WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 127

dr_AllCOM3 · 10/12/08, 7:20 PM

I'm making good progress with my simulator. Cleaned up the code, made small speed improvements (I don't think it can get any faster now

) and fixed some errors.
After adding some predefined cycles the basic warrior module should be good to go.

Originally Posted by landsoul

Combat Ratings at level 80

Thanks, I've missed it totally

.

Enkidu · 10/12/08, 7:31 PM

All of these screens are from tests I did that ran about 5 minutes, the crit rate is rather similar on all of them. Nothing here is conclusive nor am I pretending it to be, they're just here to help illustrate a point about how powerful deep wounds is currently, it can actually compete with TG.

All had the same gear except the last picture, which had better gear that was gemmed for hit (.07 away from yellow cap for the dummy).
ImageShack - Hosting :: fastohxq6.jpg
Fast offhand (Tracker's Blade).

ImageShack - Hosting :: slowohgs4.jpg
Slow offhand (Mounting Vengeance).

ImageShack - Hosting :: tg205hitgt9.jpg
TG with 205 hit (Apolyon + Cats).

ImageShack - Hosting :: tg267hitbq0.jpg
TG with slightly better gear and 267 hit.

ZeTodu · 10/12/08, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by Graul

On top of that I can honestly say that TG is extremely boring to play...virtually 65% of the interaction or so we have right now as Fury on live.

I am a 32 years old man and need some rest - 0/53/8 looks fine for me for next couple of weeks....

dr_AllCOM3 · 10/12/08, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by ZeTodu

I am a 32 years old man and need some rest - 0/53/8 looks fine for me for next couple of weeks....

Timing your Heroic Strikes will take more attention than you might like

.

Woj · 10/12/08, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

SEP capped TG, SW/T6 gear, brutal weps, no consumables, only raid synergy

Calculations missing minor things.. Running it at 2659 DPS without heroisms, drums, recklessness, or executes.

STR 1.0000
ArP 0.9800
AP 0.9091
Crit 0.8062
Agi 0.6520
Haste 0.6306 (this is low due to the abundance of +%Speed)
Hit 0.2432

so from these numbers cat's edge is a no brainer for tg, no?

Machinator · 10/12/08, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by Nethris

If 2h spec or our enrage effects are affecting deep wounds twice, expect that to change if it hasn't already (could this be at least part of the damage drop off?). Mage ignites "double dipped" like this with +fire damage talents for a while, even after they nerfed the rolling ignite system. They fixed it, it was causing ignites to scale way too well.

But is this how it is currently working or not? Not sure what is causing some disagreements on deep wound damage.

segaface · 10/12/08, 8:41 PM

Any opinions on the change to Imp. WW? A lot of my damage in 5/10 mans comes from Sweeping Strikes + WW, currently. I'm concerned that the loss of SS will hurt my DPS pretty badly. On the PTR with 0/51/8, and positioning myself where WW would hit both target dummies, it actually accounted for 10% more of my damage than BT:

So basically I should expect another 20k damage there. This is with 2221 AP, 167 HR, 33.96% crit, btw. Unbuffed, no glyphs.

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Timing your Heroic Strikes will take more attention than you might like

.

Yeah, especially right now without Imp HS. I'm usually pretty good at predicitng my rage generation and knowing if I can squeeze one in and still have rage for BT/WW, but the hit penalty and higher rage cost for HS kinda threw me off for a little while.

Khab · 10/12/08, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

My simulator also shows TG easily being 200-300dps higher than 1h DW specs. 1h DW is kinda dead now. Arms is 2h, Fury 2x2h and Prot S&B.

If you read this post a couple of page back. I did my TG and 1H Fury test and confirm about 1H Fury 200~300DPS lower than TG. But the trouble gonna be : 2/2 Warglaive Warrior can keep their Glaive and the set bonus will make up that 200~300DPS and they dont need to re-gem their gears.

