I'm guessing the enchant is what's making the difference. Executioner has been consistently coming out as around 7-7.5% dps increase for me while Savagery is only at 1-2%.

What was your crit chance during the test? I simulated with 40% base crit (i.e before 5% from Axe spec) which might be a bit high for ArP gear. Higher crit rates benefit Axe spec more because of the 5% crit damage and 5% crit could make a difference.

The weapon quality probably also plays a minor role in the difference with Cat's having more raw dps and AP. The difference in my modeling was about 115 dps favoring Axe spec which looks pretty close to what you got assuming another 5% from the difference between Executioner and Savagery puts Axe at a 164.3 dps gain and Sword Spec being worth roughly 80 dps. The one major thing I didn't model very well was the rage gained from having Sword spec. I don't think I have enough of an idea as to how limiting rage is for the new "rotation" and how many free global cooldowns there are. If there's a lot of room for improvement via extra rage then maybe Sword will come closer to or even ahead of Axe spec but from what I gathered most gcd's are filled and more rage would generally be feeding higher Executes.

Doing a quick model of rage gained from Sword vs Axe, Sword would generate about 0.708 more rage per second than Axe would.

In order to do a quick "guess" of how much damage that would net you I calculated a damage per rage point for my previously used scenario and the rage generation from Sword spec would bring the difference between Sword and Axe to only a 1.383% dps difference in favor of Axe spec, granted that's still a pretty substantial difference for min/maxing, it likely won't be enough in most cases to outweigh one weapon being better than another. This is also assuming none of the rage generated from Sword spec is wasted by going over the limit and also that you can put that rage to damage at the exact same rate as all your other rage gained.

Edit: It'll be great once I can actually test this myself and figure out where things stand directly instead of via mathematical modeling.

Stats with the sword (with BS) are: 2600 AP, 23.22% ArP, 35.25% crit with Executioner
Stats with the Axe (BS + Savagery) are: 2622 AP, 16.75% ArP, 42.72% crit

Also, not sure how you model priority when it comes to Overpower and Mortal Strike. If Execute lights up and MS is about to come off cooldown then you MS, if OP lights up with Execute you Execute first then OP. If MS has two seconds or more before it's up and Execute is up you Execute otherwise Slam.

The below quote is from the Developer Q&A at Blizzcon, so even with the changes to fury and arms, looks like patch will definitely hit tuesday. I wonder what iteration of talents will hit live.

The Ashbringer storyline will continue, and you've only got a few days left to complete Atiesh from the old Nax. (= Patch 3.0.2 this week)

So shha you're going with TG at 70? I went on PTR and tested it and TG was consistently lower on the 70 test dummy then 1hd with deep wounds. And by a large margin even with over 300hit. Just don't see TG outperforming deep wounds at lvl 70.

Also i'm on beta and running naxx25, even fully raid buffed at 80, it seems my AP is at best even with my lvl 70 AP raid buffed because of losing out on BS and rampage. Which makes BT seem very very weak at 80. While many of the other class attacks and spells have gone up BT dmg seems to be stagnant or worse at lvl80. Especially after having to stack hit rating. BT definately need a %AP buff. Especially when conc blow and shockwave are at 75%AP.

My experience is the polar oppiste of yours TG was consistently out dpsing 1h DW by 200-300dps.

But it won't continue with the old one, if that's what you were implying :>

I bet they ninja it into the Tuesday release, if indeed it is on Tuesday. I'm a little scared that it may not make it.

Anyways, I did many hours of spread-sheeting and This is the SEP order I came up with for TG 2/51/8:

Hit/Exp capped
STR>ARP>AP>Crit>AGI>Haste>Hit

Standard fury gear can get the job done with great ease.

Nevermind.

66 talent points?

SEP capped TG, SW/T6 gear, brutal weps, no consumables, only raid synergy

Calculations missing minor things.. Running it at 2659 DPS without heroisms, drums, recklessness, or executes.

STR 1.0000
ArP 0.9800
AP 0.9091
Crit 0.8062
Agi 0.6520
Haste 0.6306 (this is low due to the abundance of +%Speed)
Hit 0.2432

Would it be possible to artificially get just below hit cap with otherwise the same stats to see the value of +hit when you're not TG-capped?

I think that's one of the most interesting stats, to find out how much you should sacrifice for +hit.
Or to make sure that you don't sacrifice too much just to get +hit.

This is the biggest problem I have with Fury right now. Nobody seems to really know what the sweet spot will be for Hit and it's tough to break the mentality that capping yellow hit is the best form of DPS. I was working out my gear today and after switching to Surefooted and Precise Strikes, I'm looking at needing to gem around nine Rigid Lionseye's to hit the soft hit cap. That'll cost me untold amounts of AP, ArP and Crit while being fairly expensive and inconvenient. I'm even sitting on a T6 Body token right now because I'm not convinced it'll be better than Heartshatter Breastplate come Tuesday.

The flipside to this is that Arms playstyle is extremely appealing to me. The concept of staying in Battle Stance, keeping Rend up and hitting Overpower and Execute as they light up in a talent tree built around glorious synergy seems such a refreshing change.

