WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 122

DarthGreg · 10/09/08, 9:47 PM

2xBT/1xWW cycles are gonna feel a lot better than than the awkward 5xBT/3xWW cycles Fury was facing, I will say that.

XereX · 10/10/08, 12:01 AM

Sudden Death: Your hits have a 30% chance of allowing the use of Execute regardless of the target's health state. In addition, you keep 10 rage after using Execute.

Dose the new version of Sudden Death, Proc from White, Yellow or Both hits?

Am I wrong in thinking/saying that this is a DPS increase for Arms Warrior (If it dose proc from White and Yellow hits)? We are still going to stack Crit but now we get a bigger benefit from haste; compare to before.

Keeping in mind the resilience and PvP, I think this change also made PvPing for Arm warrior much easier.

Zegai · 10/10/08, 12:20 AM

I doubt they'll keep the chance at 30%. Probably around 10% if it still procs from yellow hits, or 25-30% if it only procs from white hits.

Machinator · 10/10/08, 12:23 AM

So deep wounds should be a flat 48% of MH weapon damage every crit now since we dont lose ticks correct? My sheet puts crit > str now, do others get that as well?

Soloman · 10/10/08, 12:31 AM

Now if only they would simply make bloodsurge reduce the cast time of your next slam by 1.5s after any BT rather than only crit's it'd be golden.

XereX · 10/10/08, 1:11 AM

Originally Posted by Zegai

I doubt they'll keep the chance at 30%. Probably around 10% if it still procs from yellow hits, or 25-30% if it only procs from white hits.

I really don't want to say a number (since we don't know how SD was changed yet) but lets say SD was X% of Arms DPS. GC did say they don't want to Nerf the Arms DPS they just want them to go for other stats beside Crit and other weapons beside Axe. Lets assume they are true to their words and they do keep this X% the same.

There are two possible scenarios.

A) SD proc from White+Yellow hits, In this case 30% proc chance would give higher DPS% compare to old version.
B) SD proc from White hits alone, In this case 30% proc chance would give lower DPS% compare to old version. Considering Warrior Weapons are 3.6 to 3.8 speed (mainly)

gruumok · 10/10/08, 1:39 AM

sd proc on hit should make sword spec alittle more apealing but still not competitive with axe spec. now lets hope they give sword spec a little bit of a buff on its current form

Lasie · 10/10/08, 1:56 AM

If they feel that fury damage is low they should just up Bloodthirst to 60-75%. It's a little odd that whirlwind is doing better then our "main" attack.

Ryo Saeba · 10/10/08, 2:18 AM

I don't know you guys but I'm really confused about what will be my raidspec when the patch hits, so I'm here humbly looking for help.
Currently I'm a BF Warrior (except for some bossfights) and with my guild we've been on Muru for the past few weeks, probably we won't be able to kill him before the patch (I'm ashamed but it's the true) so I'm currently trying all kind of specs on the beta server to know that to do as soon as the new patch hits whitout wasting too much time around.

I'm usually the only dps warrior in raid, that's why I'm always specc'd BF, but with the new raidwide buff system in the next patch I can pick up whatever spec is the best for me dps-wise (we'll have both a feral and a combat rogue)... on the beta (when I was able to find a friendly shaman to party with) I tried mainly three specs:

1- Titan's Grip (10/51/0) with Torch of the Damned and Blade of Harbringer, using the old 17/44 rotation with Slam on BT crits and I found out it was quite cool dps wise, shining when BL is up.
Beside that, missing was very stressful and in my current gears (using Illidan's ring) I had only 200~ hit rating, so my dps was very random on every try.

2- Rend/OP/SD (51/10/0) with this one I had some problem... I still have the habit to follow my old slam rotation but I quickly ran out of rage, so I started using only MS and occasionally Slam, waiting for OP procs (from Rend) and SD.
The average dps was good, but I didn't find BL as good as in the TG spec, it was only a source of rage for SD procs.
It also happened to have no OP/SD procs sometimes, leading in a loss of DPS

3- SD+DW Axes (51/10/0) I even tried a SD build dual-wielding two Axes for more SW procs, but it wasn't so good as expected.