The Haste proc and bonus AP VS Demon from Warglaive is big bonus. Consider that most fight in SWP you're fighting Demon.

Edit: I just wanna make my point clear again for 2/2Warglaive Warrior out there. I don't want some of them accidently read " 1H Fury is dead " and hastily re-gem their set for TG.

Originally Posted by Graul

I have the gear for both TG and Arms and I simply cannot bring myself to regem right now for TG when everything indicates that Arms is going to be superior for at least level 70 raiding. I've been doing random "tests" with the various specs daily usually buffed with only Battle Shout and Arms always came ahead by a clear margin. Ended up spending an hour or so with a guild Shaman and TG does in fact get a pretty huge boost when buffed (1650 buffless, 2290 with just the Shaman buffs) while Arms went from 1980 or so to 2488. Since I have zero experience with either spec being raid buffed or the effects of ArP I can't say with any certainty that Arms will be better, but unless they greatly nerf SD or Deep Wounds (or both) I just can't see TG even equalling Arms right now. On top of that I can honestly say that TG is extremely boring to play...virtually 65% of the interaction or so we have right now as Fury on live.

I have alot of data gathered and test performed for TG, and now i'm using my time for Arm models/tests . As far as my work progress, i can tell that Arm warrior have better Base DPS than TG ( that's about unbuffed test on Dummy)
But when it come to raiding senarior. Where you have 10% AP buff, Kings, Imp WF totem, 1/4 Drum up time, BL every 5min, 5Sunder+CoR/FF + BF............... TG Spec will bring you better number than Arm. All of TG spec stats seem to scale very well with raid synergy while some of the Arm spec large parital of DPS doesn't scale well with raid buff.

IE: on same gear lv my best TG Spec test bring me 2200 DPS on dummy
My best Arm test so far give me around 2300~2400DPS

According to my sheet, raid buffed and my TG Spec should be around 3200~3500DPS, but my Arm DPS will stay somewhere 3000.

I'll need to check and double check those model+sheet again and i'll post my result here.

xtreat · 10/12/08, 10:55 PM

So in the 0/53/8 specs are most of you leaving a point out of rampage considering most of us will have a feral in the raid?

Trynant · 10/12/08, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by xtreat

So in the 0/53/8 specs are most of you leaving a point out of rampage considering most of us will have a feral in the raid?

Rampage is probably going to be in a lot of 0/53/8 builds, and certainly later on for level 80 Fury specs. For soloing, 5 mans, 10 man runs and situations where you're more than 45 yards from the Feral druid (I'd imagine Gothik the Harvester would be an example of this scenario) Rampage will be useful. A build could probably be viable without Rampage, but I don't think it would be the norm.

dr_AllCOM3 · 10/13/08, 12:50 AM

Arms skills more or less finished. Did some testing with totally unoptimized gear, but I kept it the same for all tests.
Arms is almost as good as Fury, like 100dps less. But that was only a side result, since I was testing weapon specs (all with the same weapon). I let Sudden Death proc from autoattacks only.
Axe is more than twice as good as Sword or Mace (Sword is the worst).
Mace need to be 30% and Sword 15% (Yeah...) to get them on par. Axe without the Crit dmg bonus is still 50% better.
WotLK Beta (EU-English) Forums -> Weapon specializations.....

Graul · 10/13/08, 1:55 AM

Originally Posted by Khab

I have alot of data gathered and test performed for TG, and now i'm using my time for Arm models/tests . As far as my work progress, i can tell that Arm warrior have better Base DPS than TG ( that's about unbuffed test on Dummy)
But when it come to raiding senarior. Where you have 10% AP buff, Kings, Imp WF totem, 1/4 Drum up time, BL every 5min, 5Sunder+CoR/FF + BF............... TG Spec will bring you better number than Arm. All of TG spec stats seem to scale very well with raid synergy while some of the Arm spec large parital of DPS doesn't scale well with raid buff.

