Pedaw

Every class has a threat reducing ability. Only warriors and shamans don't. Yes its going to be anoying with only 2-3 paladins.

 

Vodrin

Don't worry too much about missing BoS/tranquil air. Looks like classes are going to get more passive base reductions like the 28% rogues get before their talented reductions. I'm sure a lot of their work is going into balancing and they don't expect the changes to their tanking abilities to make the 43% gap.

This isn't true, all threat reduction multiplies to prevent negative threat.

Assuming 30% talent;

Base: 1000 TPS
Talent: 1000*0.7 = 700 TPS [30%]
BoS + Talent: 1000*0.7*0.7 = 490 TPS [51%]
BoS + Talent + Tranquil: 1000*0.7*0.7*0.8 = 392 TPS [61.8%]

700/490 = 1.428...

Losing salv is a ~43% (10/7) increase in threat.

 

Othieus

Sure salv is gone but don't warriors get 2 threat reducing talents in the fury tree? With a total of 20% passive reduced threat, I don't think it's going to be as bad as you think. The only thing thats going to suck is that you pretty much have to get both of them. People are going to have to learn to use their threat reducing abilitys more (eg Feint, Fade, Cower, ect.)and possibly include them into their dps rotation. I realize that not every class has abilities like that but I guess some people will have to stop being bad and actuitaly watch Omen.

 

Crimsonstorm

Extra threat reduction talents in the fury tree dont help a Blood Frenzy build.

 

Rabbitskull

I think that Arms PvE is the one who has to worry, due to 32/39.

 

Pedaw

Arms does crap damage theres your help.

 

Graul

Yay. While you're at it, could you check to see if Bloodbath can proc weapon procs and effects (ala Hamstring) or is it just applied like a dot?

 

Crimsonstorm

Yes.

Thats basically how I'm seeing it. But I still currently pull aggro as arms without a Salv...

 

Fallacy

Read on the beta forums that the Strength to block value conversion was changed to 2:1. Any confirmation on that?

 

Crimsonstorm

Dang, I was hoping for 1:1. 2:1 wont be enough block value. (Theyre probably removing block value as a stat and giving us lots of Str on tank gear....).

We need big blocks in order to match the mitigcation of a druid, now that there are no crushing blows

 

Gruntle

Oh joy!

There goes the all standard cycles out through the window. No way that you can maintain a BT/WW cycle while timing slams after all BT crits. I see this a a great change, no more mindless spamming and more keeping on the toes to achieve optimum dps. I'm really looking forward to a TG build now (wasn't too keen before really).

I think Bloodsurge slams with a 2-hander, the small damage increase from TG itself (including extra stats and WW damage) and added bleed damage from a 2-hander compared to a a 1-hander will easily make up for the damage gain in going dual 1h with weapon spec. I guess you will still be able to use some kind of semicycle, prioritizing the gcd's, something like WW>BT and Bloodsurge slams whenever up. I'm not sure about Bloodbath, maybe it could be used as a gcd filler if talented (it should anyway be superb against enraged targets, Rend will probably be worth the stance switch under those circumstances too).

I guess the competing builds for pure dps will be either:
-21/50/0, with Bloodletting for extra Bloodbath damage (if this is worth it) and 1 point in weapon spec (either sword or axe).
-25/46/0, with full weapon spec and 1/5 TG (based on Shha's comments)

It's going to be really tricky to model dps with spreadsheets without a proper cycle to work with. Maybe the people working with Rawr will have a working full scale swing simulator, with ability prioritizing by then.

edit: I'm an idiot that can't seem to remember that Rend is only available in Battle and def stance.

 

Darmon

Big block values, with a untalented conversion of 1block:1dmg might make SSlam the highest dmg skill of a warrior, available to all since now it's trainable. PvP will sure be intersting, maybe arms with 1h+shield, with SS as main dmg abilty and MS for debuff only.

Curently in live, i pvped as prot, and the most important thing was not the lack of dmg, but the lack of MS debuff.

