Considering the current "best" boot enchant under any circumstance that requires anything more than about 5-10 seconds of running is Cat's Swiftness, I can't really see the new Surefooted all of a sudden beating it because of an added 10 crit rating. The runspeed on Cat's Swiftness scales with your damage as well, the crit rating has reduced effectiveness as you level. I'm 90% sure that the best boot enchant will still be Cat's Swiftness.
Considering the current "best" boot enchant under any circumstance that requires anything more than about 5-10 seconds of running is Cat's Swiftness, I can't really see the new Surefooted all of a sudden beating it because of an added 10 crit rating. The runspeed on Cat's Swiftness scales with your damage as well, the crit rating has reduced effectiveness as you level. I'm 90% sure that the best boot enchant will still be Cat's Swiftness.
Thats not that clear. Math first.
Currently cats is 6 agi and other choice is 12 agi from dexterity. 6 agi difference for getting speed.
Surefooted means you get 10 crit 10 hit vs 6 agi. Considering agi is more or less 2/3 of crit value (almost exact), we can say its 6 crit 10 hit for getting speed.
Using typical SEP for TG from this thread, 6 agix0.63= ~3.8 SEP, and 10 hit 6 crit = ~18 SEP.
The "cost" of getting speed went up almost 5 times. So if before it was better when you run around 10 seconds , now its ~45 seconds of running before cats pulls ahead.
Another thing is more personal experience. If we talk about such min maxing AT LEVEL 70 we mean sunwell.
Kalecgos - speed is really good here, no doubts about it
Brutallus - useless
Felmyst - useless. If i run from encaps i can do it without speed, and i INTERCEPT back after WAITING till its over. Run speed does nothing to speed the process. Speed can be useful if you have problems running out.
Twins - same as felmyst. Run for conflag, intercept back.
M'uru - never really dpsed it, but sides are pretty stationary, and on entropius, speed or not you are going to catch up with tank.
KJ - running around him while dpsing means speed dont affect your damage much.
On other hand for tanking i totally agree - speed is a must on most of the fights.
Are most folks who are going TG placing +hit gems in most slots regardless of color or just the yellow sockets?
After reading how well the BoH is for TG, I decided to save up another 150 badges for it and pair it up with my S4 sword (also have a cat's edge, soul cleaver and s3 mace) but this will leave me with practically 0 badges for regemming. At least I can mix and match some gear since I never have thrown anything away that I collected from BT/SW.
Are most folks who are going TG placing +hit gems in most slots regardless of color or just the yellow sockets?
After reading how well the BoH is for TG, I decided to save up another 150 badges for it and pair it up with my S4 sword (also have a cat's edge, soul cleaver and s3 mace) but this will leave me with practically 0 badges for regemming. At least I can mix and match some gear since I never have thrown anything away that I collected from BT/SW.
Well my TG setup for 3.0
Helm of Illidari Shatt + 10hit+RED (socket bonus)
Hard Khorium Choker - 10 hit (socket bonus)
Pauldrons of Berserking - 5hit/5agi 10hit (socket bonus)
Warharness of Reckless Fury - 10hitx2+24ap (socket bonus)
Onslaught Bracers - 5hit/6stam(heroic gem, no bonus), Belt+Boots - both 10 hit (socket bonus)
Hard Khorium Battlefists -10hit/5str+crit(socket bonus)
Felfury Legplates - 5hit/6stam+5hit/5agi+10hit (socket bonus)
Thats it i think, oh wait the ninja star from sunwell (w/e its called) with 10 hit.
2x BOH
End stats 405 haste 311 hit (331 or cap with food).
So as you see you can gem for hit without losing any socket bonus.
New gems worth getting
Slave Pens heroic - vivid chrysophrase - 5spell hit/6 stam -> 5 hit/6 stam
Shadow Labs heroic - 5 str/4hit - its slightly better then 5 agi/5 hit pyrestones, but i honestly didnt bother. Too little of a differnce, and it would actually "uncap" me for hit. even if 15 str > 15 agi +3 hit in spreadsheets, I just feel "better" with a true hit cap.