THIS is my armory profile: I have currently a lot of weapons/gears choice (up to 4/6 SWP) and badges in bank, if you could give me some tips they would be very apprecciated... I know that I'm askin the onebilliondollarquestion, but I hope someone can give me some good advice

Sepulture · 10/10/08, 2:47 AM

2- Rend/OP/SD (51/10/0) with this one I had some problem... I still have the habit to follow my old slam rotation but I quickly ran out of rage, so I started using only MS and occasionally Slam, waiting for OP procs (from Rend) and SD.
The average dps was good, but I didn't find BL as good as in the TG spec, it was only a source of rage for SD procs.
It also happened to have no OP/SD procs sometimes, leading in a loss of DPS

It requires an enhancement shaman and a few buffs to work properly, but this spec will generate far and away more damage than the other two. It requires a ton of rage to work properly. A better option for pure dps is 52/9/0. You only need 1 point in Unrelenting Assault. This reduces the cd on your overpower to 3 seconds, but rend only procs every 3 seconds, meaning Taste for Blood will only proc overpower once every 3 seconds anyway, unless you are starved for expertise and get a lot of dodges. I suppose you could take another point out of Armored to the Teeth to get 2/5 demo if you had to do it, but 5/5 demo would hurt your ability to dps pretty badly.

I was able to sustain 2,200 dps with an enhancement shaman. This was with no buffs, no consumables, no glyphs, and sword spec using Arp gear. I imagine with axes and maybe a shift of 100 rating from Arp and Str to Crit, you could easily have 2,400 dps sustained with just a shaman. I'm eager to get onto the PTR with a full set of raid buffs, a brutal gladiator axe, felspine or BoH to test it out.

The trick to playing the build is hierarchical:

1) Keep rend up 100% of the time, and refresh it right at the end of the duration.
2) If you have all of your instants (OP, Execute, and MS) up with enough rage to use them all (and you will because you'll get an autoattack in there), but the autoattack is still more than 1.5 seconds away, always choose MS first, then Execute, then OP. This is important and it takes some practice to get down.
3) Use slam to stall until something lights up, or MS comes off CD. Heroic strike is a last resort, I didn't use it at all.
4) If you are a little slow to learn, don't feel bad making a /castrandom execute, overpower macro and spamming the heck out of it. I tried it and my dps was nearly identical to hitting each button individually. The key is to use MS first, because execute will drop you so low on rage that you can't MS and OP doesn't burn enough rage to keep you below 100.

ZeTodu · 10/10/08, 3:10 AM

Originally Posted by Shha

Well my TG setup for 3.0

Helm of Illidari Shatt + 10hit+RED (socket bonus)
Hard Khorium Choker - 10 hit (socket bonus)
Pauldrons of Berserking - 5hit/5agi 10hit (socket bonus)
Warharness of Reckless Fury - 10hitx2+24ap (socket bonus)
Onslaught Bracers - 5hit/6stam(heroic gem, no bonus), Belt+Boots - both 10 hit (socket bonus)
Hard Khorium Battlefists -10hit/5str+crit(socket bonus)
Felfury Legplates - 5hit/6stam+5hit/5agi+10hit (socket bonus)

Thats it i think, oh wait the ninja star from sunwell (w/e its called) with 10 hit.

2x BOH

End stats 405 haste 311 hit (331 or cap with food).

So as you see you can gem for hit without losing any socket bonus.
New gems worth getting
Slave Pens heroic - vivid chrysophrase - 5spell hit/6 stam -> 5 hit/6 stam
Shadow Labs heroic - 5 str/4hit - its slightly better then 5 agi/5 hit pyrestones, but i honestly didnt bother. Too little of a differnce, and it would actually "uncap" me for hit. even if 15 str > 15 agi +3 hit in spreadsheets, I just feel "better" with a true hit cap.

My gear are almoust same - exept shoulders (t6 for me), legs (will use Brutal) and chest (Hard Khorium Battleplate)
Why you use 2xBOH - I plan to use S4 sword and Cataclysm.....

Bronwyn · 10/10/08, 4:07 AM

He'll use 2 x BoH because BoH is better than Cataclysm's by a fairly large amount and he probably doesn't have access to S4.

