Could be your not allowing for Impale. Apparently it;s "double dipping", 20% extra damage on the crit, and then applying again on the deep wounds as well. I think shha posted on this a few pages back.
Edit: even allowing for this i can't get to 522 DW damage. We're there any ptehr debuffs on the mob you tested?
Best use of execute is when you can have a white swing between execute itself and the end of its gcd, so you will have 10+whiteSwingRage to continue your rotation.
A swingbar is very useful to catch the right moment to use it. The window of opportunity of SD is quite long anyway.
As example you have 60 rage just hit with a swing (3s speed) and you have both execute and MS up you ofc prioritize MS burning 30 rage on execute after it.
If you are midswing and use MS, your execute will fall after next swing leaving you with 10 rage for around 2 gcds.
If you just prioritize Execute in that case you'd burn a 60 rage exec and delay MS by a gcd.
Overpower is a good move to keep after an execute (since you cant alawys time it correctly) or you can intentionally burn all rage before a shout/rend refresh.
If just Mocking blow had a glyph that REMOVED its threat component you would have a cheap weapon damage every minute (useful when you do a bad execute)... Anyway if the mob is untauntable it's better than staring at your rage bar for seconds.
Without a swingbar you can't time your istants with white hits, and unless you have an external source of rage you can get starved quite easily.
EDIT: There is not a "perfect" rotation for arms since it mostly depends on how you feed your rotation, being as close as possible to use every GCD. Timing the rotation with swings is the best way to ensure you use proper abilities at proper times 1-2 gcd ahead.
I don't write this to offend you, I actually thank you and everyone here who are taking the time to think about all this.
No problem, maybe I was too vague about details indeed. And by no means I think I'm 'I know it all' guy, I'm just writing about what I find interesting :-)
Could be your not allowing for Impale. Apparently it;s "double dipping", 20% extra damage on the crit, and then applying again on the deep wounds as well. I think shha posted on this a few pages back.
Edit: even allowing for this i can't get to 522 DW damage. We're there any ptehr debuffs on the mob you tested?
It's 80 per tick without BS and 87 per tick with BS up. There were no other debuffs on the testdummy, but I just realized that I had two sharpening stones (+24 weapon damage). Still, seems too high.
Not sure if anyone tested it like this. Basically I abused the "bug" (or w/e its called) where after unspeccing TG you still remain with 2x2h until you zone/log etc. Not a very useful bug for actual play , but it let me test some stuff on dummies.
Basically my question was "How would TG perform with top-line gear vs arms". Obviously noone has "top gear" on beta, its all equivalent of "t4" sort of.
So I took my lvl 70 toon with sunwell gear, and got some friends to test dps. Basically i tested :
53/8/0 Arms
0/53/8 TG
19/42 TG ("bugged") - missing 1 point in bloodsurge, 5 points in unending wrath, 3 points in intensify rage. 1 point inTG if i recall. Still using 2x2h (hit capped too, since i wasnt sure how TG penalty would behave after unspeccing - no misses anyway).
I had 2 sets of gear for TG and Arms, so its not like I played arms with hit cap etc.
Anyway sparing exact numbers since they varied based on who helped me testing etc.
Without Raid buffs, Arms was around 2100 dps, TG around 1900. If i payed a little less attention both dropped by around 100dps (to "emulate" some intense raid stuff going on). I still Sundered mobs however - which was a bigger burden to arms (taking valuable gcds), then fury.
With Raid buffs/consumables both peaked to around 2800 dps for me. A bit surprising given how TG "buff" rampage is sort of wasted, so arms gets 5% more crits from buffs.... Yet TG caught up and it seems at sunwell level both are comparable.
However then I tested the "bugged" TG.
2600 dps - not raid buffed
4400 - raid buffed
The power of arms talents you get on the way to 80 is that big.
Anyway Im just wondering how such results can impact thinking in terms of wotlk. It seems to me fury will reign over arms really easy once you attain really high end gear. And that the damage difference might be huge.
I'm testing it currently, did you have any kind of buffs at all? Are you sure it was only 1 crit?