With the changes to strength and tanking, is it now appropriate to use strength gems at any point? Since Protection Warriors seem to be becoming more blocking machines I was wondering if we would want to gem strength in an effort to boost our Shield Block Value. I'm thinking mostly about level 80 raiding but if its appropriate now I'd be interested in knowing as well.
My apologies if this was covered recently, I did a quick search and didn't see this mentioned.
With the coming homogenization of critical, hit, and haste ratings, would it be more beneficial to use a Chaotic Skyfire Diamond over a RED? 12 crit rating on the CSD = .54% crit compared to RED, with Kings being .4%. Or does the CSD not affect melee crits?
With the changes to strength and tanking, is it now appropriate to use strength gems at any point? Since Protection Warriors seem to be becoming more blocking machines I was wondering if we would want to gem strength in an effort to boost our Shield Block Value. I'm thinking mostly about level 80 raiding but if its appropriate now I'd be interested in knowing as well.
My apologies if this was covered recently, I did a quick search and didn't see this mentioned.
At 70, I still think Agi is better, depending on your other stats.
Sovereign Shadowsong - 5 str / 7 stamina: 2.5 block value, 10 ap
Shifting Shadowsong - 5 agi / 7 stamina: 10 Armor, 0.167% to crit, and a variable amount of dodge depending on your other stats.
Once you're in Northrend, you're better off with expertise for red/purple gems until you're capped (~14.25% parry chance against bosses or +3 mobs in TBC). Your existing expertise is basically cut in half by the time you're 80 due to rating decay and you're going to be replacing a lot of Sunwell/T6 gear for additional defense rating to be uncrittable. Early raiding, you'll probably want at least a couple slots filled with Guardian's cut stones.
Expertise is still one of the best 2-way stats you can get, as is agility. Strength is good if you need threat and you're close to the expertise cap, but it's not that great as a mitigation stat (Agi and expertise scale with incoming damage, block value does not).
1. I would recommend taking the points out of Incite and Improved Disciplines. Threat is so ridiculously easy to generate that 15% crit is not going to break the bank, nor do I expect that you would need to Shield Wall more than once every 5 minutes.
I would still consider Shield Spec to be a great talent, as it adds a nontrivial amount of mitigation and synergizes with Critical Block.
2. I would still max out Toughness after removing the points in Incite and Improved Disciplines, although you could just as easily put them into Armored to the Teeth as well.
3. I don't see why Vigilance is being considered a bad talent. Redirecting 10% of your top DPSer's threat to you seals your own threat lead, and would probably be terrific in smoothing tank transitions.
4. You can probably afford to lose the points in Improved Revenge unless you plan on leveling/soloing in Prot Stance.
EDIT: The build I'm describing would look something like THIS
If you're going to go concussion blow I would to imp revenge for another chance to stun. Not only that, but revenge is your highest DPS/most used ability so giving it 20% more damage seems like a logical move.
If you're not going incite why go cruelty over AttC?
Helm of Illidari Shatt + 10hit+RED (socket bonus)
Hard Khorium Choker - 10 hit (socket bonus)
Pauldrons of Berserking - 5hit/5agi 10hit (socket bonus)
Warharness of Reckless Fury - 10hitx2+24ap (socket bonus)
Onslaught Bracers - 5hit/6stam(heroic gem, no bonus), Belt+Boots - both 10 hit (socket bonus)
Hard Khorium Battlefists -10hit/5str+crit(socket bonus)
Felfury Legplates - 5hit/6stam+5hit/5agi+10hit (socket bonus)
Thats it i think, oh wait the ninja star from sunwell (w/e its called) with 10 hit.
2x BOH
End stats 405 haste 311 hit (331 or cap with food).
So as you see you can gem for hit without losing any socket bonus.
New gems worth getting
Slave Pens heroic - vivid chrysophrase - 5spell hit/6 stam -> 5 hit/6 stam
Shadow Labs heroic - 5 str/4hit - its slightly better then 5 agi/5 hit pyrestones, but i honestly didnt bother. Too little of a differnce, and it would actually "uncap" me for hit. even if 15 str > 15 agi +3 hit in spreadsheets, I just feel "better" with a true hit cap.
Thanks for the info, Shha.
I figured I would make all yellows into +10 hit by default. I guess I will need to buy more pyrestones too.