IE: on same gear lv my best TG Spec test bring me 2200 DPS on dummy
My best Arm test so far give me around 2300~2400DPS

According to my sheet, raid buffed and my TG Spec should be around 3200~3500DPS, but my Arm DPS will stay somewhere 3000.

I'll need to check and double check those model+sheet again and i'll post my result here.

I was actually flasked when we were doing the TG trial and unflasked with the Arms build. We also used Bloodlust with the TG build and not for Arms and Arms still pulled ahead. Besides that TG had Rampage up where as Arms is still waiting for LotP. What else is TG going to get from the raid that it does not already have besides a sundered boss and possibly Ferocious Inspiration, Sanctified Retribution and Swift Retribution all of which will affect Arms as well (maybe to a lesser extent but shouldn't be by much. Deep Wounds consistently made up 21% of my overall damage)?

Maybe the amount of time spent on each run skewed the results in favor of Arms? Each parse lasted around 15 minutes each. The main thing I've noticed between TG and Arms is that TG is more consistent (so maybe better on trash and extremely short fights) and Arms tends to need to "warm up" due to the randomness of it, but after it gets going it pretty much trumps everything I've seen TG do (Deep Wounds is a huge reason for this).

Shha · 10/13/08, 1:59 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

It doesn't make haste worse Shha, you are missing the point of point stat comparisons. Yes more haste makes the other speed increase better because they are multiplicative.

You cant go around and do pencil/paper mathematics to try and determine the worth of one stat to another. You can however try and somewhat determine how much gain you will get out of an increase in X stat. It's always been if you increase the amount of one particular field, than the point for point value of a different field goes up accordingly. So imagine when you have flurry, haste rating, and speed increases through raid buffs stacking on to each other, to the effect of getting a kind of multiplier to your attack speed (1+haste)*(1+flurry)*(1+speed)*(1+mongoose)*(1+other). The majority of the juice is already there. Flurry and speed increases from raid grouping make up so much of a majority of this value, that haste rating is a very small part of it. All this whole haste equation is doing is hugely boosting the value of every other stat other than haste rating moreso than itself. This is why even agility is greater because there's a point where getting more bloodsurge procs and criticals on top of that huge haste increase is more important than getting more haste increase.

From an algebraic perspective, imagine the a function DPS(Str, Crit, Haste, Hit, Talents, Raid) instead of DPS(Haste)+DPS(Str)+DPS()+...

Combat Ratings at level 80

Thats not true though. Haste is a DIFFERENT field then speed % effects. Yes it affects same field, but due to multiplicative value it can be treated as completely different entity. So sure, speed % increases value of other stats, but it increases haste the same - and actually slightly more, because it makes the "field" more important.

Look at very simplified example. WE have toon X who has two skills. A and B. A is affected by haste and crit (like melee/heroic), while B is affected only by crit. Assuming 0% haste and 0% crit and dps from A same as dps from B - we can easily see that crit effect is 1% dps for 1% crit. Haste dps effect is 1% of A and 0% of B - since they are even 1% haste increases dps by 0.5% in this scenario.

"SEP" values vs crit - crit = 1 haste = 0.5

Now lets put toon X under +speed effect that increases attack speed 100%. Then dps of A is now twice the dps of B.
Crit effect is still 1%. Haste effect is 1% of A and 0% of B. Since A is now double the B - haste effect is 0.66%.

"SEP" values vs crit - crit =1 haste =0.66

Speed effects INCREASE the relative value of haste. I just cant see how you can have it different way.

Now if you ADDED the haste to other speed effects, you would be right. But if you multiply there is something wrong.

• landsoul · 10/13/08, 2:35 AM

Collectively, haste, speed, mongoose, other speed increases are all in the same group, and are multiplicative onto eachother. You cannot increase the power of these effects without increasing the power of other stats to a greater height. I don't add haste to other effects, I multiply as I had stated in my counterargument. If I were to string together a total DPS equation (which is impossible, but just imagine) and displayed it on the screen here, you would see that haste does not appear as much as stats stronger than it.