My damage range is 684-804 without shout and my deep wounds tick for 59, as expected. I tried specing into Improved Rend but that wasn't it either.
Edit: Deathwish does double dip into deep wounds, but the numbers still don't seem to add up still unless you had some trinket proc.
Anyway Im just wondering how such results can impact thinking in terms of wotlk. It seems to me fury will reign over arms really easy once you attain really high end gear. And that the damage difference might be huge.
That is what my simulator shows. Once you get Deep Wounds for Fury it's better and scales better. This is including the coming Fury buffs and Arms nerfs.
What exactly are these unseen TG buffs and Arms nerfs? I have heard rumors that SD is going to change to an "on hit" proc with unknown mechanics. Are they changing the penalty with TG? This seems like an awful lot of speculation.
The PTR still has the unnerfed Arms tree. I'm assuming that this is what will be going in on Tuesday. Does anyone have a combat log or even a recount screenshot of TG doing more dps than arms at 70? I have yet to see one and I remain unconvinced that TG will overtake arms before L80 until I do. I tested arms pretty thoroughly on the PTR and with an enhancement shaman it puts out rogueish dps.
I'm skeptical that ole' Bliz would ask us to regem and regear almost our entire set at L70 for TG when the expansion is so close. I think it's more likely that arms will remain king for L70 and the nerfs and buffs will go in with WoTLK so they are in place at L80.
- Impale - with crit rate above 55% easily now in raids (reaching 60%) crits contribute toaround 75% of my damage (non bleed). Given how yellow there is 66% or so, crits = 50% damage. impale 2 points are worth 5% dps.
- Deep Wound is worth 20% dps
- 2h spec is worth a bit more then 6% dps, closer to 7 due to rage generation and double dipping on bleeds etc.
The 8 points (DW/Impale/2h Spec) are "worth" over 32% damage. Thats the only reason fury doesnt skyrocket at 70.
Now ignoring other classes (since i dont have enough knowledge there), and just focusing on arms vs fury. I can see a major imbalance coming. Come few more raids everyone will be Fury and either they add a raid buff to Arms (cough cough), or Arms will die off.
Arms scales extremely poor with haste due to slams .
Arms scales extremely poor with hit due to easily reached cap - even without trying
Arms scales poorly with ArP due to more bleed effect contribution (rend etc).
Arms scales poorly with crit after certain point is reached (not yet on beta, but soon). After 50% crit your overpower stops benefitting from crit. Huge crit % also devaluates crit value.
Arms scales normally with AP.
where as
Fury Scales well with hit until large values - probably hit will always remain an useful stat due to sockets. Early on you will socket all hit, then replace it with other stats as you gain natural hit
Fury Scales well with crit - In fact better then arms since Flurry still benefits from crit, and with large crit Bloodsurge starts to be really nice.
Fury Scales better with AP then arms due to BT contribution
Fury Scales "normally" with haste - in fact due to heroic mechanics a bit better then average melee
Fury Scales slightly better then Arms with ArP
In short Fury scales very well with 4 stats and ok with 5th. Arms scales ok with 1 (ap) , very well with 1 (crit) until certain point then quickly diminishes, and poorly with 3. On top of that even stuff Arms scale well with , Fury does better.
So if even in naxx Arms is ahead of Fury somewhat , I think in Long run its Arms that need help.
Obvious choices would be to make haste/speed effects affect Slam cast to allow better scaling with those. Buff bleeds damage, but make them affected by armor when applying maybe?
What exactly are these unseen TG buffs and Arms nerfs? I have heard rumors that SD is going to change to an "on hit" proc with unknown mechanics. Are they changing the penalty with TG? This seems like an awful lot of speculation.
Obvious choices would be to make haste/speed effects affect Slam cast to allow better scaling with those. Buff bleeds damage, but make them affected by armor when applying maybe?
Arms needs a serious buff. Fury scales so much better, no one will be Arms in PvE with lvevl 80 at the moment.
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting
I uploaded my simulator by myself. WoWInterface is somewhat busy right now.