The gear I was thinking of regemming/switching is:
hard khorium BP -> 3x+10 hit or switch back to T6 chest with same gem setup.
gloves of immortal dusk -> regem/re-enchant or switch back to grips of silent justice (and regem)
leggards of divine ret -> back to legs of endless rage or T6 legs or Brutal glad legs.
Looks like I can jump from my 181 hit rating up to about ~277 or higher hit, although I will lose a bit of crit and lose a whole hell of a lot of AP from the loss of those str gems.
Can I please get a clarification on imp MS, the 10% damage is for the total MS damage and not just for the bonus damage correct?
Of those of you that have been using arms for both pve and pvp, how valuable is unrelenting assault? It seems that the talent is diminished after the change to taste for blood, at least to the point where maybe only 1 talent into it instead of 2?
Helm of Illidari Shatt + 10hit+RED (socket bonus)
Hard Khorium Choker - 10 hit (socket bonus)
Pauldrons of Berserking - 5hit/5agi 10hit (socket bonus)
Warharness of Reckless Fury - 10hitx2+24ap (socket bonus)
Onslaught Bracers - 5hit/6stam(heroic gem, no bonus), Belt+Boots - both 10 hit (socket bonus)
Hard Khorium Battlefists -10hit/5str+crit(socket bonus)
Felfury Legplates - 5hit/6stam+5hit/5agi+10hit (socket bonus)
Thats it i think, oh wait the ninja star from sunwell (w/e its called) with 10 hit.
2x BOH
End stats 405 haste 311 hit (331 or cap with food).
So as you see you can gem for hit without losing any socket bonus.
New gems worth getting
Slave Pens heroic - vivid chrysophrase - 5spell hit/6 stam -> 5 hit/6 stam
Shadow Labs heroic - 5 str/4hit - its slightly better then 5 agi/5 hit pyrestones, but i honestly didnt bother. Too little of a differnce, and it would actually "uncap" me for hit. even if 15 str > 15 agi +3 hit in spreadsheets, I just feel "better" with a true hit cap.
How are you arriving at 405 haste with that gear? Do you also have the Sliver or are counting the DST proc?
sliver/2xBoH/felfury alone is like 215 haste or so. Choker+fists+warharness is another 100.
I get 296 when adding it all up which is why I asked how you are arriving at that number. Sliver raises it to 350. Are you also using the crafted ring?
An Arms warrior who stacks a lot of crit (gems, axes, etc.) does dps that is probably too high in raid settings. We are looking at abilities that proc from crits and might change some of those.
Fury seems to have a problem where they can't convert rage into damage fast enough. This may be because everything is on cooldown or may be because they are missing specials too much with TG. We're trying a few different solutions to see what we like.
I'm only commenting on warriors here in a vacuum, not comparing them to other classes.
I'm scared.
Arms is working. I expect a nerf and probably even more rng.
Don't you feel the nerf incoming? seems their idea of making fury and arms equal (instead of buffing fury as it deserves).
Again we see warriors are compared to each other, but not with competitors for the same raid spot.
2 posts about warriors doing 4-5k dps (probably using a bug) and voilÃ*! new nerf inc.
I would like to know how hard is to implement a new (or old) attack => Enraged assaults.
Anybody else feels that we won't go live like this?
I don't think that post necessarily means the only solution they have to bringing Arms in parity with Fury is to nerf Arms. It sounds more like they'll be lowering Arms a bit, and raising up Fury a bit. Ghostcrawler explicitly stated in a different post that the entire weekend's logs were mostly bunk because of the crit exploit, so it would be unthinkable to have that awareness and still use those numbers as the basis for a nerf.
As a Fury Warrior looking forward to TG, I think GC has nailed one of the glaring problems with the spec. If it wasn't for Heroic Strike it would be impossible for a TG Warrior to make use of the massive amounts of rage that flow in, and that's in T4/Badge gear. I can only imagine rage comes close to a complete non-issue in T6. That said, I'm pensive concerning the solutions Ghostcrawler alluded to.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
I would like to know how hard is to implement a new (or old) attack => Enraged assaults.
Anybody else feels that we won't go live like this?