Tankietka · 10/13/08, 6:38 AM

I was thinking about optimal usage of SD executes versus slam spamming, and got the following results:

Assumptions:
no glyphs
improved execute 2/2
level 70

bwd = 427 = base weapon dmg
ws = 3.6 = weapon speed
ap = 1811 = attack power
wd = 427+1811/14*3.6 = 892 = weapon damage

execute dmg = 865+0.2*ap+21*rage = 1227 + 21*rage
slam dmg = wd+140 = 892 + 140 = 1032

case 1
------
rage = 15
a) execute with 5 rage, rage left: 10
b) slam, rage left: 0

execute dmg = 1227+21*5 = 1332
slam dmg                = 1032

1332 + 10 rage vs 1032 = execute clearly better, more damage and even leftover rage

case 2
------
rage = 30
a) execute with 20 rage, rage left: 10
b) 2xslam, rage left: 0

execute dmg = 1227 + 21*20 = 1647
slam dmg    = 1032*2       = 2064

1647 + 10 rage vs 2064 = hard to say which is better without some simulations of what leftover rage is worth

case 3
------
rage = 40
a) execute with 30 rage, rage left: 10
b) 2xslam, rage left: 10

execute dmg = 1227 + 21*30 = 1857
slam dmg    = 1032*2       = 2064

1857 vs 2064 = slam is better

case 4
------
rage = 25
a) execute with 15 rage, rage left: 10
b) slam, rage left: 10

execute dmg = 1227 + 21*15 = 1542
slam = 1032

1542 vs 1032 = execute better

Conclusion:
For given ap/weapon dmg values (low-level gear):

Executing is better than slamming if rage is <= 25.

Slamming is better than execute if you have at least 40 rage.

For 25<rage<40 it is hard to definitely say which is better.

Of course many things are not accounted for, for example swing delay from slam which would make execute even better.

Gellor · 10/13/08, 7:19 AM

Originally Posted by xtreat

So in the 0/53/8 specs are most of you leaving a point out of rampage considering most of us will have a feral in the raid?

For me the saying "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it than not have it" sums it up nicely, you having it also provides teh raid with some redundancy if the feral bites the dust, esepcially if they are kitty dps rather than tank. And to be honest I expect most Sunwell bosses to almost fallover dead now.

Vulmio · 10/13/08, 8:08 AM

Originally Posted by Tankietka

I was thinking about optimal usage of SD executes versus slam spamming, and got the following results:

Assumptions:
no glyphs
improved execute 2/2
level 70

You can only have SD and imp exec at 70 if you put only 4 points in the tier 9 arms tree (and therefore only 1 in blood frenzy, or 0 if you take endless rage, and no wrecking crew), that sounds like a big loss just for imp exec.

ZeTodu · 10/13/08, 8:26 AM

Did someone do some calculation about imp.WW vs. Enrage for a TGr. build? I think 2-3 points on Enrage can be usefull for all fighst in SWP because of massive AOE dmg - exept Bruttalus!

Russta · 10/13/08, 8:26 AM

Something was posted a page or two back that got me thinking was the use of expertise for the new Arms build. Has anyone done any testing? I'd guess that expertise will still outweigh extra Overpowers but...

Grubsnik · 10/13/08, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by Tankietka

I was thinking about optimal usage of SD executes versus slam spamming, and got the following results:

Assumptions:
no glyphs
<snipped>
Conclusion:
For given ap/weapon dmg values (low-level gear):

Executing is better than slamming if rage is <= 25.

Slamming is better than execute if you have at least 40 rage.

For 25<rage<40 it is hard to definitely say which is better.

Of course many things are not accounted for, for example swing delay from slam which would make execute even better.