Edit: As soon as I do this WoWInterface works .
(Let me preface this post by saying that I am not well versed in theorycraft, and have not had time to read this entire thread. I apologize in advance if my questions seem foolish, or if they've already been answered upthread. If any of my questions have already been answered, a link to the answer would be greatly appreciated. Also, if this is the wrong thread to post this question, I will happily repost it elsewhere.)
I'm just returning to WoW after a three month hiatus, and apparently I haven't been keeping up with 3.0 developments well enough, because I am totally confused about the new Fury tree. I'm hearing a lot of conflicting reports about Fury's place in the new environment, and I don't know how to develop my character.
Ghostheart is an undead fury/prot warrior (0/47/14), used exclusively for PvE, dungeons and raiding. I really like the character as she now stand - I do really solid DPS and can still effectively offtank as needed. I'm really excited about Titan's Grip, though, so I'm thinking of downplaying my Prot talents to focus on DPS. However, I have a number of questions regarding TG (and other fury talents), and I haven't been able to find a clear answer.
1) Is Titan's Grip worth getting? I've been hearing some reports that it provides a minimal DPS boost, and that the fury tree is not worth pursuing beyond Rampage.
2) Assuming TG is a worthwhile power to get, what would be the optimal build for a TG fury warrior? Based on my old build, I created this build, but I just don't know enough about the changes in 3.0 to make a reliable judgement. What talents am I missing, and what talents are duds?
3)I don't know how rage will be generated in this new setup. Will I generate too much rage, or too little? Do I still need unbridled wrath?
4) What would be a good weapon combination? I was intending on using two 2-handed weapons (specifically Goremaul and The Oathkeeper to start), but I've heard that it might be more efficient to keep a fast 1-handed weapon in the offhand. Should I stick with Mongoose/Executioner for enchantments, or switch to double Savagery?
5) I don't currently use slam during battle; with the fast weapons I used, it didn't seem worth using. Should I be using it in 3.0, with the much slower 2h weapons? If so, what would be the best way to cycle my attacks, and should I get bloodsurge?
Any advice you guys have in this regard would really be appreciated!
Arms: We are going to change Sudden Death to be based on a chance per hit and not a chance per crit. That shouldn't adversely affect their dps, but will also hopefully keep them from stacking nothing but crit. We do want to see warriors with swords and maces after all.
Fury: We are lowering the cooldown on Bloodthirst to 5 sec (from 6) and lowering the penalty on Titan's Grip to 12% (from 15%). Our hope is that with more BTs and more yellow hits connecting that the excess rage will drain away. The net dps increase will also help Fury catch up to Arms.
I understand that many of you suggested a new attack for Fury. That is a pretty major change so we want to make sure it's needed (for Lich King ship -- we could always add it as a later patch). We would need to reorganize the tree, adjust trainers, perhaps change other talents to affect it, perhaps change glyphs, and all of that assumes we get the numbers close on the first attempt. More than likely it would take a lot of iteration. So, it's still on the table, but it's a last resort for now and something we will definitely consider at a later date.
Those comments are from 10/9 and the PTR doesn't reflect them. If they patch on 10/14 my guess is that the changes don't go in before WoTLK. If they push out 3.0 until 10/21 (which is looking more and more likely) all bets are off.
All things being equal, I enjoyed playing Arms OP/Execute far more than Titan's Nappytime once I got the muscle memory for it. There's something exciting about getting a huge RNG string of Executes and Overpowers following a MS. The reactive warnings popping up are fun, the big numbers are fun, the "oh crap" factor on the threat meters is fun. Seeing your dps go from 1500 to 2500+ in an instant is a blast. It's a build that really keeps you awake and paying attention; it's a rush.
I hope that they wait until WoTLK for this change so they can build in an additional attack to the TG rotation. My greatest fear is that they put in another 30 second rampagesque buff to keep us occupied, but I don't think that they will do that again.
Most people are assuming patch is tomorrow purely from comments made at Blizzcon. Specifically the only have a few days left to complete the atiesh quest, implying the patch is tuesday.