If they nerf arms it is because they are doing way more than other classes, not just fury warriors. GC made a post in another form that said they were with hunters on the top of most fights in 25 man Naxx. This is a balancing issue that needs to be addressed if Blizzard wants everyone to be equal.
I think what is going on here is that arms warriors and getting to stack full on crit, and fury warriors are now leaning towards hit. Both trees have on crit effects, but obviously when you are stacking crit they will work better than if you stack hit. Sudden Death will work really well if you have 50% crit, but only having 30% crit is going to hurt fury warriors and Flurry. Giving arms warriors another reason to stack something besides crit would probably fix their problems, but I don't see how they would pull that off.
As far as your quote though about EA, I am not sure that I want to see that come back. The idea was good, but fury doesn't have a lot of ways to get enraged enough to make it a boost for us over arms warriors. What I would like to see however though is a rage dump besides HS. Nothing with enraging, just a straight up rage dump. I was pondering a 50 rage point ability that would do an instant single target hit with both weapons. This way fury keeps their white hits for rage gen, and we can use that rage for some good solid single target dps, something we have always had some issue with compared to other melee DPS.
The problem is: warriors have always scaled excellently with gear. Usually lackluster when reaching max level, they become power houses with the best gear available. Right now, I find it easier and easier to top damage meters and I'm still lacking some of the sunwell gear.
It was obvious that deep wounds would go nuts with high level epics. You stack crit and get powerful weapons and that thing gets better and better. If warriors are only topped by hunters at this stage of beta, I'm sure they would leave everyone behind later on.
It's also great to hear that they are still working on TG (even though TG-builds will become exceedingly powerful, too, once they acquire deep wounds, impale and 2H-spec).
The only thing that really bothers me is raid utility. I don't know if Blizzard is unaware of the fact that a feral druid is the much better choice than a fury warrior. Both bring 5% crit, but the feral also offers a combat rez and the healing component of LotP. This doesn't eliminate raidstacking, on the contrary, it effectively kills the usefulness of dps warriors (of whom any sensible raid leader would always bring at least one because of BS + Solarian's and Blood Frenzy).
The problem is: warriors have always scaled excellently with gear. Usually lackluster when reaching max level, they become power houses with the best gear available. Right now, I find it easier and easier to top damage meters and I'm still lacking some of the sunwell gear.
It was obvious that deep wounds would go nuts with high level epics. You stack crit and get powerful weapons and that thing gets better and better. If warriors are only topped by hunters at this stage of beta, I'm sure they would leave everyone behind later on.
It's also great to hear that they are still working on TG (even though TG-builds will become exceedingly powerful, too, once they acquire deep wounds, impale and 2H-spec).
The only thing that really bothers me is raid utility. I don't know if Blizzard is unaware of the fact that a feral druid is the much better choice than a fury warrior. Both bring 5% crit, but the feral also offers a combat rez and the healing component of LotP. This doesn't eliminate raidstacking, on the contrary, it effectively kills the usefulness of dps warriors (of whom any sensible raid leader would always bring at least one because of BS + Solarian's and Blood Frenzy).
From what I am seeing now, a DPS warrior of some kind will always be needed, mainly for shouts. Commanding shout is the only good HP buff available since the warlock's imp only does about half of what CS can do. From that perspective, fury is a good case because we get improved shouts, and from what I can gather some arms people skip over that and get more in the arms tree instead.
In terms of druids, once DKs come into play who knows what the tanks will look like in a raid. Ferals don't bring a whole lot besides LotP and Mangle. And I'm still in the air as to how much Mangle's usefulness actually is to a 25 man.
I wouldn't sweat it to much man, we all bring something to the table, and there is still talk about dual-spec'ing as an option. Who knows maybe you could swap specs mid instance and OT something for your group just like a kitty spec'd druid would be able to. *shrug*
The frustration comes from the fact that the old concept of fury being top dpsr and arms "the mortal strike spec" always hurted the 2h playstyle.
They badly implemented WotLK fury tree and abilities making it boring even more, removing the 3rd button you had to press in a rotation.