Not assuming the execute glyph is a little silly. It will be readily available once 3.02 lands. I did a spreadsheet a while back, mostly for comparing ability-uses.

Assumptions:
118.6 dps weapon
2111 AP (buffed, very low)
40% crit
26% haste (WF totem+blood frenzy)
glyph of revenge, not specced for imp execute (i'd rather take the top tier arms talents)

From a pure Damage per Rage comparison, you should execute when you have less than 44 rage, slam when you have 44 rage or more. If you compare the dps of abilities, Execute comes out ahead by a wide margin. For most cases, trying to slam down your rage bar, before executing isn't worth it. It's simply better to wait the ~0-1.36 (up to 2.86 - 1 GCD ) seconds before your next melee swing for rage, this also leaves a hole for refreshing a shout or reapplying rend to your target.

In the same comparison it's worth noting that even a fully talented and glyphed MS only becomes a better DPR rage dump when you have more than 67 rage. Essentially you want to be doing a priority queue something like this.

Execute (if you have less than 67 rage)
Overpower
Rend (if it needs reapplying)
Mortal strike (if you need to dump rage = have more than 67 rage)
Execute (any rage, if MS is on cooldown)
Slam
Heroic strike (final rage dump, only if you are going to waste rage by going < 100)

Tankietka · 10/13/08, 9:38 AM

@Vulmio

What I meant by level 70 is damage values for Execute and Slam. Wasn't looking into whether such build will be possible/viable at level 70.

@Grubsnik

We still don't know Slam glyph, unless I missed it - possibly can change priorities a bit :-).

Gellor · 10/13/08, 9:49 AM

Has anyone nailed down with TG build will provide max dps at 70? Are you better off having 2 points in Imp execute and no bloodsurge, and a few points in Imp HS or having Bloodsurge and only 1 point in Imp Excute or not pick up rampage at all and have Bloodsurge and 2 in Imp Execute with the expectation of 100% feral druid attendance and survivability?

Builds:

53/08

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12053120500351

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12053120501351

or 2/51/08

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12053120501051

Are there any other builds i've missed? Which of the three would be best? Assuming Major Glyphs of HS and Execute.

My personal preference is for the 2nd 53/8 build, but that's just because it makes the rotation busier and I have to keep a look out for Instant Slam procs, which makes dpsing less monotonous. I guess the quest is are 13 rage HS and +3 rage per execute going to bring more dps than 6 or so Instant slams per minute on boss fights.

I'm getting 6 slams per minute from the revised 5 second CD on BT, and the fact raid buffed at 70 I will be sitting at approx 58% crit (60/5)*58%=6.96 which i rounded down.

Grubsnik · 10/13/08, 10:21 AM

Biggest change i could see coming to slam was that it's casttime also got lowered by haste. That wouldn't really change anything though, but it would help it scale with haste.

Currently Slam is the bread and butter of Arms, buffing it with a glyph really isn't needed. Already now i'm mostly considering MS to be a pvp talent.

Vulmio · 10/13/08, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Tankietka

@Vulmio

What I meant by level 70 is damage values for Execute and Slam. Wasn't looking into whether such build will be possible/viable at level 70.

I still believe it was worth mentioning

Your maths are probably 100% accurate, I didn't check them, but you are stating conclusions which can be misleading for people thinking they can build a viable template meeting your assumptions, or you could lead people (like me) to believe that such a template is viable since you are making the effort to elaborate all the maths about it (something like "wow that man on elitistjerks made some great work I should try it").
I don't write this to offend you, I actually thank you and everyone here who are taking the time to think about all this.

Bronwyn · 10/13/08, 10:25 AM

I seriously don't understand deep wounds. Right now I am testing 15/46/0. My MH is an S3 1H-Sword, weapon damage is 214-322, with AP included it's 629-738.

My DW ticks for 87 after a single crit (no mangle/trauma up). 87 * 6 = 522. Now how is that 48% of anything?