Gruntle · 10/10/08, 4:18 AM

Originally Posted by Machinator

So deep wounds should be a flat 48% of MH weapon damage every crit now since we dont lose ticks correct? My sheet puts crit > str now, do others get that as well?

At 80, with a Deep wounds build, crit comes out as the nr 1 stat for me too. Not without Deep wounds though, at 70 with an incite build crit is weaker than str and haste for me.

Incorporating the new changes to my sheet net me a 6% dps increase using a 2xBT/1xWW cycle. Nice and simple new rotation (although a bit boring, it would have been a lot more fun with a new instant than lower cd on BT).

ZeTodu · 10/10/08, 4:38 AM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

At 80, with a Deep wounds build, crit comes out as the nr 1 stat for me too. Not without Deep wounds though, at 70 with an incite build crit is weaker than str and haste for me.

Incorporating the new changes to my sheet net me a 6% dps increase using a 2xBT/1xWW cycle. Nice and simple new rotation (although a bit boring, it would have been a lot more fun with a new instant than lower cd on BT).

Did you give a prior to instant Slam or you use it after BT, WW

Shha · 10/10/08, 4:45 AM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

He'll use 2 x BoH because BoH is better than Cataclysm's by a fairly large amount and he probably doesn't have access to S4.

Pretty much right on the point. In fact BoH seems to be somewhat higher on dps then S4 (various models i went through always show BOH ahead but the margin varies from almost neglible to like 2% of dps), but S4 provides you with excellent survivability - dual S4 gives you 1800 hp? (dont rememebr stats from top of my head - but i think it was 75 stam) - thats a very visible boost to hp. Still like Bronwyn said I never had access to S4 sword, and in fact in this season I didnt even do enough arenas to cap my points ^_^.

ZeTodu · 10/10/08, 5:18 AM

Hard 4-5 days come for me then - must do allday long heroiks and kara - miss about 140 badges

Graul · 10/10/08, 5:55 AM

No idea if Blizzard will implement the SD, BT and TG changes before 3.0, but assuming they don't, how much more is TG going to actually scale raid buffed compared to SD? I notice about a 600 DPS increase just from being with an Enh Shaman and Ret Paladin as TG, but as SD I am consistently doing 300 more DPS (over solo TG) with just Battle Shout.

Gristle · 10/10/08, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by hellord

Fury changes are good, 96 less hit rating to cap and some more BTs = more bloodsurge procs aswell.

Sorry? I don't get this. Am I failing at Math, or does 3% less hit needed to cap = 45 hit rating? With the changes to TG, what will the new hit cap for "Damage dealing abilities that require a weapon" be? I'm probably missing something here.

Gruntle · 10/10/08, 6:31 AM

Originally Posted by ZeTodu

Did you give a prior to instant Slam or you use it after BT, WW

What do you mean? The Bloodsurge proc stays up for 5 seconds, that means that you can easily fit in the slam at any free gcd. E.g.

0.0 BT
1.5 WW
3.0 possible slam
4.5 <gcd, not used>
5.0 BT
6.5 possible slam
8.0 free gcd (DW, Bloodrage, Recklessness, Shout)
9.5 <gcd, not used>
10.0 cycle starts again.

ZeTodu · 10/10/08, 7:15 AM

3% hit = 47.31 hit reiting
You will need 21%, that means 18% from items and gems (3% from Precision)
18% = 283.86 hit to cap......

Khab · 10/10/08, 7:17 AM

I'm working on a model to compare the New Weapon Specializations

The Old Sword spec : 5% Extra attack, mean about 5%(or alittle more) Flat dmg increase

New Sword Spec with 6s Internal CD. Let's see how good or how bad is it.

Arm Warrior gonna use weapon around 3.5~3.8 speed . With WF, Haste on gears, haste buff(Pot, Drum, BL) his weapon speed can get down somewhere near 2.5s. It's very hard for a Arm Warrior to get below 2s swing speed.

With 2.5 Sec swing speed mean : in 6s max auto swing is 3.
In 6s, at least Arm Warrior gonna MS for 1

The DPS Circle of arm Warrior mostly included 1MS and 2 GCD for others attack (SD,OP,Slam)

Sumary : in 6s of Sword Spec Internal CD Arm Warrior can get about 6 Attack. And those 6 attack can't proc Sword Spec anymore. Let's see how do the 6s Internal CD nerf the sword spec .