All the signs seem to point toward Arms being superior DPS too. I just feel like I'd be crazy to go through a lot of expense and hassle to be doing inferior damage.

Am I alone in this?

I dont get part about haste - how abundance of +%speed would LOWER the haste value? Its multiplicative not additive with haste, so the more nonhaste +%speed effects you have the better haste gets - simply because the participation of HS/White goes up. For me haste gets ahead of str easily atm - and thats with me being really high on haste as it is. Haste below Agi is really weird for a spec which has more participation of swing damage then old fury (mostly due to huge amount of hit).

Edit: I just cant really get how you can get such low results for haste. you say that hit value just before being hit capped is 1.4 or more per rating. And 1% hit just before capping yellow damage gives you:

1% increase in instant damage
1% increase in heroic damage
around 0.60% increase in white damage (due to just adding hit and not extra attacks that can crit)

1% haste increases :

around
0.8% increase in heroic damage
0.8% increase in white damage (those are values for having 25% speed from haste).

With my stats heroic/white and specials are about even on damage - meaning that haste should easily be worth around 1.6/2.6 = 0.61% of hit value.

0.61x1.41 =0.87 SEP.

Thats just math based on your other numbers - my personal results show haste at slightly above str actually, and hit even higher.

My simulator also shows TG easily being 200-300dps higher than 1h DW specs. 1h DW is kinda dead now. Arms is 2h, Fury 2x2h and Prot S&B.

I have the gear for both TG and Arms and I simply cannot bring myself to regem right now for TG when everything indicates that Arms is going to be superior for at least level 70 raiding. I've been doing random "tests" with the various specs daily usually buffed with only Battle Shout and Arms always came ahead by a clear margin. Ended up spending an hour or so with a guild Shaman and TG does in fact get a pretty huge boost when buffed (1650 buffless, 2290 with just the Shaman buffs) while Arms went from 1980 or so to 2488. Since I have zero experience with either spec being raid buffed or the effects of ArP I can't say with any certainty that Arms will be better, but unless they greatly nerf SD or Deep Wounds (or both) I just can't see TG even equalling Arms right now. On top of that I can honestly say that TG is extremely boring to play...virtually 65% of the interaction or so we have right now as Fury on live.

The real question is what version of both these trees will hit the live servers, will it be the current versions as per the PTR/Beta, or will it be the updated versions as per GC's post (SD changed to chance per hit and TG penalty reduced to 12% and BT to 5 second CD).

Does anyone have an idea of how it will be for arms, or if it will stay the same? With a 52/8/0 SD build, is armor pen still something we want to be going for?

I would like clarification on how the new ArP ratings work.

From what I understand, the ArP is percentage based, so if I ignore 10% armor, then I will ignore 100 armor on a target that has 1000 armor and I will ignore 10,000 armor on a 100,000 armor target.

Correct?

That is correct. And apparently it will be applied to the current amount of armor the target has.

E.g.
Felmyst has 6200 armor, if you have 20% armor pen, you will ignore 1240 armor.

However, once 5 SA have been applied, Felmyst has only 3600 left, so your 20% arp will only ignore 720 armor.

Executioner ignores a flat 840 armor, still.

If 2h spec or our enrage effects are affecting deep wounds twice, expect that to change if it hasn't already (could this be at least part of the damage drop off?). Mage ignites "double dipped" like this with +fire damage talents for a while, even after they nerfed the rolling ignite system. They fixed it, it was causing ignites to scale way too well.

Yeah, the ?? dummy definitely doesn't count as level 73 for a 70 player - do we know for certain that other "world" bosses count as +3 regardless of level? And that in instances/raids they count as +3 for every character, and not, say, 3 levels over the maximum level character in the instance or 3 levels over the first person to zone into an instance? Most likely just a bug with the ?? dummies, but world bosses might function a bit differently for whatever reason.

So does anyone know the Rage Conversion Value for level 80? I just took a guess and said 320.6 (274.7 for level 70).
Unfortunetly I don't get an answer in the EU forum.

It doesn't make haste worse Shha, you are missing the point of point stat comparisons. Yes more haste makes the other speed increase better because they are multiplicative.

You cant go around and do pencil/paper mathematics to try and determine the worth of one stat to another. You can however try and somewhat determine how much gain you will get out of an increase in X stat. It's always been if you increase the amount of one particular field, than the point for point value of a different field goes up accordingly. So imagine when you have flurry, haste rating, and speed increases through raid buffs stacking on to each other, to the effect of getting a kind of multiplier to your attack speed (1+haste)*(1+flurry)*(1+speed)*(1+mongoose)*(1+other). The majority of the juice is already there. Flurry and speed increases from raid grouping make up so much of a majority of this value, that haste rating is a very small part of it. All this whole haste equation is doing is hugely boosting the value of every other stat other than haste rating moreso than itself. This is why even agility is greater because there's a point where getting more bloodsurge procs and criticals on top of that huge haste increase is more important than getting more haste increase.

From an algebraic perspective, imagine the a function DPS(Str, Crit, Haste, Hit, Talents, Raid) instead of DPS(Haste)+DPS(Str)+DPS()+...

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...13/#post932405