Collectively, haste, speed, mongoose, other speed increases are all in the same group, and are multiplicative onto eachother. You cannot increase the power of these effects without increasing the power of other stats to a greater height. I don't add haste to other effects, I multiply as I had stated in my counterargument. If I were to string together a total DPS equation (which is impossible, but just imagine) and displayed it on the screen here, you would see that haste does not appear as much as stats stronger than it.
The "total dps equation" is what we model with spreadsheets. While I agree that adding haste will also affect the other stats it is more complicated than that. Haste adds a lot more rage generation than crit does, thus haste will grow in importance as you add more of it. Also, the fact is that having 23ish% haste from buffs will make each point of haste 23% more valuable. I'm consistently getting a lot higher values for haste than you landsoul, and I can't quite figure out why, likely it's that we model rage generation and usage of HS differently.
My ratings for different stats is quite different from yours landsoul. Assuming exp capped but not hit capped at 70 (53/8) vs a 7700 boss I get (with 45% crit fully buffed):
hit>haste>str>ArP>crit >agi
vs a 6200 boss:
hit>haste>str>crit>ArP>agi
As I mentioned in a post before I think the high value of haste is slightly unrealistic (it assumes that all the rage you get is converted into HS), but it certainly won't become worse than agi (a more realistic position is somewhere equal to crit).
Getting hit capped might change things slightly though since crit gains with hit because of the 2-roll system fro specials. Everyone really need to realise that ArP now works completely differently and is now more valuable vs high armor bosses than the other way around (as it is in live).
About enchants, I really don't understand how you can get significantly higher dps from Executioner than from Mongoose (it may be slightly better for 6200 bosses, but not a factor of 2 that Voxx was getting). What armor does the target dummies have, does anyone know? Unless we know that it's kind of pointless to try Executioner at all on them.
So what are we looking at here for arms warriors? Any change of gear stats? Haste becoming more valuable for arms? Just keeping Deep Wounds, Rend, and then hitting Overpower and Sudden death when they proc and keeping MS on cooldown? Just trying to get a summary with patch day tomorrow?
Okay, I'm just curious even though we don't know how sudden death is going to change or even if it is, since they only said they are looking into it, why people think arms is going to suddenly not scale. Screw slam, stack enough haste and go for Heroic strike. With the Heroic Strike Glyph giving 10 rage everytime you crit and with OP costing 5 and Rend 10, it seems to me that you are going to be able to chain together and sustain some impressive yellow damage without slam. I would get enough hit so my yellows do not miss, then stack haste and crit and go to town. At least That's my theory.
I have also not heard anyone talk about how that druid debuff that increases bleed damage is going to help out our bleed dots either.
Oh, and it would appear that sudden death is going to be a much better rage dump than slam ever was, and if they change it to "on hit" then it seems to me that haste is going to become even more important for arms as frequency is going to be a big issue.
I haven't done the math, so I could be way off base, but I have a feeling that because arms isnt' going to have to sink 600 or so into hit rating, that with the haste and crit rating they get instead they will probubly be able to keep up with fury if not do better. But I dunno.
You know, I've not heard a single mention of Bladestorm in any rotation or in any form. Is it really that bad right now unless you're in some extreme AoE situation?
Well as far as blade storm goes, It's 6 whirlwinds in 6 seconds fo 25 rage and you also get to do white attacks during it. So the way I see it working is, Bloodrage, white attack, rend, ms, Blade storm, MS, HS, or OP depending on what goes on with your rend ticks. Anyway, I fail to see how 6 yellow attacks for 25 rage is horrible.
btw the last time I used bladestorm I was in WG and got killed 2 seconds after I poped it, it was shortly after they "fixed" it. I haven't raided Arms in the beta yet, so largely I have no clue what I am talking about, however looking at it from a mechanic stand point, it looks like it might have some potential.
You know, I've not heard a single mention of Bladestorm in any rotation or in any form. Is it really that bad right now unless you're in some extreme AoE situation?
I used it everytime it's up right after an Execute. It's also nice when Blood Fury is available to use with it as well.