 

Dra

I don't even understand why people are worried about the removal of salvation. Get this; the game isn't going to work if tanks can not keep agro, so the developers have no choice but to increase tank threat. Posting numbers is completely useless until you're at 80 and unable to keep aggro on anything, and I will eat my balls if that's how it turns out. Removing salvation and tranquil air is a good thing because now we don't have to depend on other paladins for what is essentially ~40% of our tps, because that is what the whole threat deal was balanced around untill now.

 

Densor

I think you guys are making the threat issue out to be a bigger deal than it is. Currently, there are 3 classes who are in danger of pulling aggro: mages, warlocks, and hunters. Hunters do so because they are stupid or get a feign resist that screws them, not your problem, plus most of them would rather get kings, might, and wisdom rather than salv anyway. Warlocks are probably going to end up getting a 4-8% damage reduction due to ISB and DS nerfs. Mages only really have issues if they get a lot of crits in a row early on in the fight or during their cooldowns.

Sure, that is going to change with the loss of salvation, but assuming that a mage is putting out 2k DPS, you'll be required to put out 1400 TPS to match. Now, assuming you can maintain the 1.4k TPS, the mage doesn't have to do anything to not pull aggro. Now, let's assume you can only put out 1200 TPS. That means the mage gets 300 threat closer to pulling aggro every second. On a single target fight, you're likely to get 2 or 3 misdirects for say 4.5k threat each (I actually have no clue how much threat a MD adds). So, you get an extra 9k threat to work with. That means in 30 seconds, the mage will pull aggro if nothing changes. After 30 seconds, the mage can slow down to only putting out 1700 DPS or he can pop invisibility, spend 3 seconds doing nothing, and then lose all threat. 33 seconds into the fight, the mage is at 0 threat, you're at 48.6k. The mage then starts building threat again. After another 1:30 seconds, the hunters misdirect again, and you are up another 9k threat on the mage. 100 seconds after that, the mage hits your cap and has to slow down. 20 seconds later, you get another MD, which gives the mage another 30 seconds of full burn. Maybe the mage runs out of mana and has to evocate, or just decides to anyway, that's 10 seconds of 0 DPS, resulting in another 40 seconds of full burn the mage puts out. 10 seconds after hitting that cap, Invis cools down and the mage is fine for the rest of the fight.

In total, over 5:36 seconds of a fight, the mage put out about 290 seconds of full DPS and 30 seconds of 15% reduced DPS, with 16 seconds of 0 DPS, for a total of 8% reduced DPS due to threat limitations. That doesn't even take into account that fire mages have backloaded threat generation, so their 2000 DPS over the course of the fight might be 1900 DPS for the first 80% and then 2400 DPS for the last 20%. They won't even see a damage reduction due to threat.

Warlocks are a bit trickier, but again, 2k DPS warlock, 1.2k TPS tank. Starting with 9k threat from MD, you've got 20 seconds of burn time for that warlock (due to how warlock damage scales when not life tapping). The warlock calls for a Hand of Salvation and loses 18.3% of his threat over 10 seconds while lifetapping and refreshing DoT's, effectively doing 0 DPS. 50 seconds after that, the warlock hits your cap again and blows soulshatter, reducing his threat by 50%. 40 seconds later, the hunters MD again, giving you another 9k threat. The warlock calls for another hand of salv 20 seconds later, lifetapping to refill his mana pool. And pretty much after that the warlock is good until soulshatter comes up again.

The only critical part for the warlock is DPS'ing carefully until soulshatter can be blown with a reasonable amount of threat. Being able to lifetap while losing threat from Hand of Salvation will basically mean HoS isn't a DPS loss for warlocks. And things will be fine without Blessing of Salvation and Tranquil Air.

I imagine things will be fine, as long as people watch their threat and wait as long as reasonably possible to use their threat clearing cooldowns. And given that a bunch of DPS buffs that tanks don't normally get will be raid wide, tanks should be capable of maintaining the higher TPS necessary to make things work. I know that putting an enhancement shaman in the tank group has a huge effect on TPS, to the point where I don't pay attention to Omen when raiding except on fights where tank threat is touchy for other reasons.