1 Proc in 6 attack : 0.05 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 (0.95 = chance that attack not proc Sword Spec)
2 Proc in 6 attack : 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 (2 Proc, so dmg gain is X2)
3 Proc in 6 attack : 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 (X3)
4 Proc in 6 attack : 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.95 * 0.95 (X4)
5 Proc in 6 attack : 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.95 (X5)
6 continueous Proc 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 (X6)

The total chance of extra attack that the new sword spec prevent from proc : 0.0431 (4.31%)

This mean : the new sword spec nerf by 4.31% from the old one (the one without internal CD)

If the old sword spec give around 5% Flat dmg increase, the new one should give around 4.78% dmg increase .

After gather more data i'll try another model to see how do 5% Crit from Axe Spec and the new Mace spec doing to Arm Warrior DPS( but i doubt that Mace spec will ever be something useful)

And if Blizz won't change anything soon,i can tell without any maths that : 5% Crit mean alot than 5% dmg for Arm Warrior

Prinsesa · 10/10/08, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by Gristle

Sorry? I don't get this. Am I failing at Math, or does 3% less hit needed to cap = 45 hit rating? With the changes to TG, what will the new hit cap for "Damage dealing abilities that require a weapon" be? I'm probably missing something here.

At level 70, with Precision and Titan's Grip:

Your auto-attacks will have a (9% base + 15% DW penalty - 3% Precision) 21% miss rate. You will need 332 hit rating to hit-cap your auto-attacks.

Your specials will have an (9% base + 12% TG penalty - 3% Precision) 18% miss rate. You will need 284 hit rating to hit-cap your specials.

The change from a 15% to a 12% TG penalty saved you 48 hit rating, assuming you only want to cap on specials.

------

If you do not have Precision, you would need 379 hit rating to hit-cap your auto-attacks and 332 hit rating to hit-cap your specials. The change saved you 47 hit rating.

------

At level 80, with Precision and Titan's Grip:

You will need 689 hit rating to cap your auto-attacks and 591 hit rating to cap your specials. The change saved you 98 hit rating.

Without Precision, you will need 787 hit rating to cap your auto-attacks and 689 hit rating to cap your specials. The change saved you just as much hit rating with Precision.

Gruntle · 10/10/08, 8:04 AM

Prinsesa, the DW penalty is not 15%, but 19%. The hard cap for hit is 28% (or 395 rating with Precision@70). Your TG calculations are correct though.

Khab, that matches the calculations I have for sword spec. It should be noted that the current sword spec is worth a fair bit more than 5% damage though (each sword spec proc can crit for additional damage, and you get extra rage), I would estimate it to be around 7-8% damage. That is the reason why Sword spec is better than axe spec in live. I'm not convinced that Axe spec will be the best thing now when SD procs on hits rather than crits.

Ryo Saeba · 10/10/08, 8:47 AM

@ Sepulture: Thanks for your reply, I feel relieved.
I tried that spec with Sword Spec+ArP gears too and it felt good enough to let me think that with BOH or Felspine it can be way better, but since I see everyone is goin for TG I had some doubts... I'll probably go for this then since is closer to my BF playstile, I need to resocket everything tho, my BF gears were all ArP-oriented as you can see, I guess if swapping in some Brutal gear will be better than resocketting my T6 since AP doesn't scale so well with Arms abilities.

Also, what you think about Executioner and Mongoose? Now that I wont be near the ArP cap anymore I feel like the Mongoose uptime (and crit) could be slightly better than Executioner for an Arms build, anyone already tested it?
(I'm sorry if someone already asked this, a lot of replies goin through this topic)

Devimus · 10/10/08, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

I'm not convinced that Axe spec will be the best thing now when SD procs on hits rather than crits.

Although I agree axe spec has lost some of its lead over mace/sword, I still feel it is the spec to choose. With deep wounds making up such a large portion of your overall damage, the extra crit to keep deep wounds 'rolling' will keep axe spec ahead of the others.