You can't have TG and a weapon spec, only 2h spec.
Originally Posted by Russta
You know, I've not heard a single mention of Bladestorm in any rotation or in any form. Is it really that bad right now unless you're in some extreme AoE situation?
I've been really confused why bladestorm is a 51 point talent. In PvP the class just moves out of my hit area and it goes to waste. They need to make movement speed +50% to make it viable.
Second of all, it's an AOE ability. Raiding Arms warriors would like something more than a 3 minute AOE ability. Bladestorm is far from powerful.
In a way i like the Bladestorm and arms design much more.
41-51 point talents were rarely a gamebreaking dps increases. It was always a gimmick like bladestorm for almost any class. A cooldown like Dragons Breath or WE - sometimes they have impact sometimes doesnt. But in most cases its sometimes that isnt a flat passive modifier to dps. Rogues would be an exception and prot tree but its true for most classes. How does Slow up dps etc.
However almost every class has the n-1 tier talent made into their major dps booster. Empowered spells for mages, Combat Potency, Imp zerker stance, Serpent Swiftness etc. Arms follows this trend. You get gimmick at 51 - you can viably spec arms without it, yet its still nice to have. But your 46-50 talents are the "meat" of the tree. Wrecking crew is as good as it gets really (serpent swiftness was better at 70... well but it was generally considered overpowered).
Fury gets the "meat" in 51 pointer - and guess what? Its "counterbalanced" because "its just 1 talent". So you would think our 46-50 would be good? Nope Unending Fury is still most lackluster dps talent warriors have (competing with unbridled wrath which is worse i gues - but its hardly a REAL "dps talent" imo).
Now I'm aware what I said few posts before - despite all the crying from Fury, it WILL be good at 80 once people get really geared - perhaps too good. Still the talent is lackluster however.
Another thing concerning me with current state of fury is simple. Its weak now. Its weak at 70, its weak at 80. It WILL get good at 80 once you get geared but i see a problem with it.
For one its annoying that every expansion warriors "get to wait" , and only start doing well towards end in dps. For two, Im afraid TG is TOO good, which simply means that after suffering for 6 months of bad fury, we will get to start having fun and then immediately get nerfed :P.
Still can't see a use for Vigilance in anything I'm doing. Shockwave may not be neccessary to raid, but it'll be fun to test out. Everything else is almost mandatory. Yes I know I took out 2 points of dodge, not much else I can strip off, thank god I have the trinket from Bloodboil and the neck from RoS.
Ok so is the general consensus that at lvl 70 an Arms spec is better than a Fury/TG spec? And at 80 Fury/TG is much better due to scalability when you get some Arms talents in there aswell? (As it is now, things might change)
I will undoubtedly be Arms when 3.0 comes as I don't have a second good 2h. And I'm wondering if this spec is the way to go. Is Sudden Death incorporable into the usual dps rotation, and will it provide a dps increase or decrease?
As far as I know atm on sub-20% targets, the usual rotation still yields more dps than execute spam.
Then there's also the question about switching between zerkerstance and battlestance to use Overpower? Is this a severe decrease due to rage loss as opposed to ignoring all the overpower opportunities? If so the build above can remove several points from Overpower enhancing talents.
On another note, Im not 100% convinced about Bladestorm. If you ditch Trauma (Ferals are a given in 25 man imo) and go with 1 point in Unrelenting Assault, You can get 50/21 spec quiet easily. You will need to sacrifice one of :
Point in BF - if you have a rogue it doesnt matter for raid, for you its around 2% less white damage due to slam usage. Given how white is only close to 25% of arms dps, thats 0.5% dps loss
Point in Sudden Death. Not sure yet how to model it, but IF it proves to be better choice then BF then just drop point there
And instead get Deathwish + imp shouts + booming voice, or demo etc . But mostly deathwish - aka 3.33 % dps increase even used without good cds etc. Even better with bleeds who double dip into it. Counting at 3.33% dps vs 0.5% dps loss from BF point its still close to 3% dps increase. Im almost sure using bladestorm wont give you as much.
10/13/08, 10:32 AM
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