 

Tornaz

DPS warriors, Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladins.

 

Muggins

Probably a daft question, but does normal slam still reset the swing timer?

 

Densor

They are all hybrid DPS classes and as such get a 30% threat reduction through talents as opposed to the 10% that mages and warlocks get. The increase from a 10% threat reduction through talents to 30% threat reduction through talents almost entirely makes up for the loss of Blessing of Salvation (70% vs 63%). If they are doing 2k DPS, you'll only need to generate 1275 TPS to keep them in check, compared to the 1400 TPS you'd need for mages and warlocks. Using my situation where you're only generating 1200 TPS, the misdirects for 7.6k threat (modified from 130% ranged to 110% melee threat thresholds) will allow those 3 classes to DPS for almost 2 minutes without an issue. Holding back for a slight amount will hold them over until the 2nd round of Hand of Salvations come up and they are able to get one. The warlocks can wait until the 3rd or until their soulshatters come up instead of getting the 2nd wave.

For the ranged hybrid DPS classes, they are getting the 30% threat reductions, which means with 2k DPS, you'll only need to do 1075 TPS to keep them in check. If you're having problems with them, you've lost all your mages, warlocks, and melee (maybe the rogues survive with feint).

 

outcast

You conveniently forget that all three have already mechanisms to actively reduce their own threat.

Of course it remains to be seen how the BoS and tank threat change works out, but I can tell you, already now with BoS, the most likely person to die from overaggroing a boss in our SWP raids is me, the Fury warrior with 20% innate threat reduction from my stance and extra 10% from talents and 30% from BoS - I do not have a get-out card unless I get a Soulstone, combat res or DI.

 

Graul

You are leaving out the extra 20% threat threshold classes get from being out of melee range. Warlocks, Mages and Hunters also have activated threat reducers while Warriors, Shamans and Paladins do not. And you are grossly mistaken if you think that the additional 6% threat reduction from new talents in the Fury tree will make up for losing 30%.

 

Tornaz

Well, palladins have bubble (unless that's been changed) and Shamans have Improved Death, but they are certainly nowhere near the utility of Soulshatter, Invisible and Feign Death.

 

Graul

A Paladin's bubble has more applications than just threat removal, so it's not a reliable method of threat reduction. And what exactly is Improved Death? You aren't talking about Reincarnation are you?

 

Tornaz

Yes, I was being sarcastic on both counts.

It's mostly going to be an issue for Arms warriors. Fury at least has inline threat reduction.

 

Bungie

The one thing that is presently bothering me about Titan's Grip is how it will affect how a warriors need to gear. Considering that since we are dual wielding we will still suffer from the increased miss rate penalty, also with both weapons being of such slow speed along with the increased swing time from Titan's Grip itself, the need to have larger amounts of hit rating versus what we would normally use as one handed fury arises. With a miss being a much larger loss of rage, and having our white attacks with much larger intervals apart, the loss of rage from a miss will lead to being unable to use any instants till our next source of incoming rage, most likely having one or two useless GCD's. With this a much larger emphasis will be placed upon hit for a TG Fury warrior over just a standard one handed weapon version.

 

Graul

Blizzard might wise up and either add a 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% chance to hit for each rank of Titan's Grip, or simply alter the dual wield penalty (while using two handers) so that you are only getting the default 2h miss rate, but for each weapon. The end result would be the same. Unless the itemization is going to cater to the default version, and there will be items with massive amounts of hit rating (among other useful stats) it doesn't seem like a talent you would want to invest more than a single point into if you have the proper weapons to take advantage of a Sword or Axe Spec build.

 

gia

What about using a slow 2h in mainhand and a fast 1h in offhand to smooth out rage generation? You lose out on the double stats for having a 2h weapon in the offhand though... maybe a fast 2h weapon like [Brutal Gladiator's Painsaw]?