most likely for level 70, yes. But the WotLK version looks like Solarian's Sapphire - Item - World of Warcraft. The "up to" is probably going to be 0 at level 80 but someone that is level 80 and has the trinket should confirm it if possible.

KraxisSingular · 10/08/08, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

Speaking of unique raid utility - wouldn't a battle shout with [Solarian's Sapphire] be more valuable than BoM?

Heh... nice catch. A staple among many DPS warriors, and it might throw the careful balancing done by Blizzard out the window.

Well, at least one can assume it won't be worth it at 80, so I doubt any sort of hotfix for it. But for 3.0.x it will definately make BoM redundant.

[EDIT] Aw damn, beat to it, and not only that it has already been fixed it seems.

Kartan · 10/08/08, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

Most likely for level 70, yes. But the WotLK version looks like Solarian's Sapphire - Item - World of Warcraft. The "up to" is probably going to be 0 at level 80 but someone that is level 80 and has the trinket should confirm it if possible.

The wording on it may also be interpreted to mean that the AP bonus no longer applies to other raid members, just for the warrior.

Enkidu · 10/08/08, 12:02 PM

Solarian Sapphire grants you up to 110 AP now, and only you, check the new tooltip.

Seems deep wounds was changed with the latest build, it's slightly more consistent with the damage it should be doing (less, but it's still on the high side) and a fast offhand might only be viable for Loatheb now (I could not replicate the 2.3k+ ticks I often had before on dummies, so far). WW offhand crits still don't proc it, and OH crits still give MH damage range deep wounds, but the way old and new deep wounds stack is now different.

hellord · 10/08/08, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tizzlewump

Spell haste affects the gcd becuase of spells with a base cast time of 1.5 seconds, not instant cast spells. Like slam, all spells with a cast time incur a gcd so spell haste was having strictly no effect on spells like scorch, wrath, and flash heal -- you were locked out of starting a new cast for the full 1.5 seconds regardless of true cast time. Moreover, the spell queue added in patch 2.3 will properly queue and chain cast any spell following a cast time of length gcd, but not those cast after a true instant spell. Considering the phenomenal amount of haste required to affect 1.5 seconds of anything and the fact that latency is allowed to eat into the gains to instant spam, spell haste buffs these non-instant spells much more than the instant casts.

There may be pvp implications but I wouldn't know them if they farmed me for 100 points.

I'm not sure I got your point.
Spellhaste afaik on live should decrease the global cooldown of every mana user, not only the gcd of <1.5 cast time spells. On my druid on live I could cast a LB every 1.3 seconds (BL+latency) and during Bloodlust every caster class is getting also a gcd reduction while melee just get faster autoattack.

What I don't know is if hunters and shamans have a gcd reduction on melee/physical abilities dunring BL or with spellhaste (probably some shaman can test this with enh spec and haste healing gear).
I am instead pretty sure Slam cast time is not affected by haste/BL, never tried it with spellhaste on live, but it's still a 0.5 sec cast on PTR with around 25% haste (with WF totem).

With the stats omogeneization haste should affect both spell and melee abilities, but if things stay the same only mana users (or maybe only casters) should have a gcd decrease after casting a spell.

Any of the sentence above is wrong?
Are you saying that instant spells gets no benefits at all from haste (this should apply both on live and beta/ptr)?
And are you also saying that new changes in haste will affect spells like Slam after patch 3.0?

I can't properly test some of these things especially cause i got very high latency on PTR. Would be glad to know that haste will have some kind of benefit on our spells.

Ragge · 10/08/08, 12:59 PM

Do all your testings (on TG) include enchants on the weapons and if so, what enchants seems to be the best so far? I´m thinking of the ones you could get from TBC and from a lvl:70:s perpective. What combinations seems be the best with Excecutioneer, Moongoose and Savagery? Would be nice to see some figures on that before i enchant them before the expansion.

nfw · 10/08/08, 1:02 PM

Are there any cloth gear with only hit, crit and haste ratings?