Arms instead is really random and even if many dislike it, it requires you to react properly rather than doing a /castsequence and a random slam on BT crit (will it take a superheroe to react in 1.5 sec to a big yellow number rising after you pressed your macro? oh well you have much more than 1.5s amirite?).
Arms won't be able to stack so much crit and won't scale so good after what they are testing. And they are testing content that will take about 6 months to be on farm for the majority of raiding guilds (not casuals maybe, but hey, naxx is not so new).
Especially cause you will loose other stats like ap, ArP and haste, it's not free. But THEY made us only rely on crit:
- Bleeds aren't directly affected by Arp or haste
- ArP itself has been nerfed to oblivion (from an itemization pov not that it didnt deserve a change)
- Ap won't give use same benefit as a dual wielder since everything except execute is weapon based
- hit /expertise are cappable
- Slam scales inversely with haste
- Battle stance has 3% less crit
So, honestly, what should we stack as Arms after patch 3.0? Crit.
Steady targets are ok, but moving ones suddenly remove our ability to use slam, that is the only filler we have after MS.
Also i doubt we are getting many benefits ragewise from crit past 40-45%. We only have more chances to dump rage through execute and increase deep wounds damage that is somehow limited by the number of crits you can do.
Using every gcd an arms warrior can hit nearly once per second (white+specials). With 50% chances to crit you should crit every 2 seconds in theory. To increase this rate by a significant amount you have to crit 100% of the time.
We are also talking about an improvement mostly due to a talent that is easily obtainable by every warrior spec at level 80, so they should be worried about TG builds in high end rather than Arms that will experience a worse scaling (sicne i doubt you can go much over 60% crit).
I also should trust the same "blizzard internal team" that deleted EA "cause fury didnt have free gcd to spend on it".
I'm already seeing infinite rage scenario at entry level raids, that's the main difference between the past and wotlk.
Which spec will scale better? I'm quite sure it will be fury and not arms, since except crit, other stats give really few bonuses.
There would be many ways to tune the scaling.. deep wound dmg cap, SD internal cooldown, whatever, but I smell changes that will just hurt badly warriors at entry and mid level, while the high end will be out of their control.
They just messed up our dps trees so much that they can just do worse.
TBC showed this, vanilla showed this. Unless they plan from the start that warriors have a REAL unlimited resource pool I doubt they will be able to balance DPS warriors in any spec, and I'm also a bit tired of having to be a lootwhore to see results.
If I have to judge the changes they made to warriors I have to say they failed again in keeping us balanced.
Whatever will happen we will be stupidly useless until geared and overpowered (at least for pve) once we reach top level.
But think about it... we pay this with our weaknesses, it's not FREE.
This is my opinion, but I don't see warriors being OP just cause some of us topped charts in beta.
I apologize for the long post, but "nerfs" to warriors always scares me much. They can be something we have to deal with for months before things starts being normal again.
Arms: We are going to change Sudden Death to be based on a chance per hit and not a chance per crit. That shouldn't adversely affect their dps, but will also hopefully keep them from stacking nothing but crit. We do want to see warriors with swords and maces after all.
Fury: We are lowering the cooldown on Bloodthirst to 5 sec (from 6) and lowering the penalty on Titan's Grip to 12% (from 15%). Our hope is that with more BTs and more yellow hits connecting that the excess rage will drain away. The net dps increase will also help Fury catch up to Arms.
I was just reading that post indeed.
I don't see why if stacking crit scared them, making SD a proc on hit will resolve the issue.
Maybe was just about weapons (I smell a new sword as best weapon in game... again humans will be happy), but unless they nerf DWounds crit seems still a better stat.
Fury changes are good, 96 less hit rating to cap and some more BTs = more bloodsurge procs aswell.
So with 30% crit instead of a Slam every 18 sec, there will be 1 every 15, that should result in a ~3-5% damage increase
I love the now smooth fury rotation - it lasts 10 seconds and fits 2 BT and 1 WW without wasting any seconds due to overlapping cds. Also, this rotation gives you 3 free gcds. Enough for 2 (potential) slams and one shout/dw/bloodrage, whatever.
The Titan's Grip change is lovely, it was especially the final 3% that got me worried.
10/09/08, 11:03 AM
), but unless they nerf DWounds crit seems still a better stat.
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