Mode · 10/08/08, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by nfw

Are there any cloth gear with only hit, crit and haste ratings?

Yes. I distinctly remember seeing a piece of green quest reward cloth that had no wasted stats for a warrior. I can't find it or any examples on better pieces. Thankfully, we will not have to suffer the indignity of wearing cloth.

Prinsesa · 10/08/08, 1:36 PM

hellord: While haste rating has been merged, spell haste and melee haste percentage buffs are still very much separate.

For example, the Windfury Totem's buff is melee and ranged haste only, while the Paladin's Judgements of the Pure talent is spell haste only.

The game can also differentiate between melee/ranged abilities and spells.

Haste rating is merged, but does not affect the GCD of Warriors, Hunters and Rogues. We also have instances where haste does not affect the cast time of 'physical' abilities, such as Slam. We also have the case of Steady Shot, whose cast time is affected by haste, but since the GCD isn't, the Hunter gains no additional benefit of reducing the cast time below 1.5 seconds.

Finally, we can look towards Shaman and Paladins, who have instant-cast abilities whose GCDs are both affected and not affected by haste (rating and/or buffs). Casting a Seal is considered a spell and has its GCD reduced by haste, while Crusader Strike is not.

hellord · 10/08/08, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

hellord: While haste rating has been merged, spell haste and melee haste percentage buffs are still very much separate.

For example, the Windfury Totem's buff is melee and ranged haste only, while the Paladin's Judgements of the Pure talent is spell haste only.

The game can also differentiate between melee/ranged abilities and spells.

Haste rating is merged, but does not affect the GCD of Warriors, Hunters and Rogues. We also have instances where haste does not affect the cast time of 'physical' abilities, such as Slam. We also have the case of Steady Shot, whose cast time is affected by haste, but since the GCD isn't, the Hunter gains no additional benefit of reducing the cast time below 1.5 seconds.

Finally, we can look towards Shaman and Paladins, who have instant-cast abilities whose GCDs are both affected and not affected by haste (rating and/or buffs). Casting a Seal is considered a spell and has its GCD reduced by haste, while Crusader Strike is not.

Thnx for the reply.
So only shamans and pallies will see the effect of haste on their spell gcd.
A bit sad since haste is not that great for Arms and ArP has been nerfed to oblivion... Stacking AP and crit seems to be the way to follow.

Oakenshield_Drenden · 10/08/08, 2:50 PM

Hello -

I've read quite a bit of the thread but I'll admit I could still use some help working out my prot spec. At this point I'm largely working on my pre-release spec, although I'll note where I plan to change it once WotLK goes live.

Here it is
Pre WotLK Prot Spec

What I'll probably be doing for the next month : Light raiding (Kara, ZA, maybe some SSC), Heroics, and Soloing to get a handle on the new talents and confirm viable dps.

Here are my comments/questions:

I'm still struggling with the relative value of Shield Specialization in the new world. Am I good with the min (2) or do I need to max this out? If I do max it out, where would you recommend I get the points?
I'm taking a few points in Toughness as a nod to some of the light raiding, but will probably dump this some more points in cruelty once WotLK goes live. As I get close to 80 it will come back for raiding. If I need more/less here please advise.
Yes, I know I'm probably wasting a point on Vigilance, but I want to try it out pre-release. I'll probably dump it for release if - as I suspect - my experience is consistent with what's been reported.
For my fury points, Obviously I'd prefer to max out cruelty but without dumping something on Prot I don't see a way to do this
Post release I'm trying to decide whether to feed points into Armored to the Teeth. What's the verdict on this one?

DarthGreg · 10/08/08, 3:46 PM

Probably doesn't strictly belong here but, what's the consensus on level 70 post-3.0 main-hand DPS enchants? Does Executioner's change to a rating (it is being changed, right?) at somewhere in the neighborhood of 15% reduction make it worse than Mongoose now?